Obsidian's Feargus Urquhart at RPG Codex forum

[Tigranes]

Gromnir, I think I did recognise all your 'similarity' examples. My point was that they weren't, in fact, similar. (e.g. KOTOR dialogue is not similar to PST even if it was longer.)

 

Anyway, I felt that Morte became fairly interesting once you find out about the Fortress of Regrets stuff.

[Gromnir]

Gromnir, I think I did recognise all your 'similarity' examples. My point was that they weren't, in fact, similar. (e.g. KOTOR dialogue is not similar to PST even if it was longer.)

 

Anyway, I felt that Morte became fairly interesting once you find out about the Fortress of Regrets stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

"as to other aspects, you keep ignoring all the stuff that we noted as being same/similar... which is fine. is your prerogative to say "no it isn't" every time we says "yes it is." makes debate kinda pointless though."

 

again, your approach leaves us at a bit of an impasse. we can note similarities in plots and characters and themes and yeah, even in approach to dialogues, but if you simply disagree then there just ain't anywhere to be going with a debate.

 

*shrug*

 

some hardcore fans of ps:t see qualities in it that other folks do not... and Gromnir just cannot fight that.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[kirottu]

You aren

Edited February 1, 2006 by kirottu

[Tigranes]

well, i feel like i'm repeating myself, but here's a go at being more constructive then:

 

You claimed that KOTOR and PS:T had very similar dialogue, PS:T's being more long-winded (which is true). I say that sure, there are some similarities, because they belong to the same subgenre of RPGs, but I thought they were different enough to avoid such a claim as yours because:

 

-> PS:T's dialogue had at many points very diverging dialogue choices, either for quest outcomes / stat alterations or simply for roleplaying (e.g. Mourns-For-Trees). I felt KOTOR's was much more superficial (e.g. +200 credits) and much less frequent. Sure, you could say "KOTOR just had less", but then we could say the same for BG, IWD, and many other RPGs in the subgenre.

 

-> PS:T's dialogue was unique for the fact that it read more like a script, or a dungeon master's ramblings, than dialogue we are used to - that is, it often included observations and descriptions of the situation. (e.g. "You approach a blue room with banana-patterend wallpapers.) In KOTOR, like most other RPGs, this was absent - good for some, bad for some.

 

-> PS:T used dialogue as a means to solve disputes, resolve quests, etc, etc - and yes, that happens with every damn RPG out there. But it happened to a very great extent (so much that people who ignore dialogue options would miss out on a huge proportion of the story). I think the degree to this happened in PS:T, as opposed to KOTOR, is so great that to call it 'similar except more' is like saying UT had similar combat as Morrowind, just more.

 

Hm. Also, we shold probably clear up if we are talking about KOTOR1, or 2, or both. Since you've tacked on a "2" in there occasionally, Ive just been talking about the series as a whole.

 

some hardcore fans of ps:t see qualities in it that other folks do not... and Gromnir just cannot fight that.

 

True, although my position is not that PS:T > KOTOR, but that they are not similar. The former I reserve as my personal opinion.

[Nartwak]

That's superficial.

[Gromnir]

one wonders if tig notices how much he/she had to qualify in his/her last post. oh sure, ps:t is so obviously unique compared to kotor... but when you start actually trying to explain its uniqueness you notice that it ain't. essentially it gots MORE of certain crpg aspects that tig likes. great.

 

unfortunately, Gromnir already noted that what kotor does is give those things that tig likes in ps:t and gives LESS... and made more money. kotor has shorter dialogues and less dialogues, and it intersperses dialogues with more combat more often. it keeps the themes and characters and the quality of dialogues, but it gives less... on purpose... which is Gromnir's whole freaking point.

 

typical complaints re ps:t:

 

too much dialogue.

 

too grim.

 

reads like a book.

 

sucky combat.

 

where are the elves?

 

i hate tno, why can't i play a character i created?

 

etc.

 

so yeah, ps:t and kotor is similar

[Cantousent]

am still confused as to how so many folks could likes lame kotor combat and hate lame ps:t combat.  kotor gots lightsabres and proportionally more lame combat than ps:t.  is that all it takes?  what a horrible lesson to be learning from the relative developments of ps:t and kotor.  more combats and some kewlness is what folks will be satisfied by?  not need to waste effort on trying for tactical sophistication?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The battles weren't particularly tough in either one, but KotOR/KotOR 2 had easier battles. To be honest, I was perfectly happy with easier battles since the fighting wasn't my favorite part of the game.

 

Also, I don't see why it's so far fetched to believe Bioware tried to recapture some of PS:T when they made KotOR. It makes perfect sense that Obsidian did the same. If I can recall, Bioware put out some surveys a little while after NWN2 hit the shelves. There was just the tiniest bit of mayhem and ire in some quarters and, to Bioware's credit, the company wanted to address some of the issues that caused complaint. One of the options explicitly stated on more than one of the surveys (or maybe more than once on one survey, I can't recall) cited Planescape: Torment. Think about that. Not only did they have PS:T in mind, but at least one of the questions revolved around the nature of NPCs.

 

Was it some mistake that Bioware was thinking about PS:T before they developed KotOR? Maybe the guy creating the survey had to come up with a quick question and pulled PS:T out of thin air. I prefer PS:T also, Tigranes, but not only are the two games similar, but the folks at Bioware had it in their heads to make the games similar on purpose and well before they got hot and heavy into the development.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Eldar

[Cantousent]

Ah, please forgive me and thanks for the heads up, Hades. I meant KotOR.

 

Dammit, I meant KotOR. I'm really on a roll this morning.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Eldar

[Diogo Ribeiro]

am still confused as to how so many folks could likes lame kotor combat and hate lame ps:t combat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do not underestimate the attention span-destroying power of shiny lightsaber effects.

[Volourn]

"Just curious but you never really got into that whole Pillar of Skulls/Guilt thing that Morte carried around? "

 

I liked it. Just not as much as others.

[Gabrielle]

Must be the game players fault. I never had any problems there. My npcs did what they were told. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay, little missy. How do I do this in the Starforge? Since you are such the guru of KotOR combat you should have no problem answering this that it works 100% of the time.

 

How do I get my NPCs, using the default AI since there is no way to disable the combat AI within the game, to stay at one specific location and defend that specific location without moving? If enemies fire at range I want them to stay put and go full defensive and only attack if an enemy moves in a melee. If the enemy moves from melee the NPC DOES NOT PURSUE. Oh, my NPCs are using melee weapons.

 

So, how do I do that within the KotOR game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Give them ranged weapons use your character as the melee fighter.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Gabrielle

[alanschu]

What exactly is he doing?

[Gabrielle]

No.  My main character is doing something else and not involved in the fight.  You lose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You used the word lose and me (you) in the same sentence. I'm afraid that is a flawed statement. And pray tell what is your main character doing while everyone else is fighting?

[Blank]

No.  My main character is doing something else and not involved in the fight.  You lose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You used the word lose and me (you) in the same sentence. I'm afraid that is a flawed statement. And pray tell what is your main character doing while everyone else is fighting?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's taking a dump on Hades' sense of humour :ph34r:

[mkreku]

He's slowly walking away from a werewolf?

[alanschu]

*ding* teh winnar!

 

His PC probably wasn't doing anything because he was fumbling with the controls.

[Gabrielle]

Hades was looking for the pause button.

[Gabrielle]

How ungrateful can you be. While you are playing video games on the Starforge your party is there protecting you and all you have to do is whine like Carth?

[alanschu]

Can you even use the computer while your party is in combat?

 

 

Fallout didn't have Standing Guard either ^_^

[Gabrielle]

No, they aren't protecting me.  If they were protecting me they were stay put and guard.  What the AI is doing is having them run off and getting themselves killed and letting the enemy through.

 

Since you are not proposing a solution this conversation is over.  You lose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh cry me a river Carth. Don't let the big bad werewolf scare you.

[alanschu]

What does Fallout have yto do with anything? If you are expecting an old game like Fallout to have the options and abilities of a modern game then you are pretty screwed in the head.

 

I just enjoy highlighting your inconsistencies.

 

 

For the record, what CRPGs do have a "standing guard" order (that works the way you want it to?).

[Gorth]

Can you even use the computer while your party is in combat?

 

 

Fallout didn't have Standing Guard either  ^_^

Not exactly, but it definitely did have some more interesting AI options for party members. Like distance to you, weapon preference, target priorities, behaviour etc.

[alanschu]

Weapon Preference was usually something with burst fire, target priorities were usually a target in my general direction, and the weapon mode was full freaking auto

[Gabrielle]

What does Fallout have yto do with anything?  If you are expecting an old game like Fallout to have the options and abilities of a modern game then you are pretty screwed in the head.

 

But isn't it cute to see lil' Gabby having a temper tantrum when she is proven wrong.  Its so cute.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chnging the subject? We weren't discussing Fallout so I don't know where that came from.

 

If I was having a tantrum you would know it.

[SteveThaiBinh]

The Star Forge was a bit annoying, yes. It's good to have a challenge, but not an artificial challenge that's been thrown up by poor AI. However, once you accept that you're going to progress at your NPCs' speed and just go with the flow, it gets better.

For the record, what CRPGs do have a "standing guard" order (that works the way you want it to?).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NWN's standing guard order works for a whole eight seconds or so.