Obsidian's Feargus Urquhart at RPG Codex forum

[Meshugger]

kotor and ps:t got far more in common than does most of the snobbish class of ps:t fans wanna admit.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was under the impression that many complained about the similarities between KotOR 2 and PS:T, not the other way around.

[J.E. Sawyer]

josh ain't a slow guy, so we thinks he is playing dumb for effect.

I didn't understand what you were trying to say.

 

like it or not, bioware essentially remade ps:t in a more popular setting and simply added more appealing combats and shorter individual dialogues... and they made lots of money doing it. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

I've had groin pulls that were more fun than KotOR combats, but otherwise you're right.

[Cantousent]

Gromnir, quit playing your own advocate. :Eldar's grinning at Gromnir icon:

 

There were many things I admired about KotOR 2. I've always stated I enjoyed the game. I'd suggest it to anyone looking for a good Star Wars game. There's more to the writing than the dialogue. For instance, the entire intro was sparse on actual text, but whoever developed that whole scene created the best intro I've played for any game. The character interaction for most NPCs was well done. At times, it was even brilliant.

 

So, what's my biggest beef? Kreia was comparable to Ravel, only she fell far short. I don't have time to elaborate, but I do have a question: do you think Kreia compared well with Ravel?

 

Edit: Ah Gromnir, I see you cited Ravel. That's my biggest beef. ...But I happen to know you also enjoyed the story teller. One of my favorites as well. There was more to PST than the diatribes on Philosophy.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Eldar

[alanschu]

isn't the xbox 360 a computer any ways... its not much different..  not sure what the language is going to be. but it looks like a mini computer.. hell just look at the stats on it... but if it is why would it be so hard to make the games for it and pc..  I am sure the language is different but on stats its a small hopped up computer..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That may have been true about the original XBOX, but the processor on the XBOX 360 is quite a bit different than what most people have in their computers today.

[Llyranor]

Non-mindless combat in the KOTOR series would have been somewhat nice to have.

[Jorian Drake]

Non-mindless combat in the KOTOR series would have been somewhat nice to have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There aren't so many games with 'mind' actually

[Llyranor]

All the more reason to continue the trend, my Jedi friend

[Gromnir]

josh ain't a slow guy, so we thinks he is playing dumb for effect.

I didn't understand what you were trying to say.

 

like it or not, bioware essentially remade ps:t in a more popular setting and simply added more appealing combats and shorter individual dialogues... and they made lots of money doing it. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've had groin pulls that were more fun than KotOR combats, but otherwise you're right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

as crazy as it sounds, the fact that josh and Gromnir hated kotor combats did not keep many gamers from enjoying seeing and hearing star wars lightsabres and blasters battles. lord knows that we cannot explain why so many folks liked kotor combat, but there it is.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

From a development standpoint, it's better to have a combat system that is overly simplistic then one that is too complicated. People are much more comfortable breezing through a game then they are getting stuck and not really understanding what is happening.

[mr insomniac]

as crazy as it sounds, the fact that josh and Gromnir hated kotor combats did not keep many gamers from enjoying seeing and hearing star wars lightsabres and blasters battles.  lord knows that we cannot explain why so many folks liked kotor combat, but there it is.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's a factor in Kotor's success, part of its charm for me. I liked the game myself, and part of my enjoyment was because I got the chance to have a lightsaber and cut down enemies with it. Quality of the combat notwithstanding, it was just cool to be a Jedi.

 

I tried to think of examples where Kotor and PS:T differed, to counter another post of yours, but you said "essentially remade" and I realized anything I came up with would be nitpicking.

 

But I think what PS:T did was take alot more risks. Planescape setting itself wasn't successful, not well known or liked by the majority of AD&D'ers, let alone gamers. But BIS took the setting and ran with it. Whatever its flaws, and yeah I'm not too blind by my love for the game to see them either, it still ended up being more than the sum of its parts. Unfortunately the risks didn't pay off.

 

Kotor didn't take those same kinds of risks. Put a CRPG in a Star Wars setting and a lot of people are gonna buy it. The fact that it ended up being a pretty good game is a bonus.

[Berserk]

josh ain't a slow guy, so we thinks he is playing dumb for effect.

I didn't understand what you were trying to say.

 

like it or not, bioware essentially remade ps:t in a more popular setting and simply added more appealing combats and shorter individual dialogues... and they made lots of money doing it. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've had groin pulls that were more fun than KotOR combats, but otherwise you're right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

as crazy as it sounds, the fact that josh and Gromnir hated kotor combats did not keep many gamers from enjoying seeing and hearing star wars lightsabres and blasters battles. lord knows that we cannot explain why so many folks liked kotor combat, but there it is.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only good thing with the KotoR's was that you could twink your character to the high heavens combatwise, which in turn minimized combat time. I guess that is the kindest thing I have to say about it..

[Gabrielle]

Only time I had problems with the combat of KotOR was on the Star Forge.  Goddamn stupid AI just would not have the NPCs stay where I put them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Must be the game players fault. I never had any problems there. My npcs did what they were told.

[alanschu]

Nah. My NPCs ran around and did stupid stuff too.

[Tigranes]

Missing reply timing due to timezones suck.

 

the funny thing is that what some ps:t fans laud in their favorite game, they despised in kotor2. some of the same kinda crappy over-the-top and lugubrious dialogues showed up in kotor2 and such stuff made people wince. no doubt some of the bis/obsidian developers were surprised by the different reception their fantastic writing got.

 

Again, you are the only one calling them "the same". KOTOR/2's writing was definitely different than PS:T. I honestly don't see how they are similar apart fromt he fact that the two games are both in the same subgroup of RPGs. Melissan's entire dialogue database was over-the-top, etc, doesn't mean that every IE game evar was the same with different reception.

 

and yeah, we is selective in noting the parallels

[Nartwak]

He's not calling them the same.

[Tigranes]

Very well, rephrasing:

 

" some of the same kinda dialogues". My point is that PS:T and KOTOR can't even be called similar games apart from the fact that they belong to t he same subgenre.

 

 

edit: and that by no means is this true: "like it or not, bioware essentially remade ps:t in a more popular setting and simply added more appealing combats and shorter individual dialogues... and they made lots of money doing it."

Edited February 1, 2006 by Tigranes

[Gromnir]

ps:t and kotor combat gots similarities: they both is horrible.

 

as to other aspects, you keep ignoring all the stuff that we noted as being same/similar... which is fine. is your prerogative to say "no it isn't" every time we says "yes it is." makes debate kinda pointless though.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

"Melissan's entire dialogue database was over-the-top, etc, doesn't mean that every IE game evar was the same with different reception."

 

why is it that folks gotta beat the crap out of the scarecrow to try and make a point?

[Plano Skywalker]

KOTOR's AI sucked.

 

combat: they DID NOT do what they were told

 

pathfinding: sucked just as much

 

finding secret panels, etc: not unless it was scripted

 

the PC had to do EVERYTHING...had to solve every puzzle, etc.

 

even if they incorporate RT combat for the PC, the other squad members will still have "multilayered" combat that is based on a (presumably) customizable AI script. That AI script needs to be at least 10 times better, IMO.

 

beyond that, however, the lack of good ranged weapons on the high end was bad...there is no reason why a 15th level Mandalore should not have access to a shoulder-mounted missle laucher if that is how you choose to play him. maybe my **PC** should not be able to wield such a thing but it should be available to Soldier-classed NPCs on my ship. I also like sentry guns that the engineer can set up and operate remotely...trap-setting...role-playing....

 

flame throwers for non-droids

 

smoke grenades (while your squad is all wearing infrared goggles)

 

flashbang grenades....then have your droids do a sweep. (more droid possibilities!)

 

jet packs (need more of Z axis in this game)

 

devices that have a continuous radius effect (such as the Spy grenade in Team Fortress)

 

etc.

[Shadowstrider]

As far as I'm concerned, the combat engine of KotOR is fine. The problem was not the mechanics of the fights. The problem, for me, with KotOR's combat was that the fights were dull and there was no real diversity.

 

Stab, stab, stab, die.

Stab, stab, stab, die.

Stab, stab, stab, die.

Level up.

Stab, stab, stab, die.

Stab, stab, stab, die.

Stab, stab, stab, die.

Level up.

 

If the combat had been more diverse, the multiple fighting styles mattered, it had been more challenging, etc... it'd have been much more fun. I liked how the combat handled, just not the actual fighting.

[Cantousent]

I

[Dhruin]

As far as I'm concerned, the combat engine of KotOR is fine.  The problem was not the mechanics of the fights.  The problem, for me, with KotOR's combat was that the fights were dull and there was no real diversity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And you don't think that's caused by the "mechanics"?

[Shadowstrider]

As far as I'm concerned, the combat engine of KotOR is fine.  The problem was not the mechanics of the fights.  The problem, for me, with KotOR's combat was that the fights were dull and there was no real diversity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And you don't think that's caused by the "mechanics"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No.

 

Mechanics has nothing to do with simple enemy design.

[mr insomniac]

Nah.  My NPCs ran around and did stupid stuff too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, like running after turrets!

[Volourn]

"but both pale beside Morte."

 

Eh? Morte was barely anything more than a one note joke cracker who slobbered over females. They tried to give it some depth but ultimately fell flat for me. He's a ok npc; but not amongst my best. Neither are Atton or Carth. They're also what i'd consider 'average'.

 

Ravel, and Dak'kon on the other hand were awesome. :cool:

Edited February 1, 2006 by Volourn

[mr insomniac]

"but both pale beside Morte."

 

Eh? Morte was barely anything more than a one note joke cracker who slobbered over females. They tried to give it some depth but ultimately fell flat for me. He's a ok npc; but not amongst my best. Neither are Atton or Carth. They're also what i'd consider 'average'.

 

Ravel, and Dak'kon on the other hand were awesome. :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just curious but you never really got into that whole Pillar of Skulls/Guilt thing that Morte carried around?