Jokela School shooting

[Musopticon?]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7082795.stm

 

If there's someone there who isn't informed yet, on the 7th of this month, a high schooler Pekka-Eric Auvinen went to his Literature and Grammar clasess and singlemindedly shot to death 8 people, including the principal and the nurse in the middle of sub-urban Jokela. The day before he had left a message to the net which proclaimed that "Today, history will be made". Apparently he was influenced by the previous school massacres and had discussed about it before with Dillon Cossey who was arrested a couple of days ago before he managed to attempt a similar attack in Philadelphia.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting

 

Right now, it's a ****ing riot here. Nearly everyone is scared, almost no one expected that this could happen in Finland. It's like suddenly everyone has awoken to little our world is. Flags are in half-mast, students won't go to schools or aren't allowed to go and people are yelling for stricter gun laws in response to how "easily" Pekka-Eric has got one. I have a pal who lost friends in Tuusula and my family was devastated on Thursday because "Something like this just isn't possible in FInland"(according to a family friend). I heard that some students had tried to make the principal close the school because they knew Pekka had a gun and had made a video about the shooting, but no one believed them or didn't think anyone capable of this. It feels a bit like Finland has finally realized how naive our idea of a northern Nokia-haven really is and how false the thought of things not being able to reach us, even though we are the most networked nation in Europe. It's about time though, no matter how hard the reckoning came.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Our reaction here was much the same "How the hell could something like this happen in Finland?!" but the truth is that it can and will happen anywhere. School massacres are now a cultural phenomena of the western world, and no amount of legislation is going to stop it. Once the idea begins to circulate, the cat is out of the bag. Its copycat behaviour at work, and mentally ill people around the world has discovered a really neat method of venting their anger whilst becoming instant celebrities.

 

In Sweden we havent had any mass killings yet, but people have been stabbed and shot in schools. Teenagers have been caught trying to sneak pipebombs into school buildings and so on. It's only a matter of time before someone steals their dads hunting rifle and uses it on his classmates.

 

 

It's a shame that Auvinen suceedd in taking his life, though. Because every shooter caught alive is an essential clue into discovering the psychology behind this kind of behaviour. How we can detect and stop dangerous individuals before they snap.

[Walsingham]

I read abvout this in the news, but thought I'd wait for one of you chaps to bring it up. I didn't know what to say besides:

1: How pathetic these individuals are

2: How they are almost always known to the authorities before the attack

3: Nothing is done about them prior to the attack

4: In my opinion stopping guns won't stop these individuals. They can and will switch to other means of lethal force such as bombs or arson.

5: I think the solution is much more effective monitoring and care.

[Kaftan Barlast]

One thing that this made me think about is the question wether the violence in media/entertainment/litterature and so reflects the ever hardening society we live in, or wether our society grows to adapt the violence in media/entertainment/litterature?

 

 

 

(The answer is society influences art, and art returns a small amount back to society. But let's pretend we dont know that)

[kirottu]

I still remember that day like it was this weeks wednesday. :sad:

 

It

[Moatilliatta]

It's a shame that Auvinen suceedd in taking his life, though. Because every shooter caught alive is an essential clue into discovering the psychology behind this kind of behaviour. How we can detect and stop dangerous individuals before they snap.

Thank you for being the first person I have seen who have wished him captured for a reason that didn't include bloody and painful retribution. The irony of these mass killings is that it usually brings out un-likable traits in the people who see it, such as the revenge wishes.

 

5: I think the solution is much more effective monitoring and care.

What kind of monitoring and care? If what Musopticon? has told us is true then there is no need for it, since individuals acted on the signs that he gave, the real problem is with such strange notions as cultural superiority (It can't happen here!) and general cautiousness (I better not interfere because of x reason) when it comes to confronting relative strangers.

[ramza]

Damn, there is a similar thread on the codex boards which had a link to a website that had files that belonged to the guy who committed the massacre. For some reason, those files aren't available anymore...

 

I have made a consolidated document of that guy's manifesto (see attached file). Tells you a lot about his psychological state... damn bastard should have been beaten to death...

 

 

relevant links:

 

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21201

 

http://koti.phnet.fi/pres/a/jokela/

Manifesto.doc

[Meshugger]

Yeah, someone mentioned it during our coffee-break during work. He just said: "Turn on the TV, otherwise you will not believe me". First reaction: Probably some lonely angry kid, reading some Nietzsche, listening to black metal and loves guns. Scary on how right i were.

 

Reading his manifesto and watching some of his Youtube-debates(while they were up), one can easily notice that the guy was quite intelligent and had a clearer message than Stalin and Pol Pot. Very detailed critizism on what's wrong in this western society, but somewhere down the line, instead thinking about what one can do to make it better, he just gave up wanted to eradicate it all.

 

We all wanted him to survive because of 1)Do a psychological test and understand on how these minds works and 2)See him alive and see the irony of being a living vegetable and even "less" than a man, according to his own perverse reality.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...reading some Nietzsche...

 

Personally I think Nietzsche has some good points when it comes to religion, and I think he general gets an overly negative portrayal in the media and other places -One of the main reason being that, although he hated the Nazi party, his sister, who loved Hitler and the Third Reich, was given the task of writing the first biography after he died. Needless to say she twisted his work to support the Nazi Party and the persecution of the Jews.-.

[Musopticon?]

I think the main reason Nietzsche gets a negative portrayal is because he was a nihilist.

 

I'm not saying he was wrong, just that nobody thinks well of nihilists.

 

 

As for Auvinen, I read the manifesto and he didn't seem much more intelligent than the average, just more read. From the manifesto, it didn't seem like he had anything much to say, not to mention anything new, he was just bitter and alienated.

[Fionavar]

Thread Pruned: Joking about less people really is not funny ... consider this a gentle reminder to be more aware of posting choices ...

[Walsingham]

I think the main reason Nietzsche gets a negative portrayal is because he was a nihilist.

 

I'm not saying he was wrong, just that nobody thinks well of nihilists.

 

 

As for Auvinen, I read the manifesto and he didn't seem much more intelligent than the average, just more read. From the manifesto, it didn't seem like he had anything much to say, not to mention anything new, he was just bitter and alienated.

 

It is the signal defect of education that it permits us to dress up childish ignorance as if it were reasoned thought. I think you're correct that these teenage nihilists are really just angry eedjits.

[mkreku]

Thread Pruned: Joking about less people really is not funny ... consider this a gentle reminder to be more aware of posting choices ...

I'm happy we have you here to determine which jokes are funny and which aren't.

 

Tell me when I can laugh next, I sure need it right now.

[Sand]

There is a simple distinction, Mkreku. Jokes about a tragedy in which innocent people die are not funny, ever.

[Walsingham]

Thread Pruned: Joking about less people really is not funny ... consider this a gentle reminder to be more aware of posting choices ...

I'm happy we have you here to determine which jokes are funny and which aren't.

 

Tell me when I can laugh next, I sure need it right now.

 

Sure thing. I'll tell you when my mom dies and you can make jokes about it on the day of the funeral.

[Tale]

I think the main reason Nietzsche gets a negative portrayal is because he was a nihilist.

 

I'm not saying he was wrong, just that nobody thinks well of nihilists.

The NWN2 module I'm working on, indefinitely on hiatus, got positive responses when I put together a description for feedback. This description included the phrase "traditional fantasy from a nihilist."

 

That said, I think I'm liked.

[Walsingham]

I recall you being more nihilistic last year.

[Musopticon?]

So do I.

 

 

And for the record, pruning mkreku's joke was almost humorously prude. Coming from a Swede, a joke like that is a given. I doubt anyone here will throw a fit over something so trivial.

[Tale]

Is that a joke on how I wasn't around last year?

[Aram]

Nihilists! **** me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, but at least it's an ethos.

[Pidesco]

It would be easy to argue that everyone is a nihilist trying to pretend they aren't.

[Fenghuang]

Nihilists! **** me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, but at least it's an ethos.

 

 

 

Though ideally you should've started with one of the earlier quotes from that exchange and let someone else finish.

 

Also, as somebody from another forum said of this "The Finns are heavily armed, drink a lot, and have a tendency towards depression... frankly I think it's a testament to their national character that these sorts of things are as rare as they are."

[Aram]

Nihilists! **** me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, but at least it's an ethos.

 

 

 

Though ideally you should've started with one of the earlier quotes from that exchange and let someone else finish.

 

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[samm]

deadly nightshade: true.

I think the main reason Nietzsche gets a negative portrayal is because he was a nihilist.

 

I'm not saying he was wrong, just that nobody thinks well of nihilists.

Nietzsche himself doesn't think well of nihilists, I recommend you reread some of his points about that matter. In fact, he thinks people following religion are nihilists because they delay living their life to an afterlife, and the ideal would be to overcome that. He was very agreeing on life, not on death or nothing - most people just don't seem to get this

 

Meshugger:

Your post shows much of the reasons for a common mistake: People don't become that hateful because of (abusing) Nietzsche or listening to Black Metal. People are made that by others. You aren't likely to go out and kill people (except probably in some dangerous cases of schizophrenia) if you've got friends, if there are people treating you well, if your parents respect you for what you are, or at least leave you alone if you need that. The beginning is really as simple as that. I agree that there might be a common cause of people turning to the "darker" side of life and people killing others. It's that cause that needs to be condemned, not the lifestyle that might result of such a cause (and actually might prevent you from hurting others, because you've found a good way to deal with the **** that has been done to you). The cause is the (probably casual and careless) cruelty of others.

 

Aram:

Yes, and what an ethos. It was simplistic, cruel, irrational... Everything is an ethos by definition: Ethos = habit, way of life... Great remark, really...

 

jokes:

Death can be a reason for sadness - and for ways of dealing with it, not the worst one of which is humor.

Edited November 13, 2007 by samm

[Gorgon]

Thread Pruned: Joking about less people really is not funny ... consider this a gentle reminder to be more aware of posting choices ...

I'm happy we have you here to determine which jokes are funny and which aren't.

 

Tell me when I can laugh next, I sure need it right now.

 

Sure thing. I'll tell you when my mom dies and you can make jokes about it on the day of the funeral.

Whats a less person ?

 

 

Anyway this is trajic, and the Finns maybe have too many guns for their own good considering their suicide rate. Awfully dark most of the year and the weather is worse than here.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Gorgon