NWN2: Storm of Zehir is out

[Gromnir]

would love to see a D&D tactics kinda thing wherein the illusion o' role-play is ignored in favor o' genuine hardcore combat. sure, the d&d classes ain't necessarily balanced for that sorta thing, but even so, Gromnir likes the squad-based tactical combat games, and at it's core, the d&d rules is combat focused rules for squad-level combat scenarios. use some sorta development model similar to the westgate thingie... w/o needing 3 years to finally get release. atari pays a small indie developer to put together a combat focused release utilizing current nwn engine... do direct download... or whatever.

 

is something Gromnir would pay for. advertise as being for serious hardcore combat focused players, so not have to worry 'bout trying to please people that wanted romances or character development or story. smaller budget means you can produce for niche audience and not lose money.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Llyranor]

Wasn't there a DnD Tactics for PSP? Though I have no idea how faithful it was to the actual rules.

 

I'd pay for a good DnD squad-based tactical game, yes. Easily even. Turn-based, not NWN1/2 engine.

[Gromnir]

Wasn't there a DnD Tactics for PSP? Though I have no idea how faithful it was to the actual rules.

 

I'd pay for a good DnD squad-based tactical game, yes. Easily even. Turn-based, not NWN1/2 engine.

 

am doubting you is gonna get such a thing. troika pooped in the pool when they unloaded toee on an unsuspecting gaming world, and atari didn't enjoy cleaning up the mess. is unlikely that atari does a major tb d&d game any time soon. yeah, tb ain't what killed toee any more than the planescape setting is what killed ps:t, but am betting the corporate suit types is not a discriminating bunch... if it sounds like toee, then chances are atari folks is gonna kill regardless.

 

but a direct digital mini-release of scale on par with westgate?

 

dunno. Gromnir ain't an atari suit. can you sell idea that there is enough hardcore d&d combat fans out there? back when bg2 were being developed, some biowarians lamented the notion that bg2 had to have a mp aspect. diablo had mp and diablo 2 were gonna have mp... so bg2 had to have mp, right? why? 'cause the suits knew that a crpg had to have mp to be a big seller.

 

am honest curious how these games get pitched. Gromnir knows movies gets pitched. am also familiar with the publishing route for first time authors. even so, we got no genuine clue how ideas for game becomes a game development. who is in position to sell a d&d tactics game to atari, and how does they go about doing so?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

Wasn't there a DnD Tactics for PSP? Though I have no idea how faithful it was to the actual rules.

 

I'd pay for a good DnD squad-based tactical game, yes. Easily even. Turn-based, not NWN1/2 engine.

 

I heard it was mediocre, if I remember the reviews correctly.

[Volourn]

I heard it was better than SOZ. Not that that's hard.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

Wasn't there a DnD Tactics for PSP? Though I have no idea how faithful it was to the actual rules.

 

I'd pay for a good DnD squad-based tactical game, yes. Easily even. Turn-based, not NWN1/2 engine.

 

I heard it was mediocre, if I remember the reviews correctly.

 

the reviews Gromnir saw said that it were complete $%.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Llyranor]

Wait, Hades is a censored word now?

 

EDIT: Wait a minute, no it's not.

 

????

Edited January 28, 2009 by Llyranor

[Jaesun]

If SoZ had the same budget as IWD, imagine the possibilities. But it did not. Given the low budget for SoZ, I think Obsidian did an outstanding job.

 

If Atari could approach Obsidian with a little more bigger budget for say NX3 (About the same as MotB), this could be quite awesome. I doubt that is going to happen however.

[Tigranes]

I highly doubt we will see an NX3. Good thing too, all things considered.

 

I am just about to go to the final area for SOZ, convinced that I wrapped up the majority of things you can do. I could never find out how to get to that mountain in the sword coast, and I never found the gauntlets of ironfist, but oh well. After a MOTB run just before, I'm gonig to have to take a long break from NWN2, but I will probably play SOZ one more time at some point.

 

It did get me onto an old-games frenzy, though. Trying Ultima 7 for the first time (and about time). Got killed.

[Monte Carlo]

would love to see a D&D tactics kinda thing wherein the illusion o' role-play is ignored in favor o' genuine hardcore combat. sure, the d&d classes ain't necessarily balanced for that sorta thing, but even so, Gromnir likes the squad-based tactical combat games, and at it's core, the d&d rules is combat focused rules for squad-level combat scenarios. use some sorta development model similar to the westgate thingie... w/o needing 3 years to finally get release. atari pays a small indie developer to put together a combat focused release utilizing current nwn engine... do direct download... or whatever.

 

is something Gromnir would pay for. advertise as being for serious hardcore combat focused players, so not have to worry 'bout trying to please people that wanted romances or character development or story. smaller budget means you can produce for niche audience and not lose money.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yeah, I'd pay for that too. It wouldn't have to be turn-based, but I did like the TOEE combat engine a lot.

[Gromnir]

If SoZ had the same budget as IWD, imagine the possibilities. But it did not. Given the low budget for SoZ, I think Obsidian did an outstanding job.

 

If Atari could approach Obsidian with a little more bigger budget for say NX3 (About the same as MotB), this could be quite awesome. I doubt that is going to happen however.

 

 

perhaps the obsidian folks could chime in on this one.

 

iwd were largely an experiment kinda project. it took less than 1 year to build iwd (10 months?) and a significant number o' developers on the project were rookies. the goal were to release before diablo 2... a goal which were missed. even so, one reason fergie kept returning to the iwd well were that it were not only their best seller, but it were relative cheap and fast to make.

 

given how much more expensive it is to make games nowadays, Gromnir would hardly be surprised if iwd were having a smaller budget than did soz... and it wouldn't shock us to discover that comparable man hours went into both projects regardless o' fact that soz were only an expansion.

 

when toee were released and troika cried foul that atari had made unreasonable demands regarding development, there were a couple iwd developers that noted that Their game were developed faster and under less enviable operating conditions.

 

is maybe some misconceptions floating 'round regarding iwd.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Aponez]

[newc0253]

given how much more expensive it is to make games nowadays, Gromnir would hardly be surprised if iwd were having a smaller budget than did soz... and it wouldn't shock us to discover that comparable man hours went into both projects regardless o' fact that soz were only an expansion.

really? i always had the impression that games like IWD & BG were the products of much larger developer teams than any of the expansions for NWN, particularly as NWN already has the toolset frontloaded, hence making it easier for a smaller team to produce modules.

 

whether or not that's true, the comparison between SoZ and IWD points to another problem with the NWN expansions: the constant expectation of new features at the expense of things like story.

 

partly because the original NWN1 engine was such an experiment and only late in its development adapted for the single-player experience, it seems like an awful lot of development time has been taken up with making a weird beast of an engine into something workable: not simply the usual trick of adding new classes or races but really basic stuff like unlocking the camera, being able to organise your cohort's inventory, adding a controllable party, adding a spirit meter, adding party dialogue, an overland map, etc.

 

(another reason might be NWN's emphasis on module-making itself: making it easier for the nerds at home to making a module with the toolset raises the bar for the developers themselves. since the professionally-made module will have the same basic look as the thing you make at home, the developers have to go further in adding shiny new stuff so that folks ffeel like they're getting their money's worth).

 

IWD, otoh, didn't seem to add an awful lot to the functionality of the BG engine (on the surface at least, i have no idea what work they did under the hood). and besides adding some new monsters and items, it didn't really need to. tweaks aside, most people were happy with the basic package.

 

even if it's true that IWD and SoZ were made with similar budgets and resources, i'd hazard a guess that much more of the time in making SoZ went to adding bells and whistles than IWD did.

Edited January 28, 2009 by newc0253

[Morgoth]

I'm pretty positive that IWD required a larger team, mostly artists. The areas were all individually modeled and hand-drawn, while for SoZ you could quickly create areas within the toolset that didn't required any sort of post-rendering (except the walk-meshes maybe), plus there were already tons of finished prefabs from the previous NWN2 games that surely helped a lot to speed up area creation.

[Amentep]

Wasn't there a DnD Tactics for PSP? Though I have no idea how faithful it was to the actual rules.

 

I'd pay for a good DnD squad-based tactical game, yes. Easily even. Turn-based, not NWN1/2 engine.

 

I heard it was mediocre, if I remember the reviews correctly.

 

I played a demo of it back when I played the demo of NWN2.

 

I'm thinking the version I played was a demo and not the final game but it seemed like it could have been okay with some more work.. Was interested in it because they put Psionic classes in, but the menu was clunky and hard to navigate - which I've heard was the case in the finalized game. Never did get to a fight (hey, the menus were hard to navigate!) and I've heard that the way they handled them was problematic in terms of searching for loot on the battle screens.

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's kind of a mixed comparison. SoZ had a lead designer (Tony Evans) and effectively three content/systems designers (Nathaniel Chapman, Jeff Husges, Annie VanderMeer Carlson). They had two full-time artists (Jay Bakke and Roger Chang), a lead programmer (Rich Taylor), and an assortment of programming support (with Bobby Null and Justin Reyard doing most of the day to day programming). As with IWD, many of the SoZ folks were junior (though not rookies), but I do think that the similarities end there. IWD didn't add a lot to the IE in terms of groundbreaking new gameplay features. We mostly just expanded content and added/fixed in the racial features/weapon bonuses/spells that were missing from BG. Art also had to be made entirely by hand on IWD, from scratch.

 

In terms of budget, I really don't know how they compare. It's been about eight and a half years since IWD came out. IWD had a total development of 14 months, of which 9 months was actual production. SoZ was nine and a half months, from pre-production to gold.

[Gromnir]

is obsidian folks who originally made comparisson between iwd and soz, no? soz is gonna be like iwd, no?

 

regardless, point were that those who claims that iwd were some big budget project that got loads o' resources, while iwd were just an expansion, may be exaggerating a tad. both were relative quick productions with smaller budgets and staffings.

 

similarities 'tween aims of games and design philosophy & such? 'course not. is two very different games.

 

btw, soz sucks and iwd did not. also

 

 

...

 

ok, am genuine not a hater of soz, but other than the world map (which needs some serious tweaking btw) am wondering what were obsidan's goals for soz. functionality were added to the toolset, but what 'bout the rest o' the game? HoW were very brief and disappointed most everybody. were that the overriding goal: don't screw up like we did with HoW.

 

dunno, for the sake o' argument, which soz encounters is josh proud of. is any that you thinks shows off the skill and creativity o' obsidian? am sure that there is a couple. maybe Gromnir is being too harsh, but it sure seemed like a vast majority of soz encounters were very brief and extreme straightforward combat encounters in which the combat weren't particular noteworthy neither. sure, some battles were tougher than others, but that were more a function o' relative power as 'posed to clever tactics or unique settings. iwd2 were a different game, but for all its problems, targos alone offered more opportunities to impress Gromnir than maybe all of soz... which is a shame given all the increased functionality you added to soz.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

I was addressing newc0253's comments about staff size and focus. In terms of gameplay, other than SoZ and IWD being player-created-party-based D&D games, I don't think they're that similar.

 

My favorite SoZ encounters were probably:

 

* Fowl Play

* Tempest Fury

* Underdark Black Market

* And of course my Skullcrusher encounter w00t

[Gromnir]

from the guy who once noted that he weren't a fan of humor in d&d crpgs... HA!

 

am maybe not seeing how combats in tempests fury were noteworthy, and lord knows there weren't no dialogue opportunities neither. with the exception o' the underdark market, all your examples seems kinda brief an uninspired... and the skullcrusher bit does rely heavily on not necessarily common crpg knowledge to be even moderate entertaining (no offense.)

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'm a fan of humor in all genres of games. But, as with CRPG romances, CRPG humor typically falls short for me. I liked Fowl Play because I thought it was funny. For comparison, I did not think Noober was funny. Hopefully that gives a better frame of reference for what I like/dislike. So when I shoot down requests for yuk-yuk routines of a certain flavor, it isn't because I dislike humor. It's because I like humor.

 

The Tempest's Fury main combat was (when I encountered it) very challenging. I also did like the sylph building up to the appearance of the big bad in the area. You don't have to know anything about Skullcrusher to listen to his "tales"; they don't actually have anything to do with Pool of Radiance. They're just heads and tails of weird adventuring mishaps. And yep, they're all brief. But brief can be good in a lot of cases.

[Gromnir]

am not gonna argue with you how you has referenced crpg humor in past. am not sure if we has ever seen somebody request more neeber, but is possible... so am not gonna suggest that you is stooping to silly straw man nonsense.

 

"And yep, they're all brief. But brief can be good in a lot of cases."

 

sure, but can such stuff be good if they are the only cases? too short and too few and such stuff gets pretty much lost, no?

 

am also really not getting the tempest's fury approval. the slyph? couldn't even interact with the sylph. didn't matter what we said to it. not the least bit dynamic, and is not as if the writing were memorable. as for the challenge o' the combat... *shrug* Gromnir were probably a couple levels higher than you we s'pose 'cause the combat weren't particularly tough, and there clearly weren't anything clever or surprising in the tactics used by opponents. you folks did far more interesting combat scenarios in iwd2 then you did in soz.

 

the chicken bit were done in bg1. good for a chuckle we s'pose. genuine funny stuff that you would put on resume to show off talent of obsidian? really?

 

also, sorry 'bout the skullcrusher stuff, but after partial story #2 we simply clicked through until he stopped giving new material. obviously didn't keep our attention. again, we did hang in there through the first two stories. still, am somewhat suspicious of josh if he suggest that the skullcrusher encounter is something he would include on his resume... genuine pride. at least with skullcrusher there were both combat and dialogue options... no one-trick pony.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stephen Amber]

They've probably been putting most of their time and energy into the Aliens rpg, spreading themselves thinly over SoZ and other projects. It's like back in the days when NWN1 first came out and everyone wondered what was going on... what happened? That game shared development time with BG2/Throne of Bhaal and Kotor. That's what happened...

Edited January 29, 2009 by Stephen Amber

[J.E. Sawyer]

am not gonna argue with you how you has referenced crpg humor in past. am not sure if we has ever seen somebody request more neeber, but is possible... so am not gonna suggest that you is stooping to silly straw man nonsense.

I initially typed out more examples of things that are beloved by people in popular CRPG franchises and hated by me, but deleted them in the hope that the underlying point would be clear: like romance, it's the execution of humor in the game that makes or breaks it for me... usually breaks it. Noober is an extreme example of lame humor in a CRPG, but I doubt many people would be considered Enemies of Jokes if they declared they hated Noober.

 

sure, but can such stuff be good if they are the only cases? too short and too few and such stuff gets pretty much lost, no?

You asked me what I liked and I told you. I think a lot of the content was too generic and the rest of the game could have benefited from a smaller scope.

 

you folks did far more interesting combat scenarios in iwd2 then you did in soz.

No folks who worked on IWD2 worked on SoZ, unless you count the Skullcrusher encounter itself. And combat scenarios were the "whole deal" of IWD2. I think there are a lot of valid criticisms of the content of SoZ, but overall I think that SoZ added more new gameplay functionality to NWN2 than IWD2 added to IWD.

 

the chicken bit were done in bg1. good for a chuckle we s'pose. genuine funny stuff that you would put on resume to show off talent of obsidian? really?

What caliber of comedy are we really dealing with here? I need to know your frame of reference for gaming hilarity. If we're talking about "comedy in games", Full Throttle and its ilk pretty much blow away anything we at Obsidian, or Black Isle, or Bioware have ever done. Hell, the stuff Bioware did on MDK2 is still way funnier than anything they did in CRPGs before or since.

 

also, sorry 'bout the skullcrusher stuff, but after partial story #2 we simply clicked through until he stopped giving new material. obviously didn't keep our attention.

That is perfectly fine.

 

again, we did hang in there through the first two stories. still, am somewhat suspicious of josh if he suggest that the skullcrusher encounter is something he would include on his resume... genuine pride. at least with skullcrusher there were both combat and dialogue options... no one-trick pony.

I certainly don't think there's anything bad about that encounter. You have some entertaining conversation options, skill checks that open up a little special content, some unique weapons, and a unique scripted battle sequence. I don't think it stands up to great content created in the NWN/2 or IE engines, but I'm proud of it because I created on my own time as a small homage to a series of games that I grew up with. I wouldn't call it out on a resume because designing content isn't my professional strength. If someone asked me in an interview if I were proud of it, I wouldn't hesitate to say so.

[Stephen Amber]

Hell, the stuff Bioware did on MDK2 is still way funnier than anything they did in CRPGs before or since.

 

I thought Deekin was funny.

[Gromnir]

no, Gromnir did not ask you which encounters you liked. like is different than what Gromnir asked.

 

"for the sake o' argument, which soz encounters is josh proud of. is any that you thinks shows off the skill and creativity o' obsidian?"

 

is maybe a subtle difference, but am thinking it is a meaningful difference. Gromnir actually liked a number of soz encounters that we didn't thinks was particularly well-crafted.

 

"overall I think that SoZ added more new gameplay functionality to NWN2 than IWD2 added to IWD."

 

no argument there... save to note that you pretty much left up to future mod makers to actually... actualize? lots of nice tools, which Gromnir has admitted to many times already. story ain't as bad as some seem to claim. too bad the vast majority o' virtual soz geography is forgettable little 2 room caves populated with very violent and uncommunicative monsters o' limited intelligence... and the ubiquitous and repetitive randomn wilderness encounters.

 

am fully willing to complement the tools added... and will do so again. nevertheless, am disappointed that those tools you can be proud of were utilized to produce a relative lackluster adventure. is not that soz is terrible, so much as it feels half-finished. is a beginning an an end, but somehow you left out middle.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 29, 2009 by Gromnir