Dragon Age Origins

[213374U]

You can make that call. Feel free to boot anyone that dies from the party.

Before or after they magically get up a while after receiving the coup de grace?

 

Just because I can "pretend" there's consequences to death in the game it doesn't mean those consequences are real.

[Tigranes]

No, because the game would have to be built around the death system.

[alanschu]

But the part of the game shown in the video didn't seem particularly hard at all.

 

 

It's not. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if people occasionally wipe there, especially on harder difficulties.

 

There are some fights that are significantly more difficult and some of them even earlier in the game than the point shown in the game. I think that there will be an adjustment period for a lot of people because they'll go into it KOTOR or Mass Effect style where death is pretty much impossible.

 

It's not uncommon to have people drop in battle throughout the game though, and permanent death would mean a lot of reloading for people.

[Volourn]

"it KOTOR or Mass Effect style where death is pretty much impossible."

 

ME isn't super hard; but it's no KOTOR when it comes to easiness. You besmirch it comapring it to the overrated KOTOR espicially in terms of diffculty.

 

 

DA loses alot of points because of its regenative crap, and super duper hardness to die (just like NWN2, KOTOR series, and ME).

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

The wind in that Giant Bomb preview is terribly ugly.

[Volourn]

How can the wind be ugly?

[aries101]

Maybe it's the animations of the wind that is ugly?

 

At least we now have a decent video walkthrough of part of a level in DA: Origins, we have gotten to see the inevntory and other systems in the game, too. Very nice

 

edit:

 

On this whole death system being implemented in DA: Origins I like it. I hated when my main character in BG1+2 died, the game was over - even if 3 of my other party members were still at their feet. It is not like in Dungeon Siege where you just get up and are healed; you will suffer severe injuries that will last until they are treated, by going back to camp or untill they are treated.

Edited October 11, 2009 by aries101

[213374U]

No, because the game would have to be built around the death system.

Hardly anything so dramatic. Was BG built around the death system? They simply accounted for the fact that X or Y may die if you were careless, and not be present for interjection with Z. I may be inclined to think they actually promoted NPC deaths, the way some were written...

 

 

There are some fights that are significantly more difficult and some of them even earlier in the game than the point shown in the game. I think that there will be an adjustment period for a lot of people because they'll go into it KOTOR or Mass Effect style where death is pretty much impossible.

 

It's not uncommon to have people drop in battle throughout the game though, and permanent death would mean a lot of reloading for people.

I don't know man, a central part of the fun in games that aim to have a strategy component is the looming consequences for bad calls. If you screw up, you learn, you get better. If the game doesn't have a way of telling you "charging the Adamantine golem may not be the smartest approach", there is no learning curve -- it's a plateau. The player will not refine his tactics, as there's no need. And when the big climactic fight comes, the player will wipe and blame the crappy encounter design, the terrible difficulty curve, or whatever. Or, conversely, the big climactic fight will not be quite so climactic from a gameplay standpoint, and beating the game will feel hollow and pointless. This is the approach taken by BIO ever since BG2.

 

Remember Dave Gaider's Ascension?

 

 

I hated when my main character in BG1+2 died, the game was over - even if 3 of my other party members were still at their feet.

Yeah, that was pretty silly. Edited October 11, 2009 by 213374U

[HoonDing]

On this whole death system being implemented in DA: Origins I like it. I hated when my main character in BG1+2 died, the game was over - even if 3 of my other party members were still at their feet. It is not like in Dungeon Siege where you just get up and are healed; you will suffer severe injuries that will last until they are treated, by going back to camp or untill they are treated.

It is possible to suffer debilitating wounds during combat?

[Monte Carlo]

^ That's how they manage it in DA - if you get killed you suffer a passive penalty to a stat from a significant injury, a bit like a spell effect from D&D like disease (etc).

 

I sort of mitigates against the crappy no-death system. Like the man said, Bioware combat for the past few games has been like it's cutscenes - a given.

 

Having said that, if there's no resurrection or raise dead in DA it's the least worst solution - I'm expecting modders to rectify all the console twitch-boy compromises pretty soon, like they do with almost every other PC game out there. By early New Year there will be total conversions, perma-death patches, make-it-more-like-D&D mods and all the rest of it. This is one of the exciting things about the game.

 

I've pre-ordered it, I'll be getting it a few days after the US forumites so I'll be going dark from release date

 

Cheers

MC

[Monte Carlo]

P.S. Why is the addition of a dynamic, meaningful difficulty slider so difficult for developers? There are a gazillion options for camera / gore / graphics / etc. Why not the same for difficulty as opposed to EASY / CORE / TOUGH / SILLY?

[Maria Caliban]

Monte Carlo = pre-ordered DA

Maria Caliban != pre-ordered DA

 

[Purkake]

Whatever death mechanic they use the worst thing has always been having to relearn the spells because you lost the extra spell slots when you dropped your items.

[mkreku]

Risen.

[HoonDing]

Maybe upon the main character's death, the game should automatically uninstall itself from the player's computer and also lock the game from any new installs. "One strike and you're out".

 

That would really give those hardc0re RPGers something to play for.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Nah, that's for ligthweights. Instead, if you die, a piece of malware deletes your operating system and empties your bank account.

 

Or something.

 

As for Maria, it was inevitable that one day we would have something in common. It's worrying. What next?

[213374U]

Maybe upon the main character's death, the game should automatically uninstall itself from the player's computer and also lock the game from any new installs. "One strike and you're out".

 

That would really give those hardc0re RPGers something to play for.

Interesting...

 

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

How can the wind be ugly?

Huge particles clipping through models. It just looks bad. If it at least smoothed the edges like lots of newer games do, it'd look fine.

[Slowtrain]

A death system should reward players for not letting their characters die without penalizing them too heavily if they do.

 

Vs Say a game like Bioshock which actually rewards players metagaming themselves into constant death.

[Purkake]

A death system should reward players for not letting their characters die without penalizing them too heavily if they do.

 

Vs Say a game like Bioshock which actually rewards players metagaming themselves into constant death.

 

The question is how.

 

I'm totally fine with just quickloading if stuff goes south, that's what I did in Bioshock.

[Monte Carlo]

OK, death as a game mechanic (what a strange thing to be typing!).

 

Death is there for a number of reasons =

 

1. Immersion. Death is a logical consequence of being battered, stabbed, fried, shot, immolated, skewered (etc).

2. Punishment. For not winning.

3. Learning / reward. "Hum, I died that last time, better try a new approach. If I don't die then I don't have to schlep back to a temple / use a precious scroll or spell."

4. Managing the problem. That is to say, "Bob The Barbarian is full of arrows... and he weighs 300 lbs without armour.... hmmmm." I like managing problems.

 

Of all of these, 3. is easily the most important.

 

How you manage death is a matter for the game designer. But it should be an option on the difficulty slider. Lose an NPC? Tough. Problem is, Bio is so attached to it's marvellous NPCs they're worried that we'll miss a nugget of dialogue.

 

And herein lies the rub.

 

You see, some of the developers would rather be novelists. They don't want you to miss any of the amazing plot, characters and dialogue they've created, even if you don't really want it. A game isn't a novel, you should be able to miss stuff, die, wander around, die again, dip in and out of plot A, Quest B and Story Arc C.

 

At it's worst, a game like Dragon Age might turn into a PC gaming version of HAL. "You don't want to die in this quest, Dave." Or, "You really should take this NPC, Dave."

 

It all comes back to the eternal issue on this forum - what I like you very well might not. Which is cool, it's the way of the world. The developer needs to try to please both without ruining the end product, and to that end I don't see why dynamic, custom difficulty sliders are too much of a problem. If one player wants a NO DEATH EVER! option, I couldn't care less. They should be able to play it that way, it's hardly a difficult piece of coding and heck most recent Bio games have it anyhow as a default.

 

Cheers

MC

[alanschu]

I don't know man, a central part of the fun in games that aim to have a strategy component is the looming consequences for bad calls. If you screw up, you learn, you get better. If the game doesn't have a way of telling you "charging the Adamantine golem may not be the smartest approach", there is no learning curve -- it's a plateau. The player will not refine his tactics, as there's no need. And when the big climactic fight comes, the player will wipe and blame the crappy encounter design, the terrible difficulty curve, or whatever. Or, conversely, the big climactic fight will not be quite so climactic from a gameplay standpoint, and beating the game will feel hollow and pointless. This is the approach taken by BIO ever since BG2.

 

I didn't really notice that during my playthrough. I most definitely got progressively better as the game went on. Early in the game I died a lot, with full party wipes. Then I'd get more of the tense moments where my last player character left standing would defeat the last hostile with 2% health left. As time went on and I learned my abilities and effective ways to keep the rest of my party alive. When you have a character that has 6 different injuries on them because they've fallen in the last 6 fights, you'll start to be a bit more careful, especially at the beginning of the game when the injuries are their most debilitating.

 

 

 

You see, some of the developers would rather be novelists. They don't want you to miss any of the amazing plot, characters and dialogue they've created, even if you don't really want it. A game isn't a novel, you should be able to miss stuff, die, wander around, die again, dip in and out of plot A, Quest B and Story Arc C.

 

This doesn't hold up as in Dragon Age you can easily refuse party members. I'm not sure precisely of its motivations, but I know in Baldur's Gate 1/2 if someone died, I'd just automatically reload the game, and use my new knowledge of the encounter to metagame it so that I don't lose anyone. The automatic revival does make the game easier, but in my opinion, it also makes it more fun because I'm less worried about constant reloading the game. Instead of loading up on a lot of scrolls of resurrection, I'm loading up on injury kits. But I'm not fubared and forced to replay an encounter endlessly because it's a tough one, simply because a couple party members die.

Edited October 11, 2009 by alanschu

[theslug]

Alan since your "mages r gud early game" post I've been wondering how the class balancing is so far. For instance, if say I wanted to make a character that was heavy into ranged bows/crossbows would I be gimping my party by choosing a legolas type? Indulge us please.

[alanschu]

I don't have much experience with archers.

 

Early game they didn't seem to be as effective as outright damage, but they do have the advantage of avoiding a lot of damage, and there were some fights where I found myself opting to use a bow (with no talents in archery) with my dual-weapon specialized rogue because it made some sequences easier. I have heard that higher level archers can deal out a significant chunk of damage. They also have some handy (and exceptionally annoying when they happen to you) crowd controlling abilities.

 

 

Though you'll likely go bows then. Crossbows are a strength based weapon IIRC, and typically suited for a warrior class' alternate weapon.

[Sammy Chung]

How you manage death is a matter for the game designer. But it should be an option on the difficulty slider. Lose an NPC? Tough. Problem is, Bio is so attached to it's marvellous NPCs they're worried that we'll miss a nugget of dialogue.

 

And herein lies the rub.

 

You see, some of the developers would rather be novelists. They don't want you to miss any of the amazing plot, characters and dialogue they've created, even if you don't really want it. A game isn't a novel, you should be able to miss stuff, die, wander around, die again, dip in and out of plot A, Quest B and Story Arc C.

 

At it's worst, a game like Dragon Age might turn into a PC gaming version of HAL. "You don't want to die in this quest, Dave." Or, "You really should take this NPC, Dave."

Cheers

MC

 

I just want to point out that there is one mandatory party member in DA. Everyone else from Morrigan to Sten to Dog is completely optional. You can even leave the mandatory party member at your base camp if you want to try and solo the game.

 

When you have permadeath, you don't get people learning to be better gamers, you get people learning to quicksave before every battle and quickloading every time a party member goes down. If you include items or places that resurrect people, then it's functionally no different than people getting up after a fight, it's just more tedious if you have to drag their corpse around until you get to the nearest temple/merchant.

 

Another problem specific to Dragon Age is the fact that resurrection does not exist. If you put permadeath in such a setting, you are going to turn off 99% of your player base.