Reviews and Bethesda

[ramza]

I enjoyed Oblivion more than I did Neverwinter Nights 1 and Icewind Dale 2. I thought the game was better than any JRPGs that I played in the past. Its not a A+ game but it is in the B- to B range with me.

 

Bad taste... NWN1 and IWD2 are light-years beyond Oblivion in terms of gameplay and quality (excluding graphics of course, which is normal since those games weren't released at the same time as Oblivion).

 

I used to rely on reviews from different websites (IGN, Gamespot, RPGamer, etc) back in the late 90s and early 00s, but I quickly understood that the quality of reviews dropped at some point. They weren't as enlightening as before and I did get the impression that some reviewers were already "sold" on some games even before they got released. Even after release, they would turn a blind eye on some of the game's flaws, or would minimize them.

 

I find it also weird that some games got some extraordinary ratings (like Oblivion) while some other got above average/acceptable ratings (like NWN2). Yet, NWN2 was a LOT better than Oblivion. Beth is well known for its hype machine and Obsidian is known not to focus too much on it. Is that makes the difference in ratings? Then, this is not acceptable. A game should be judged from its inherent qualities and not the company's hype. I have heard multiple times about the posh receptions in 5 star hotels that Beth was organizing. No wonder they got incredible reviews. Add this to the occasional firing of a reviewer who was naive enough to write what he really thought of the game... No really, online reviews are unreliable and I have decided to boycott them a long time ago...

 

Another thing that put me off when reading the reviews were the incredible scores. How many games nowadays get score like 95+%. Such scores ought to be ultra rare. Yet, they are being distributed quite generously at some games...

[Niten_Ryu]

Aren't they supposed to be professional? I would expect a professional in any trade to understand the nuances of working in their chosen field. I expect a professional reviewer to be completely aware of and correct for the dangers of erroneous first impressions based on limited playing time.

 

I'd say you expect way too much. You want somone from top 2% of the Gauss curve, who has years of experience of different kind of computer games (as well as other media) and is excellent wordsmith. And can't be bought with piles of cash from pulishers. Now what are the chances of that happening

 

Then again, review from such person would probably miss the mark anyway as he'd be so far ahead general gaming audience.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Ramza, they might be better IN YOUR OPINION but your opinion is not the end all of all things. In my opinion Oblivion is more fun to play than NWN1 and IWD2. So what if you were a "professional reviewer." So was I for a time. The only difference between a "professional reviewer" and a average gamerspouting off an opinion is that the "professional reviewer" gets paid for it.

 

The bottomline is which game is more fun for a person to play. Oblivion, for me, was more fun to play than NWN1 and IWD2. Is it better than NWN2? No. Is it better than Fallout 3 or Mass Effect? Nope. Again this is my opinion, and my opinion is no better and no worse than yours, Ramza.

 

As for the problem with review sites that is the nature of the beast and why I decided to no longer be a "professional reviewer."

[HoonDing]

As for the problem with review sites that is the nature of the beast and why I decided to no longer be a "professional reviewer."

But those 5 stars hotels...

[bhlaab]

Tig nailed it. ES games in general are really impressive for the first few hours after you bust out of prison. Underlying flaws and general shallow-ness take more time to figure out, and reviewers tend to rush and focus on first impressions.

 

I disagree, Morrowind was and is a fantastic game.

 

The problem with Oblivion is, the only new things it brought to the table made the game considerably worse

[Nightshape]

2) Some people are morons, thats why some really bad games sell remarkably well.

 

Works both ways, really good games not selling at all because of reviews.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Its all a matter of opinion. One gamer's "OMG B00BI35" is another gamer's "WTF N00BZ?!?!?".

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I disagree, Morrowind was and is a fantastic game.

 

Not the one I played.

[Slowtrain]

Its all a matter of opinion. One gamer's "OMG B00BI35" is another gamer's "WTF N00BZ?!?!?".

 

 

Following that logic then:

 

If I think that GOdzilla Vs the Smog Monster is a better film than Raging Bull, nobody can tell me I'm wrong? Because it's all just a matter of opinion?

[Morgoth]

There are criteria for quality, so it's not all about opinion.

[Slowtrain]

I think it is certainly valid to say: I enjoy Godzilla vs the Smog Monster more than Raging Bull.

 

I do not think it is valid to say: Godzilla vs the Smog Monster is a better film than Raging Bull.

 

 

The former is a matter of opinion without question. I'm not entirely sure the latter is.

[Purkake]

Its all a matter of opinion. One gamer's "OMG B00BI35" is another gamer's "WTF N00BZ?!?!?".

 

Well, if you put it like that...

[Malcador]

I think it is certainly valid to say: I enjoy Godzilla vs the Smog Monster more than Raging Bull.

 

I do not think it is valid to say: Godzilla vs the Smog Monster is a better film than Raging Bull.

 

 

The former is a matter of opinion without question. I'm not entirely sure the latter is.

 

 

The latter is known as the Spike TV demographic.

[Enoch]

The problem with Oblivion is, the only new things it brought to the table made the game considerably worse

It's been a long time since I played M, but off the top of my head, I'd cite O's stealth mechanic and its journal as things that were huge improvements over their M counterparts.

[Volourn]

"I think it is certainly valid to say: I enjoy Godzilla vs the Smog Monster more than Raging Bull.

 

I do not think it is valid to say: Godzilla vs the Smog Monster is a better film than Raging Bull."

 

Totally disagree. It's valid to see either one.

 

P.S. This doesn't mean I personally believe G vs SM is the better film, btw.

[Slowtrain]

Totally disagree. It's valid to see either one.

 

 

SO you believe there is no valid criteria that can be used to judge the quality of a movie or game?

 

SO nothing distinguishes the quality of an Uwe Boll film from the quality of a Stanley Kubrick film?

 

Or of one Kubrick film from another Kubrick film?

 

There is only opinion in a discussion on the relative merit of Bloodrayne vs A Clockwork Orange?

[Volourn]

If you can get everyone to agree what critera to use than sure. But, considering one cna't even get all the 'experts' to agree what the best movie ever is says everything i need to know.

 

Games, movies, books, and stuff of the sort are not mathematics and can't be figured out the same way.

 

It's not as simple as 3+3=6 all the time no matter what.

 

To try to simplify it in that matter belittles the who point of this stuff. There is no right answer except for every individual.

 

Some people will live, and die for the Godzilla movies. Some don't give a crap about Raging Bull. Even so called 'classics' like Casablanca has its detractors. *shrug*

[Slowtrain]

Some people will live, and die for the Godzilla movies. Some don't give a crap about Raging Bull. Even so called 'classics' like Casablanca has its detractors. *shrug*

 

 

Speaking only personally, I love Godzilla movies (the one sup through about 1975 anyway), but I don't really enjoy Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, The Godfather.

 

SO I have no problem saying I enjoy Godzilla vs The Smog Monster more than any of the above, but I'm not sure I can say that any of the Godzilla movies I enjoy are better than those particular films.

 

Certainly if I went to Rotten Tomatoes and made such a claim on their forums, I would be laughed off the board, and rightfully so, I think.

[Gorgon]

Oblivion is pretty decent, the main quest runs out of steam and the rest becomes slowly pointless after you are done trekking around discovering stuff, but that happens in every Bethesda game, until it does you have fun.

[Slowtrain]

Oblivion is pretty decent, the main quest runs out of steam and the rest becomes slowly pointless after you are done trekking around discovering stuff, but that happens in every Bethesda game, until it does you have fun.

 

 

It has a lot of broken pieces though.

 

 

For example, the lockpick skill:

 

My hulking 30 int/30 agi Nord with a warrior concentration and lockpicking in a minor slot can pick all the same locks almost just as well as my 60 int /60 agi Wood Elf with a stealth concentration and lockpicking in a major slot.

 

So two completetly different, almost totally opposite, character builds have exatcly the same lockpicking ability in the gameworld.

 

In other words: the lockpicking skill matters diddly/squat. IF so, why is it even in the game? If it isn't supposed to matter than just leave it out.

 

But it is in the game; it doesn't matter, and it is therefore broken.

[bhlaab]

The problem with Oblivion is, the only new things it brought to the table made the game considerably worse

It's been a long time since I played M, but off the top of my head, I'd cite O's stealth mechanic and its journal as things that were huge improvements over their M counterparts.

 

I'll give you those.

[Relayer71]

I enjoyed Oblivion more than I did Neverwinter Nights 1 and Icewind Dale 2. I thought the game was better than any JRPGs that I played in the past. Its not a A+ game but it is in the B- to B range with me.

 

Bad taste... NWN1 and IWD2 are light-years beyond Oblivion in terms of gameplay and quality (excluding graphics of course, which is normal since those games weren't released at the same time as Oblivion).

 

As much as I dislike Oblivion for being a shallow, dull, generic, "my First RPG" type experience, I really can't agree with NWN and IWD2 being "light years" beyond it.

 

I would rather play the first 10 hours of Oblivian than NWN. At least I could avoid the retarded MQ and either do the side/faction quests or just roam around "exploring" (as lame as exploring is in a game with such poor level/loot scaling). NWN though was beyond dull and tedious. I just could not believe I was playing a follow up to the brilliant Baldur's Gate II and I was just baffled after the first 2 hours. It was like night and day. The expansion packs at least were decent fun, more so the 2nd one.

 

As for IWD 2, it was NOT a bad game but i LOVED the first IWD and the sequel didn't have the same "magic".

 

I think it may have been the pacing and areas like that ice palace (I really hate lever/switch puzzles, so it's probably just me). The quality was there though and it was a good last hurrah for the engine. And I'd rather play it (and have replayed it three times actually, always getting just past that palace to I think a forest area and then putting it aside for whatever reason) than play Oblivion.

 

But again I don't think it was "light years" above Oblivion.

 

Don't misunderstand, as a long time CRPG fan I hate Oblivion and I tried playing Fallout 3 and it's just as soulless to me and I think the problem lies most of all with the poor quality of writing and those terrible voice actors Bethesda use. I don't mind a sandbox game with minimal choice and consequence, with a less than stellar story or general gameplay mechanics. I loved Morrowind for its uniquely mysterious atmosphere, the chock full of interesting lore and beautiful art design even if other areas were weak and I had to invest more of my imagination than I normally would to enjoy it.

 

But the laughable (and poorly voice acted) dialogue turned me off big time in both Oblivion and Fallout 3. It really did sound as if the actors were performing for a class of 2nd graders and overall the game felt like it was written for 13 year olds. It's amazing that a JRPG like Persona 4 which centers around High School students has much more mature and compelling dialogue and situations.

 

But I can still see how Oblivion received all the praise it did. As others have mentioned, as a first person adventure/RPG console style game (forget it's lineage), it's actually a pretty good game. Not like there are too many of its ilk. It's basically a Fantasy Grand Theft Auto sandbox experience. The physical size of the game, the amount of voice work, the nice graphics, the amount of quests, whether I like the game or not I can see a lot of care went into the game. On top of that it's very accessible and "user friendly". Not a good thing for those who are used to old school, hardcore CRPGs but for the majority of gamers it's a godsend. The type of game you can jump in, play for 20 minutes, have a little fun and pick up later. NOt too taxing. And have a little fun I did for the first 10 hours or so (although I could see the warts right from the beginning with the idiotic way the main quest unfolds).

 

So of course if you've played Daggerfall you can see how the series was dumbed down a bit for Morrowind and then dumbed down even more for Oblivion. And if you're a hardcore RPG fan who has played most of the "classic" CRPGs then Oblivion in NO WAY lives up or even comes close. It's more adventure game than RPG.

 

And for every few reviews that heaped nothing but praise on Oblivion I did read one that did mention the huge flaws in the game. Most still managed to score it highly based on the overall experience and I guess I can understand that. I mean, Arcanum has THE worst combat system EVER and overall it's a bit clunky but I still love it and think it's a great experience.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Relayer71

[bhlaab]

Oblivion is pretty decent, the main quest runs out of steam and the rest becomes slowly pointless after you are done trekking around discovering stuff, but that happens in every Bethesda game, until it does you have fun.

 

 

It has a lot of broken pieces though.

 

 

For example, the lockpick skill:

 

My hulking 30 int/30 agi Nord with a warrior concentration and lockpicking in a minor slot can pick all the same locks almost just as well as my 60 int /60 agi Wood Elf with a stealth concentration and lockpicking in a major slot.

 

So two completetly different, almost totally opposite, character builds have exatcly the same lockpicking ability in the gameworld.

 

In other words: the lockpicking skill matters diddly/squat. IF so, why is it even in the game? If it isn't supposed to matter than just leave it out.

 

But it is in the game; it doesn't matter, and it is therefore broken.

 

SO many of the bad design choices in Oblivion stem from them not wanting the player to recieve a single ounce of negative feedback.

Lockpicking minigames instead of a die roll

Spells split up into levels instead of having a failure chance

Enchantment altars instead of even having the option to try on your own

 

I suppose the line of thinking behind it is "Casual players are SO DUMB they'll vomit in disgust and break the disc if they lose a dieroll"

The reality is, it homogenizes everything, makes building your character pointless, reduces replayability, and the spell thing makes being a mage ridiculously difficult unless you sit in a field grinding Illusion for 50 minutes

[Gorgon]

The skill point system was certainly poorly thought out. I remember purposely not choosing the skills I wanted to use the most as major skills, that way I would have the maximum 3x5 ability score points per level up. Lockpicking was just agility, or was it intelligence, training to me, I always carried around the maximum number of picks.

 

Before I could afford that I never bothered with locks, as there was never anything but random generated crap behind them, and the random generated crap got better with higher levels.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Gorgon

[bhlaab]

I'm playing through oblivion for the first time and I'm sooooo glad I waited until a ton of mods came out to fix things like lockpicking, speechcraft, level scaling, etc