Zero Punctuation - Yahtzee reviews

[Kaftan Barlast]

CoD 4 still has the lame tension/realism breaking health regeneration. I really really hate it. It belongs in Halo, not a military shooter.

 

 

I strongly prefer it to the old system of having hitpoints and having to pick up medkits all the time. I think its a design improvement that helps avoid the frustration of comming out of a firefight with low health and thus being unavoidably mowed down in the next encounter, forcing the player to load a previous save or backtrack until finding a medkit.

[GreasyDogMeat]

I wouldn't mind regen to a certain point, like the 25-40% range, or a system like MoH Airborne where the health bar is split into 4 parts that regenerate, but are will not regen if a bar is completly lost.

 

Full instantaneous health regen is ridiculous and immersion breaking. I remember how intense CoD 1 was. Made me feel like I was in the war. When I played Call of Duty 2 the health regen absolutly ruined that feeling. The strategy and tactics I used in CoD 1 were pointless now. Charge in, go nuts and then hide behind something and that gaping chest wound would close itself up. Like I said, its fine in a sci-fi shooter with energy shields etc. but it is lame in a military shooter.

[Hell Kitty]

Charge in, go nuts and then hide behind something and that gaping chest wound would close itself up.

 

You can do that in CoD 1, it's just that the gaping chest wound wouldn't close itself up until you run over a first aid kit.

 

It's not a realism issue, as health that regenerates when running over a box or pressing a button is no more real as health that regenerates automatically after a few seconds, and as such the fact that it's a military shooter is irrelevant.

 

Oh, and what did you mean when you said the US campaign was a complete rip-off? A rip-off of what?

Edited February 7, 2008 by Hell Kitty

[Nick_i_am]

Games like Operation Flashpoint and the original Rainbow Sixs do exist, if you want the immersion of 'real combat' you should be playing those. If you want the immersion of being in an action film then you have to understand that the point of games that emulate action films is to keep the player IN the action.

 

I mean, complaining about the lack of immersion of healing bullet wounds seems counter intuative when you've just taken 15 bullets to the head and are still running around like a mad Irishman.

[alanschu]

Don't underestimate the Irish!

[GreasyDogMeat]

Charge in, go nuts and then hide behind something and that gaping chest wound would close itself up.

 

You can do that in CoD 1, it's just that the gaping chest wound wouldn't close itself up until you run over a first aid kit.

 

It's not a realism issue, as health that regenerates when running over a box or pressing a button is no more real as health that regenerates automatically after a few seconds, and as such the fact that it's a military shooter is irrelevant.

 

Oh, and what did you mean when you said the US campaign was a complete rip-off? A rip-off of what?

 

It was only 4! missions long, and most of those missions were extremly short.

Not to mention you are nuked at the end of those 4 short missions.

 

 

The original CoD and even the sequel gave you 3 nations to play from and gave you a decent amount of time with each. Each CoD has given a certain army the glory. In CoD 1 and UO the Russians get the glory in the final and most dramatic campaign. In CoD 2 it was the Americans. I can understand the Brits finally getting central spotlight in CoD 4, but that didn't mean they had to short change the American campaign at all... it was a joke.

 

While I believe that the health system of CoD 1 may not be perfect, I disagree about realism. Running over a health kit feels more like you are bandaging yourself... while hiding behind something feels more like super nanites in your body are repairing your vital organs... in WWII.

 

I completly disagree about how you could play CoD 1 the same way. If I rushed into every battle it was far far more dangerous as there was limited health. Another major problem is how it changed enemy AI. One thing I noticed in CoD 1 is that enemies had a more realistic AI. They would fire on you but they weren't all crack shots, and they also fired on team mates. Because of CoD 2 & 4's regen health, they need to put much more focus on downing you and you will see the AI almost exclussively aim at you, and aim better because they need to put more rounds in you because of your magic healing.

 

In CoD 1, despite many standard FPS unrealistic issues, it felt more like I was playing the History Channel, but in the sequels it feels more like I'm playing Die Hard, and I just didn't like the change at all.

[Hell Kitty]

Oh I thought you mean it was ripping off a movie or another game. Heh.

 

I don't understand how you think running over a health kit feels more like you are bandaging yourself, but then maybe you're so talented that you can run around shooting people while simultaneously bandaging serious wounds. Do you have four arms? Are you Wolverine? Both systems feel like magic to me.

 

Some dude on another forum had an interesting way to look at a regenerating health system - when the screen turns red or blurs or whatever a particular game does, those are near misses, the only shot that hits is the one that kills you.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Oh I thought you mean it was ripping off a movie or another game. Heh.

 

I don't understand how you think running over a health kit feels more like you are bandaging yourself, but then maybe you're so talented that you can run around shooting people while simultaneously bandaging serious wounds. Do you have four arms? Are you Wolverine? Both systems feel like magic to me.

 

Some dude on another forum had an interesting way to look at a regenerating health system - when the screen turns red or blurs or whatever a particular game does, those are near misses, the only shot that hits is the one that kills you.

 

Well, many actions in FPS are glazed over and don't show an animation at all. Even in CoD 4 when you are supposed to plant C4 on an enemy vehicle, it just magically pops on the vehicle. We assume as players that he actually reached out and placed it, but we dont see it. I can look at the old style health kits the same way.

 

Also, I can't look at the regeneration the same way, because when you are shot in CoD 2 or 4 your character violently wretches back, like they have been actually hit by the bullet so I just can't 'imagine' this as near misses. You've been hit big time.

 

My personal preference would be for a combination of health kits and regeneration. It could regenerate small portions of your health, but serious wounds would require med kits or an on field medic to heal you. I think Chronicles of Riddick did a great job with the whole health kits vs regeneration system as well as MoH Airborne. I just can't except the complete and full health regen over a period of seconds... its ridiculous unless you are playing a sci-fi shooter with energy shields or something.

[Pop]

Oh I thought you mean it was ripping off a movie or another game. Heh.

 

I don't understand how you think running over a health kit feels more like you are bandaging yourself, but then maybe you're so talented that you can run around shooting people while simultaneously bandaging serious wounds. Do you have four arms? Are you Wolverine? Both systems feel like magic to me.

 

Some dude on another forum had an interesting way to look at a regenerating health system - when the screen turns red or blurs or whatever a particular game does, those are near misses, the only shot that hits is the one that kills you.

That's the way it worked in GRAW. You could be hit 3 times. The more automatic fire that was shot at you (depending on the difficulty, cover, etc.) the greater the chance of one of those bullets actually hitting you.

[Hell Kitty]

So you can imagine actions being performed even when they aren't shown, they happen instantly, but you can't imagine near misses? You can't imagine a complete and full health regen over a period of seconds but you can imagine a complete and full health regen as soon as you touch a health kit? It's not a realism issue, it's an immersion one. But that's the thing about immersion, a feature is only immersive if you like it, and when you like it you're more willing to fill in the blanks or imagine things that don't actually occur. Health packs feel real to you, to me both systems feel fake but I don't have an issue with either so they have no effect on immersion for me. As was pointed out earlier these games aren't military simulators, they're playable action movies.

 

My pet hate immersion killer is a hud that tries to give an in-game reason for it's existence. The ui exists to give me, the player, information, it doesn't need to exist for the character. I prefer my games not try to pretend they aren't games.

 

And you're wrong about your character violently wretching back from being hit big time in 2 & 4. I just loaded them and the screen shakes a bit, but it doesn't feel like more than a flesh wound.

 

It could regenerate small portions of your health, but serious wounds would require med kits or an on field medic to heal you.

 

I'd like to see something like MGS3, where you needed specific items to heal specific injuries. Of course this would only work in a game in which survival is a major component, not FPS which constantly has you in combat.

[GreasyDogMeat]

So you can imagine actions being performed even when they aren't shown, they happen instantly, but you can't imagine near misses? You can't imagine a complete and full health regen over a period of seconds but you can imagine a complete and full health regen as soon as you touch a health kit? It's not a realism issue, it's an immersion one. But that's the thing about immersion, a feature is only immersive if you like it, and when you like it you're more willing to fill in the blanks or imagine things that don't actually occur. Health packs feel real to you, to me both systems feel fake but I don't have an issue with either so they have no effect on immersion for me. As was pointed out earlier these games aren't military simulators, they're playable action movies.

 

My pet hate immersion killer is a hud that tries to give an in-game reason for it's existence. The ui exists to give me, the player, information, it doesn't need to exist for the character. I prefer my games not try to pretend they aren't games.

 

And you're wrong about your character violently wretching back from being hit big time in 2 & 4. I just loaded them and the screen shakes a bit, but it doesn't feel like more than a flesh wound.

 

It could regenerate small portions of your health, but serious wounds would require med kits or an on field medic to heal you.

 

I'd like to see something like MGS3, where you needed specific items to heal specific injuries. Of course this would only work in a game in which survival is a major component, not FPS which constantly has you in combat.

 

Uh, maybe we are playing different games, but I also played CoD 4 not too long ago and a gunshot sends my aim reeling up when aiming down the site... I'd deffinitly call that more than a little shake. A near miss would be a bullet wizzing by your ear or something... not a jolt that sends my aim and screen up and down making me miss shots and produces audible thud sounds. Its one thing to not be worried about an animation not playing that shows you apply the bandages in a kit, its another to pretend something that happens is not happening. I suppose it is an issue of how much you let something affect you, but for me the CoD 2/4 regen system is the lamest and most unrealistic system of healing I've seen in any game period. Even Halo 1, which I believe introduced health regen in FPS games had a health system that required med kits and used regen for the shielding system.

 

I watched a video of Far Cry 2 recently and I think it has one of the best healing methods I've seen in a FPS. I wish I could find it to link it here, but basically depending on how you are injured you need to use a specific healing method, very similar to what you mention in MGS3. If you catch on fire you pat it out, gunshots require removing the bullet and bandaging etc.

[Gorth]

I liked the system in JA2. You get damaged in combat, you start bleeding to the point of death if first aid isn't given. You can't "heal" during combat missions, only stop dying. Recovery can be a very long and slow process with characters missing out on a lot of the action. Only way to speed things up is in a proper hospital or with a character with medic skills dedicating their time to "doctoring" you (i.e. putting both patient(s) and medic out of commission for a while).

 

It does of course help that you have a lot of characters to choose from unlike fps games.

[Musopticon?]

I watched a video of Far Cry 2 recently and I think it has one of the best healing methods I've seen in a FPS. I wish I could find it to link it here, but basically depending on how you are injured you need to use a specific healing method, very similar to what you mention in MGS3. If you catch on fire you pat it out, gunshots require removing the bullet and bandaging etc.

That's not it, exactly. MGS 3 has you gathering different healing ingredients, etc, but in Far Cry 2 the bullet removal and other animations are just that; animations. They are supposed to represent minor injury being healed, those wounds are able to be regenerated(your character bandages himself for the moment, but it's basically regeneration), but for "larger injuries"(not yet known what, but supposedly broken limb bones, fractured intestines, etc) you need rest and location with healing supplies, like a field hospital or a supply depot.

 

It's all very neat and in the principles of fps gaming, you aren't hampered so much as to not be able to get into proper firefigts, you can still take a dozen bullets, but now you think twice about attacking installations head on.

[Moatilliatta]

I liked the system in JA2. You get damaged in combat, you start bleeding to the point of death if first aid isn't given. You can't "heal" during combat missions, only stop dying. Recovery can be a very long and slow process with characters missing out on a lot of the action. Only way to speed things up is in a proper hospital or with a character with medic skills dedicating their time to "doctoring" you (i.e. putting both patient(s) and medic out of commission for a while).

 

It does of course help that you have a lot of characters to choose from unlike fps games.

One of the best systems, yes. Even in JA2, though, healing was unrealistically fast, which is good because I wouldn't want to wait three days for a character to heal a broken limb, it would just be a waste of time.

 

The bandage system had flaws though, such as it being very easy to forget to bring a first aid kit and as such being unable to even bandage the smallest of wounds, since the game only recognize the bandages in first aid kits as being able to stop bleeding.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The question that Id ask myself is "What does a health/healing system this complex add to the gameplay, and does it really belong in this game?"

 

 

For CoD4 it would just add a completly pointless element, that goes right against the fast-paced action this game is all about. It would be like adding a feature that kept a measure on how much dirt got into your gun, and that you had to stop every 5min to clean your gun or it will jam. It might sound cool on paper but is it: Realistic? Yeah. Pointless? Definently. Frustrating? Perhaps.

[Tale]

I'm only in this thread because I saw the words immersion and MGS3.

 

Y MGS3

3 anyone who talks about immersion

Edited February 11, 2008 by Tale

[Lokey]

I'm only in this thread because I saw the words immersion and MGS3.

 

Y MGS3

</3 anyone who talks about immersion

Still leaves 3174 posts on which I disagree with you

 

The only immersion was in how the world reacted to your character: water, grass and the like, which Obsidian devs should take a damn hint from. Story immersion was almost non-existent: fourth wall broken every 30 seconds in some unfunny way, convoluted plot (granite octopus territory here), huge railroading. The mini-game healing system was probably the worst idea at least in how it was presented, etc...

[Tale]

You're talking to a guy who firmly believes that nearly any argument about "immersion" is, on its face, reaching. I understand the concept and the goal, but as it is commonly presented (as distinct from simply engrossing), it is nonsense.

 

And I really shouldn't go into that schpiel.

Edited February 12, 2008 by Tale

[Hell Kitty]

And I really shouldn't go into that schpiel.

 

Oh go on, you know you want to.

[Pop]

This week - Simcity Societies

[Tale]

And I really shouldn't go into that schpiel.

 

Oh go on, you know you want to.

 

Multifarious avenues of approach vie for attention as potential retorts to immersion's ill-natured shenanigans. To organize my discussion, I suggest that we take one step back in the causal chain and rise to the challenge of thwarting immersion's snarky plans. If you can make any sense out immersion's dirty roorbacks then you must have gotten higher marks in school than I did. I don't just warrant that two wrongs don't make a right; I can back that up with facts. For instance, immersion doesn't use words for communication or for exchanging information. It uses them to disarm, to hypnotize, to mislead, and to deceive. Immersion's spokesmen coerce children into becoming activists willing to serve, promote, spy, and fight for immersion's opuscula. In this case, one cannot help but recall that we must overcome the fears that beset us every day of our lives. We must overcome the fear that it will spoon-feed us its pabulum. And to overcome these fears, we must lead the way to the future, not to the past.

 

If immersion honestly believes that some of my points are not valid, I would love to get some specific feedback from it. Immersion's favorite tactic is known as "deceiving with the truth". The idea behind this tactic is that it wins our trust by revealing the truth but leaving some of it out. This makes us less likely to show you, as dispassionately as possible, what kind of birdbrained thoughts immersion is thinking about these days. Immersion preaches tolerance yet actively refuses to tolerate views that differ from its own. May we never forget this if we are to deny immersion and its buddies a chance to mollycoddle the worst kinds of disagreeable phonies I've ever seen.

[Istima Loke]

Sim City Societies

 

Edit: Missed Pop's post

Edited February 13, 2008 by Istima Loke

[Nick_i_am]

Multifarious avenues of approach vie for attention as potential retorts to immersion's ill-natured shenanigans. To organize my discussion, I suggest that we take one step back in the causal chain and rise to the challenge of thwarting immersion's snarky plans. If you can make any sense out immersion's dirty roorbacks then you must have gotten higher marks in school than I did. I don't just warrant that two wrongs don't make a right; I can back that up with facts. For instance, immersion doesn't use words for communication or for exchanging information. It uses them to disarm, to hypnotize, to mislead, and to deceive. Immersion's spokesmen coerce children into becoming activists willing to serve, promote, spy, and fight for immersion's opuscula. In this case, one cannot help but recall that we must overcome the fears that beset us every day of our lives. We must overcome the fear that it will spoon-feed us its pabulum. And to overcome these fears, we must lead the way to the future, not to the past.

 

If immersion honestly believes that some of my points are not valid, I would love to get some specific feedback from it. Immersion's favorite tactic is known as "deceiving with the truth". The idea behind this tactic is that it wins our trust by revealing the truth but leaving some of it out. This makes us less likely to show you, as dispassionately as possible, what kind of birdbrained thoughts immersion is thinking about these days. Immersion preaches tolerance yet actively refuses to tolerate views that differ from its own. May we never forget this if we are to deny immersion and its buddies a chance to mollycoddle the worst kinds of disagreeable phonies I've ever seen.

 

As poorly qualified as I am to build a true community of spirit and purpose based on mutual respect and caring, I hope you will bear with me while I begin this sincere and earnest attempt. And please don't get mad with me if, in doing so, I must reveal some shocking facts about your complaint . In the text that follows, I don't intend to recount all of the damage caused by your complaint's raving strictures but I do want to point out that your complaint's faculty for deception is so far above anyone else's, it really must be considered different in kind as well as in degree. To recapitulate, it's time for your complaint to get back on the reality bus.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Holy ****, Yathzee is making videos for GDC!

 

This is going to be awesome.

[Meshugger]

Nice, is it "midnight" in 20 minutes? Or is it way later, like, yankee-time-midnight? My sleep demands an answer!