FO:NV

[Slowtrain]

the thing is, in vats, melee... sucked. out of vats it felt like we were playing some twitchy shooter, and Gromnir has no stomach for such.

 

is probably more style than anything else that relegated Gromnir to frequent early death, but that still raises issue o' why melee is so crap in vats.

 

 

I think mostly speed and accuracy. In RT melee you strike very fast and you never miss. And with each strike that lands there's a critical chance.

 

I don't know how it works in VATS though.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I ruled the universe with the Vault 101 baseball bat. I killed the first super mutant I encountered, a minigun-wielding dude near Big Town, with it at 4th level. I didn't replace that weapon until I took the shishkebab off of Vance's corpse about six hours into the game. The only melee weapon I used after I got that was Stabhappy. I always used melee weapons in real-time.

[Slowtrain]

Stabhappy is awesome. That little thing is deadly. It always cracks me up watching super mutant masters fly apart when attacked with that's about the size of one of their toes.

 

The main thing I don't like about the baseball bat is its impact sound. Just very weak. Both the tire iron and the lead pipe sound a lot more um...chunky when they connect.

 

Chunky rocks.

[entrerix]

my favorite melee weapon was the sledgehammer. it felt solid as iraq... ahem... a rock.

 

 

I also like using pool cues, and made a custom one which was about as good as a shishkebab.

[Gorgon]

Vats is silly, I think most of us agree, only I don't think Obs will be allowed to touch it since it was one of the big selling points for the game. It tries do retain action points and elements of turn based combat, but it doesn't work. It's a free for all, the enemies just stand around and watch their heads explode.

 

I think we can hope that the size of your stimpack stash is not going to be the all overshadowing factor of whether you live or not.

 

Were I king I would replace VATS with a called shot feat. One shot at increased accuracy/crit with a cooldown factor, say 4-5 seconds of actual game time.

[Aristes]

I never even played a melee character. I didn't think the game was too terribly hard as non-melee, but I guess it would have been even easier as a knuckle-dragging bruiser. Unfortunately, I like my characters more of the fast talking sharp shooting type. ...And that's what I generally build. I try different things from time to time, but I like ranged folks in my Fallout games. (and mages otherwise ) If melee has that much of an advantage over a ranged build, I think it's a design flaw. That's like saying that we shouldn't train soldiers in small arms or heavy weapons but simply equip them with louisville sluggers and have them run at the enemy. I dunno. I managed to circle around stuff that got in close on me and shoot it to death well enough. On the other hand, it's a design decision that doesn't take anything away from me personally. The only way to know that melee is so much more overpowered than ranged is to play melee and find out. Since I hate VATS and I prefer to kill the enemy at a distance, I use the best/funnest gun lying around.

 

As far as skill points go, I think I'd rather see raising the cap than lowering the points. Even without bobble heads, you still have books and perks. You can reduce the skill point pool per level, but that just makes books and perks more valuable. I don't know if the skill max should be set the same as FO2 or not, but something to spread out those points more and adds more variety to the game. Of course, that figures that the game takes advantage of the whole spread. Otherwise, why bother? Anyhow, I think, when it comes to skill max on one hand and skill allotment on the other, a little higher sounds better than a little less.

[cronicler]

I felt that Vats was another missed / poorly constructed opportunity. I know a lot of people are getting really tired of slow-mo / time stop / adrenaline rush abilities in the games but I think with (a lot of) tweaks, it can be a good tool for the player.

 

The first thing that is immidiately weird is the lack of Meele and Unarmed combat styles in Vats. If reliable interrupt and lockdown effects for these styles can be implemented, It would be nice to hit one guys weapon arm to disable him, unbalance the second one (tackle, leg sweep, push whatever) and finally bash the third targets head or face in in a fighting game combo style. This would also make these styles fun to play.

 

For gunning, I always thought of Vats as a pistolero style showdown when you are using a pistol (Single hand, Duelist stance, 6 to 14 bullets worth of pain) but to achieve such effect the deadliness of weapons need to be increased. A lot.

 

When you are going Vats in rifle, it reminded me of a soldier leaning a bit ahead, going ironsights (or reflex or whatever the rifle has) and servicing targets in very quick succession.

 

I don't think Vats is unfixable. With proper animations, an overhauled targeting and positioning (and eliminating slow-mo and less damage aspects) it is quite a nice tool.

(And you shouldn't be able to target someone behind your back and 100m away....)

[Slowtrain]

I find VATS dull as currently executed, but definitely with some options and decisions and stuff it could be made more fun.

 

The every shot slo-mo has to be made optional though. That just takes way too long to play out. Far worse than FO 1/2's turtle slow TB combat.

[Syraxis]

I find VATS dull as currently executed, but definitely with some options and decisions and stuff it could be made more fun.

 

Being given the option to attempt to move/dodge and attack in VATS at the cost of a sizable amount of AP would be interesting.

 

Of course this probably only sounds good on paper.

[Aristes]

I wonder, was VATS was a successful design decision in that it was popular with the players? Not having an ax to grind, that's a legit question and not a lead in to some snarky comment about FO3. If other players really dug VATS, then the design team would have to be at least somewhat careful about what they do to change it. If the bulk of FO fans loved the exploration and setting and VATS was only a small part of that experience, then I think the design team has a lot of room to maneuver. Frankly, I would use VATS a lot more often if some of the changes that CG offers were included. Even with the choice to make it so that every time I used VATS it didn't go super slo mo would make me happy. I don't mind it slowing somewhat. That's probably useful for a player who will be out of VATS at the end of the round or whatever. ...But the super slowmo followed by gratuitous gore that wastes even more time just drives me bonkers. Added functions in VATS would be cool too, I suppose, although the idea behind VATS, that it catches some of the turn based feel of FO1/2, just never hit home for me.

 

Oh, and regardless of how many other folks hated it, I loved the radio. Only when I was sneaking did I turn off the radio. I thought some of the DJ chatter was actually well done, but the music is a must. There's something about having a well selected set of tunes that really enhances the gameplay for me. Hell, I even bought that Bingo Bango Bongo song by Danny Kaye and the Andrews Sisters.

[HoonDing]

Leave VATS alone.

.

[Jaesun]

Leave VATS alone.

.

 

hahaha!

 

I never tried melee either in fo3. I just never liked it.

[Pidesco]

VATS is simply broken. There really is no way around it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

VATS is simply broken. There really is no way around it.

 

I agree. An insta-kill trick for the retarded.

[Aristes]

VATS is simply broken. There really is no way around it.

 

I agree. An insta-kill trick for the retarded.

For whom is VATS broken, though? I mean, if we polled the players, would most of them say they did or did not like VATS? Hell, my favorite aspect to target is the skill point pool, and I figure that it's 'broken,' but I don't think I've ever exactly put it that way. VATS is what VATS is. If folks use it as a win-button, fine. I don't think they will remove it, and they could very well leave it as it is. For my own part, I dislike the way it functions rather than its effect. I don't care if it makes the game easier.

 

I'll be interested to see what happens. Will Obsidian go the Olympus Mons route and satisfy the players in the ivory tower or leave it as is for the hoi polloi?

[RPGmasterBoo]

VATS is simply broken. There really is no way around it.

 

I agree. An insta-kill trick for the retarded.

For whom is VATS broken, though? I mean, if we polled the players, would most of them say they did or did not like VATS? Hell, my favorite aspect to target is the skill point pool, and I figure that it's 'broken,' but I don't think I've ever exactly put it that way. VATS is what VATS is. If folks use it as a win-button, fine. I don't think they will remove it, and they could very well leave it as it is. For my own part, I dislike the way it functions rather than its effect. I don't care if it makes the game easier.

 

I'll be interested to see what happens. Will Obsidian go the Olympus Mons route and satisfy the players in the ivory tower or leave it as is for the hoi polloi?

 

The majority of players are 13-15 year old kids who are trying to hide that they are playing this uber cool game, with like flying limbs and stuff from their parents. They'd swallow anything if it had a cherry on top.

 

Hence, this game really needs to cater to us, the depraved, jaded, Fallout fans. That means they should ditch everything F3.

[Aristes]

Hence, this game really needs to cater to us, the depraved, jaded, Fallout fans.

I will admit that I laughed out loud.

 

...But, you know, we could be the salvation of Fallout: New Vegas! I'm at Gecko in a Fallout 2 run right now. I'll start taking notes just in case the dev team hasn't played the game yet.

[Tigranes]

I'll start taking notes just in case the dev team hasn't played the game yet.

 

You mean, like several Beth devs?

 

Couldn't resist...

[Aristes]

That made me laugh also. Great night tonight. Tigranes, you PhD persuing, Fallout lovin', Korean speaking Aussie bastard! Why don't you hurry up and finish school and make the next Fallout game yourself. I'll help with the license costs. I've got... $20 in my wallet. How much more do you think we'll need?

 

If you ever do, I want to say right now that I'd like an isometric view with turn based combat and a bit of real gritty survival in it. *shrug* or Fallout 3 sandbox style is fine. I'm easy as a two-bit hooker in a twelve dollar whore house.

 

Seriously, as weird as it sounds, I don't trust that I'd make the best decisions. If I had to make them, I would, but I find that my views change so much and that sometimes the things that sound great to me end up sucking so much that I just trust the devs better than myself. It's always so much easier for me to spot things I find irritating or unfun than know for sure what I'll find fun in the end product. Even things that I say I'll hate, like CG's idea of save penalties, I won't if they're done properly. I know I'd find it irritating on it's face, but I can forgive a lot if the title just gives me something. I have rarely seen a critic pan Fallout 3 without agreeing in principle with most of his points. I have always ended up with a different conclusion. I enjoyed FO3. Individual pieces irritated me, but I still had fun. I don't know if that says something good or bad about me. *waits for someone to take advantage of the opening*

[Tigranes]

$20's enough for a pizza and a beer over there right? What more do we need?

 

You know, as much as I fail to find any merit in individual major decisions made in FO3 (VATS balancing, the entire story, difficulty, subways...), I did finish the game, and it was a very fun game that had a lot of things coming together for it. And it was a massive improvement from the studio's earlier product (this is probably one thing agreed upon by those who love and hate Oblivion). So yeah, there's something worthwhile going on in there, even if I'd prefer that that 'worthwhile thing' happened while we got a more authentic FO sequel brewing in another cauldron.

 

Heh, what was the topic? We've got to be kidding if we think we'll hear any NV info this year. will be interesting to talk about this once we've played DA, AP, etc.

[Slowtrain]

VATS is boring. You don't do anything; just stand there and click. Ther's no tactics, no dynamics to the gameplay. It's everything that is bad about TB combat, without any of the good parts. The fun part of TB combat is having the time to choose from a variety of possible tactics and options in a way that is impossible in RT. There is none of tht in VATS.

 

 

Om top of that every shot is a slow motion animation. I have no clue how anybody has the patience to sit through that for the thousands upon thousands of reptitive, drawnout and pointless animations that one will experience with the huge amount of combat in the game.

 

Unless you simply like watching cartoon heads explode in slow motion.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Om

 

love that band. can't wait for the new album.

[Slowtrain]

*head explodes*

[CoM_Solaufein]

VATS is the best thing to happen to the Fallout series. Fix the bloody inaccuracies of the Big Guns classification if you want something done about combat. Firing a mini-gun at point blank range and having 3/4 of the bullets miss the target is lame. They need to get it better like it was in the first two Fallouts. Point blank range would have turned your target into a bloody mist.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I want the groin shot in VATS. I want to groin shot a super mutant with a fatboy nuke!