New Dragon Age discussion thread

[Llyranor]

Nick is bitter because Jaheira stopped talking to him because he played a wild mage and got turned into a female character either through random magic or some other equipment he didn't remember wearing.

[Gromnir]

"Yes Bio/Obs is smarter than poor kelverin..."

 

probably.

 

"But there writing and design does not show it. "

 

actually, much of biowarian writing and design is pretty good. question is what is wrong with romances. even folks who like the biowarian romances sees room for improvement. maybe kel wanna suggest that all biowarian design and writing is sub-par? *chuckle* is many people who would disagree, and sales alone shows that while bio quality is arguable, their success is fact.

 

"get better writers"

 

"write better romances."

 

is not useful suggestions. is not suggestions that recognize the problems inherent in developing crpg romance.

 

and no, Gromnir not have all the answers, but at least we can identify some o' the obstacles. step 1: identify the problem. they not teach critical thinking, analysis and problem solving in schools no more?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

If we're gonna have romances, they really need to put in a divorce arc as well. How we laughed as the NPC (despite only joining the party a fortnight ago) won the right to 3/4 of the gold, all the armour and you only get supervised weekend access to your familiar twice a month.

 

Divorce Lawyer would make a good prestige class.

 

Just to reiterate - Romances in CRPGs are invariably lame.

 

Obviously it's difficult to agree with Grom all the time, but try writing a credible story arc about anything in 6-8 three line encounters, each with three optional response trees. I agree that there's a dichotomy at work - CRPG writing requires haiku-like skillz but it isn't the first choice of the accomplished writer who could be doing TV, novels, movies (etc). Discuss. There are good CRPG writers... they'd probably be even better in another medium! But you can't ask a michelin-starred chef to win his third star in a kitchen with one dodgy gas ring and a can of beans, can you?

 

To make a romance work you'd need to put in a disproportionate level of effort when you could be doing things that everybody will enjoy. Frankly I find them.... laughable. I'm not dissing people who like them, it's just the way I feel on the subject. Personally, making an ally, changing an NPCs mind on something fundamental, persuading them to do something, winning the abiltity to choose their new class... these things are more meaningful story-wise than a 'romance.' FWIW, there's a No Office Romances rule in my adventuring parties!

 

Cheers

MC

[Volourn]

"when you could be doing things that everybody will enjoy."

 

This could be said about anything optional that not everybody enjoys - side quests, dialogue, races, classes, you name it there's someone who dislikes it. *shrug*

 

Bottom line is enough people do like them that they're worthwhile for BIO to put them in the game, and I believe they're usually better written than most other side stuff, and more worthwhile role-playing wise.

[RangerSG]

Why does a romance 'have' to be 6-8 3 line dialogues? I'm sorry, but you seem to have a self-defeating argument that assumes just because something has been this way before means this is the only way it can be. BG2 was the 1st attempt at serious romances. And they were far more than 3 line dialogues. Were they imperfect? Of course. But I think lots of people judge them based on what they think the standard of writing should be now as opposed to what things were at the time when that was NEW. That's an unfair comparison.

 

NWN OCs (and the NWN2 OC romances, which were jokes, Safira is a little more than a joke, but still woefully underdeveloped) were generally too shallow in terms of SP writing across the board. That was a product of making the OCs open to MP as well, and the fact they were just as much a display case for the toolset as an adventure in themselves. Using these as a barometer is absurd, because DA is not trying to replicate NWN. It's already ditched MP.

 

I think there's plenty of examples in the module communties for both NWN and NWN2 that show that non-essential romances can still be woven into the tapestry of a plot and make for a successful result. Lords of Darkness, Dance w/ Rogues, Sanctum of the Archmage, The Aielund Saga are ones that come to mind for me. There's others as well.

 

The real issue when it comes to romances is the desire to write them. Not just because you "need" to include it as a feature, but because you BELIEVE in it as something that adds to the story and the life of the characters IG.

 

BTW, on the GRR Martin issue. I seem to remember things a bit differently about that. I think there were just as many "all rights" from long timers as trepidation. I think the thing that's cooled the Martin references over time is the fact Martin can't get his books on the shelf anymore. I think he's lost his plot, to be honest. It's the only thing that explains why things are taking so long now.

 

And for the record, I think a Malazan setting (Steven Erickson) RPG would be an amazing experience... that would be one MMO I might have to cave in and pay money for if it was done that way...even though I despise MMOs. And a NWN style SP/MP moddable game would be a dream. I love the way he does magic, even if you can't explain it.

[Monte Carlo]

^ The 3-4 responses / 6-8 encounters issue was aimed at the reality: people are playing a computer game, not a "Dating Simulator" or interactive novel. Of course you could do it differently, but at the end of the day it will involve more text as well as balancing the ratings / maturity issue. I completely understand why people loved the talking book aspect of, say, Planescape, but as many people just didn't get it. Ergo PS:T was a niche product.

 

In the same way that hardcore tactics / combat fans (I put myself in that camp) are often disappointed by the need to mainstream a game for popular appeal, so the "I want to live in a romantic fantasy novel" crowd (I didn't realise how big this constituency was until I had a look at the Bio boards, so obviously they are out there) will be similarly disappointed.

 

Clearly, you can write a romance within these strictures, because it's the template for the BG2 romances, which lots of people enjoyed for some reason. I reckon it's a challenge for any writer to do them well, personally I dumped Jaheira / shut her up immediately with a "get over it" response in BG2 every time that soppy romance muzak came on.

 

Cheers

MC

[Gromnir]

first of all, Gromnir specifically said that the da board community were divided regarding dark v. traditional. never said that there were some kinda majority desire for pleasant. regardless, developers, in an attempt to mollify those with concerns said that da would be dark, but not too dark... is actually more proper in quotes, "dark, but not too dark."

 

as for why there has to be 6-8 dialogue encounters (is a different thing than 6-8 3-line dialogues) well, that too should be obvious. after bg2 people complained that they finished game before finishing romances. peoples also complained 'bout untimely interjections. am about to fight shadow dragon and jaheira suddenly wanna share her feelings? so now bio and obsidian does their dialogue encounters following main plot points. by the time you has a joinable npc become part o' group there will probably only be 6-8 main plot points remaining... 'specially if you has loads of side-quest opportunities.

 

"BG2 was the 1st attempt at serious romances. And they were far more than 3 line dialogues"

 

sure they was. individual dialogue responses were no more than 3 lines in length. the dialogues could go back and forth a bit during each such encounter, but how much can such a dialogue advance a romance w/o seeming cheesy? has always been the problem with a crpg romance 'cause you gotta advance through entire arc in a handful o' dialogue encounters that is optional and tangential to critical path. make those individual encounters too lengthy and peoples will be alternately bored or unable to suspend disbelief. Gone with the Wind were hundereds o' pages long... and less than half were dialogue (and Gromnir hated it.) Pride and Prejudice weren't as long as Gone with the Wind, but try to squeeze into kotor or je or even bg2. Romeo & Juliet were mostly dialogue, but the romance were hardly tangential. Gromnir is actually a big fan of The Graduate, a screenplay written by two men... loads of dialogue. chicks loved the movie & novel, The Notebook.... written by a guy btw. never saw or read it. how many pages?

 

with movies and lit you can use narration or montage to advance a story many years or even decades. one reason why Citizen Kane is famous is 'cause of the way it used the montage to advance story. in a matter o' a minute and a half o' screen time we sees Kane go from happy newlywed to henpecked husband. can't do that in a crpg 'cause player gotta be in control... no montage to advance romance.

 

literature or movies... name a tangential romance, one that had little impact 'pon what were going on with main plot, that were an all-time favorite. is some short stories, that is... short, but integral. however, even if we makes analogous, such short stories is never virtual all dialogue, and they rarely involve the boy-meets-girl step... romantic figures is already involved. crpg romances, being optional, starts with boy-meets-girl.

 

is not as easy as you folks wanna make it.

 

"The real issue when it comes to romances is the desire to write them. Not just because you "need" to include it as a feature, but because you BELIEVE in it as something that adds to the story and the life of the characters IG."

 

what a load of crap. maybe click your heals together three times and wish upon a star while you is at it. yes, no doubt if the biowarians simply opened themselves up to love, their crpg romances would blossom likes a field of poppies in april.

 

*snort*

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 23, 2008 by Gromnir

[J.E. Sawyer]

EDIT: Shouldn't be hard. Have a contest, or "hire" a few English Literature interns. The best candidate wins. The most difficult part would be choosing between all the submissions.

The most difficult part would be reading more than ten entries without pouring molten lead into my eye sockets.

[Pidesco]

You could just begin with the molten lead and save yourself the trouble.

[Monte Carlo]

My favourite is the BG2 mod that allows Romance Junkies to play all of them at once.

 

Imagine one that incorporates them with all the mod romances out there? On the other hand, just don't. Please.

 

It's probably against the Geneva Convention or something.

[Gromnir]

EDIT: Shouldn't be hard. Have a contest, or "hire" a few English Literature interns. The best candidate wins. The most difficult part would be choosing between all the submissions.

The most difficult part would be reading more than ten entries without pouring molten lead into my eye sockets.

 

to be fair, that might be appropriate payback for what Gromnir had to endure reading much of iwd:how dialogues... and some of iwd2. (admittedley, after we suffered through middle portions o' iwd2 we found we disliked it less than we had originally believed.)

 

romance is the reason why for to be saving the world or killing the monster... is typically the raison detre for being heroic in the first place. is not the subject matter o' some lightspeed tacked on optional sub-quest made incidental by design.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 23, 2008 by Gromnir

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Well, firstly, I will need to know what Data Protection Scam BiowarEA is planing to force upon their buyers this time round. If it is anything like what they using for Spore and Mass Effect they can keep the crap - I'm not paying full price for a rental copy, in fact I would probably not pay anything for it as that would support something I loath. Anyway, about the romances, I would have to agree that most CRPGs have extraordinarily bad ones; although this does not have to be the case. As another poster pointed out already, there are plenty -well, at least a handful- of third-party modifications that contain well written and constructed trysts and relationships. That said, I would not expect major game studios to produce any unless the overbearing hype about virtual sex -even if there is either none directly featured in the game or "on camera"- calms down among the social conservatives and liberals who are trying to get on the "games are evil" bandwagon.

[Pidesco]

Dialogue.

 

 

Well, the writing seems fairly nondescript and unimpressive, the animations in the dialogue scene are wooden, and the faces of the king and his advisor are simply atrocious. On the other hand, the battle scene appeared competent enough, and they managed to get a bucket load of characters on screen at the same time. I hope that isn't seen only in cutscenes.

 

Wait and see.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Arggg... So far Dragon Age looks like something worth picking up after it falls in price and not when it first comes out, if at all.

[Stephen Amber]

There actually was a writing contest of sorts with the "make up an item + item history and we will add it to the game" for IWD:HoW expansion.... remember it was a bit short and people complained, so they offered a free download with those community generated items included. Think there were five total. Mine was one of them. lol

[J.E. Sawyer]

to be fair, that might be appropriate payback for what Gromnir had to endure reading much of iwd:how dialogues... and some of iwd2. (admittedley, after we suffered through middle portions o' iwd2 we found we disliked it less than we had originally believed.)

I only wrote a small number of dialogues for HoW... I think Mebdinga, Edion Caradoc, and Vexing Thoughts. I don't remember them being particularly bad.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Dialogue.

 

 

Well, the writing seems fairly nondescript and unimpressive, the animations in the dialogue scene are wooden, and the faces of the king and his advisor are simply atrocious. On the other hand, the battle scene appeared competent enough, and they managed to get a bucket load of characters on screen at the same time. I hope that isn't seen only in cutscenes.

 

Wait and see.

 

It looks... decent. Nothing amazing at all.

 

The music is bad and the king's "For Feraldan" scream was underwhelmingly pathetic.

 

And the comments pretty much sum it up:

"So.....the Locust Horde turned in their guns and vehicles for some old-fashioned swords and armor and teamed up with the Greenskins and the forces of Chaos to.....raid Helm's Deep as a promo for a new Total War game. Right? "

Edited August 24, 2008 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[Tigranes]

Thought it was pretty standard Bioware writing, but weren't the range and quality of animations quite impressive? It's certainly better than what you see in most RPGs, isn't it?

 

The setting looks truly crap so far, though.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Personally, I liked the animations. The faces are awful though. Mass Effect did faces beautifully but these just look like they've had brownish-black shiny stuff smeared all over them.

[Volourn]

Looks awesome. Best RPG since ME, and MOTB.

[mrmud]

Arggg... So far Dragon Age looks like something worth picking up after it falls in price and not when it first comes out, if at all.

Dont kidd yourself.

You have 2800 posts on a forum for a CRPG developer. Just like me you are starved for any kind of half-decent rpg and in the end we will devour anything they throw us.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Just like me you are starved for any kind of half-decent rpg and in the end we will devour anything they throw us.

 

What the ****? You really think I'll buy it straight away if the game looks bad? Feel free to waste your money, but I have some standards and BioWarEA is going to have to live up to them if they want the full amount of monies. As for "being starved" I'll just replay the classics if I get "hungry."

[Tigranes]

mrmud - certainly some of us would, but sometimes I think we're more resistant... heck, I still haven't bought Mass Effect (and won't).

 

I really, really want this game to be good. I like Dave Gaider and I want to believe. In fact, even if this Ferelden crap and LOTR wannabeness is disgusting, I'll buy it if theres good tactical gameplay reminiscent of IE engine... didn't see too much of it in the video yet, just a lot of confused hackin'.

[Morgoth]

No doubt for me that DA will be good. Not necessarily a classic a'la BG2 (but hope never dies), but certainly worth the money. Bio never disappointed me, and they won't do that in the future, for certain.

[Volourn]

"didn't see too much of it in the video yet, just a lot of confused hackin'."

 

if one were to watch BG without having played it in videosall they'd see is that, too.