Oblivion: PC Gamer Praises in Preview

[Diogo Ribeiro]

When I click on Pork Soda in Morrowind, in my head I speak a sentence to the NPC. To me (and i'm not the only one), less description allows for more roleplay because I can make up any sentence that I want. I choose, in my head how my character will react.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This has no meaningful application in computer roleplaying games because the game can't react to what we're imagining. I could choose to imagine that my character would side with Dagoth Ur in the final stage of the game but that would still not make a difference because no matter how hard I'd imagine this, it wouldn't matter to the game. It can only work with what it was made to work with, in this case predetermined choices and consequences, not imaginary ones. Imagination can only be fully used in roleplaying if the medium actually works with imagination, as is the case with something like pen and paper.

[astr0creep]

When I click on Pork Soda in Morrowind, in my head I speak a sentence to the NPC. To me (and i'm not the only one), less description allows for more roleplay because I can make up any sentence that I want. I choose, in my head how my character will react.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This has no meaningful application in computer roleplaying games because the game can't react to what we're imagining. I could choose to imagine that my character would side with Dagoth Ur in the final stage of the game but that would still not make a difference because no matter how hard I'd imagine this, it wouldn't matter to the game. It can only work with what it was made to work with, in this case predetermined choices and consequences, not imaginary ones. Imagination can only be fully used in roleplaying if the medium actually works with imagination, as is the case with something like pen and paper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't mean imagining entire plot points. Only when faced with conversation methods like in Morrowind. The point is that if you keep an open mind about how the game is supposed be played, it is much easier to appreciate it. This goes with everything else in life, not just games.

The point is to have fun while wasting time. Nitpicking about every little thing that bothers us is just useless stress.

 

Lighten up people.

[Llyranor]

Despite Morrowind's flaws, its promotion of education was optimal. Not many games can claim that their NPCs are walking encyclopedias.

 

Long live Bethesda! In this day and age, it's time more companies realize how important education is.

[Gromnir]

"Again, it depends how you roleplay. "

 

no it doesn't... not if we is talking 'bout quality of writing.

 

 

[Llyranor]

In a sense, I'm pretty happy with Bioware's recent approach with Dragon Age. Hiring full-time writers that work WITH designers (instead of designers also doing the writing) is a good step for the quality (and quantity in the right places) of writing in the industry.

[astr0creep]

"Again, it depends how you roleplay. "

 

no it doesn't... not if we is talking 'bout quality of writing. 

 

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I didn't mean imagining entire plot points. Only when faced with conversation methods like in Morrowind.

 

The Dagoth Ur example was only meant to illustrate that imagination doesn't succeed in conveying a sense of roleplaying if the medium doesn't support it. I'm sure that selecting a dialogue option and mentally acting out how a character would say something might be seen as a worthwhile and fun option for some, but doing so simply has no bearing on the fact that gamewise characters are only asking for a topic without any sense of credible characterization that dialogue choices often provide. To a degree this is the problem with Morrowind't roleplaying: the inability to convey a sense of character trough dialogue.

 

Lighten up people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

?I don't think anybody is need to lighten up... People are just going about what they think about the game, not much else than that.

[Volourn]

"To me (and i'm not the only one), less description allows for more roleplay because I can make up any sentence that I want. I choose, in my head how my character will react."

 

R9ole-playing is menaingless if the npcs don't react at all to your imaginative role-playing.

 

If that's the case, you might as well just make believe in your head and not bother with computer games (or pnp for that matter).

 

Role-playing without feeback is nothing more than a day dream.

 

Role-play your character's anger it won't matter because Mr. Bob simply won't react.

 

It's all about action and reaction. (and, no, not the combat kind of 'action').

[CoM_Solaufein]

I look forward to Oblivion. I'm sure it will be a great game after seeing some screen shots and some of the hype.

[Kasoroth]

"To me (and i'm not the only one), less description allows for more roleplay because I can make up any sentence that I want. I choose, in my head how my character will react."

 

R9ole-playing is menaingless if the npcs don't react at all to your imaginative role-playing.

 

If that's the case, you might as well just make believe in your head and not bother with computer games (or pnp for that matter).

 

Role-playing without feeback is nothing more than a day dream.

 

Role-play your character's anger it won't matter because Mr. Bob simply won't react.

 

It's all about action and reaction. (and, no, not the combat kind of 'action').

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with you that it's very disappointing to have no feedback to roleplaying. This was one reason that I disliked the completely player created parties in the IWD series compared to the NPCs of the BG series and especially Ps:T. The character interaction within the party made a huge difference in my enjoyment of the games. Sure, you could type out a detailed character Biography in the IWD series, and you could imagine that the party members talk to each other, but in the end it seemed really strange that there was never any verbal interaction between them within the game.

 

This is also a big problem with keyword based dialogue systems including Morrowind's (I liked Morrowind but it fell well short of greatness) and Ultima VII's (which was a great game despite the keyword based dialogue). Ultima Underworld was one of the earliest games I can remember playing that really had full sentence multiple choice dialogue, and I've been a fan of that style ever since.

 

It seems that there is an interface in Oblivion to select your tone in conversation (joking, threatening, etc) From the demos and info that I've seen, it's not entirely clear to me whether selecting the tone is a separate action that you take to influence the NPC's attitude (like flattery and bribes in Morrowind) or whether it is more of a "mode" that represents how you approach each topic, and is checked every time you pick any topic (until you change to a different "mode" anyway).

 

This seems like it might be a reasonable mechanism to let players express their roleplaying in a keyword based system in a way that the game can react to, even if the actual roleplaying is only in their mind. If it's implemented well, it could be a significant improvement over previous keyword based systems, but I still don't like it as much as a sentence based system.

 

With a sentence based system you know exactly what your character is saying to the NPC, and you can understand (or be bewildered by) the NPC's response in relation to that. If you ask about keyword "salted pork" in a friendly way and the NPC gets really mad, it leaves you wondering what you said that annoyed them so much, when in reality it might just have been a horribly failed "speechcraft" skill roll, you never really know if it's an intended quirk of the NPC's personality, or just a quirk of the game's conversation system.

 

-Kasoroth

[Llyranor]

Watch the E3 demo. It's a different 'mode'.

[Wynne]

It kinda sucks that Oblivion was delayed, but as they say in the demos, the entire game was technically done--technically. It's that they weren't satisfied with the polish.

 

"We decided that we wanted to get it done right, that we still had stuff to do optimization-wise; you know, in the last week we've reduced load times by like 400%, so there's lots of speed and performance things. The content is done, the game is done, you can play and do everything. For us now, it's the level of polish."

 

I mean, think of how many companies would just shove it out the door for the Xbox 360 launch, done or not. I think Bethesda learns from each of their efforts, and they want Oblivion to shine--to sell it when it's done rather than just make profits as soon as possible. This is one of the benefits of becoming an increasingly large company; you can afford to wait and polish more. Difficult to the extreme for such a huge game, but clearly, they want to.

 

What I'm looking forward to...

 

--Dungeons. The game has "over 200 dungeons, all hand-crafted." From what I saw in the demo, Oblivion is a marked improvement in terms of environment personality. The sheer amount of useable traps looks very exciting.

 

--Combat. Now your player skill in blocking will actually matter--you choose when to block, and your block skill determines how much damage the block absorbs and how much the block saps your stamina. A perfect balance of action and RPG elements, where both matter.

 

--Magic. Playing a pure mage is a far more viable option. Your mana regenerates this time around at a rate which purportedly makes it as useful as a sword for a fighter or thief.

 

--Stealth. Emil Pagliarulo has been hired and listened to. The dimension of actually playing a thief has apparently been added. (I didn't feel thievery was satisfying in Morrowind; I used shadow-related mods.) You can use stealth and cleverness to defeat your enemies, and shadows actually seem to matter this time. Demo #4 shows that you can shoot an arrow into a log, causing the force to roll it downhill and crush a small foe. You can also roll a ball into a tripwire, triggering spiked battering rams to swing from the ceiling into enemies not aware of your presence.

 

--Dialogue. Yes, there is a basic Wikipedia format to some of this--but there are some specific lines to say which you can gain in the course of dialogue as well. Do I think it will be KOTOR-level dialogue? Emphatically not, but it still looks improved from the last game, and--like in many movies--the acting adds a whole new dimension to the dialogue, so even if the writing isn't Mervyn Peake, it already comes across better. And there's more than one writer assigned to the game (obviously, due to the vast amount of NPCs), so while Estelle Renoit's dialogue is rather blah, what's given to Patrick Stewart is decidedly better.

 

--Mood Ring. Har. Couldn't resist that descriptor. Sort of like Morrowind's mood affectation features, but a little deeper. I like it because it's slightly more intuitive, more personal--besides the Demand/Bribe options, you have the Mood Ring--Boast, Bully, Joke, Admire. And their face will change as you pass the cursor over the different sides of the circle. Why do I like this? Because it's so real life--you trade expressions with others to know what to say. You can glare at someone slightly and see whether they look nervous or unmoved to know whether you can press them that way. You can check them out and see whether they are stiff or flattered in response. (An answering frigid glare of death from somebody in real life often stops a come-on line dead in its tracks, doesn't it?) You can get that little sparkle in your eye as you think of something funny you heard, and see the answering interest. In Demo #5, this is just what happens--admiration and boasts bring no interest, but a twinkle in your eye can make the subject's face light up just a bit.

 

--Fast Travel Map. Thank heaven for THAT! Ugh, whoever thought removing fast travel in Morrowind was a great idea must have been on some serious shrooms, or had a lotus enema or something. I don't care if it's unrealistic, it's not FUN. What is fun is, when in a movie, you cut through all the boring parts where people go to the bathroom or lie around reading to the part where something is actually happening. Same principle applies to a video game--you need fast travel. And they learned that lesson for Oblivion. *shakes her head* I can't believe they ever thought otherwise. Honestly.

 

Breakdown:

Not all RPGs are the same. Players expect different things from the genre. Anything in which the game is about you playing a role you choose tends to be classified as an RPG. Diablo only fits this by the barest of definitions, if at all--I personally would snort at the idea that it is one, since you can't even make basic quest choices, just whether you swing a sword or fling fireballs... RPG, my porcelain posterior. It's really more an action game. Dungeon Siege II is a mite closer. Baldur's Gate 2 definitely fits the RPG definition, since you can choose your lines and class and gender and all, including good or evil. Same with KOTOR, of course. Planescape: Torment was a great game, but the role was strictly male and kinda undeadish, so it wasn't the broadest of RPGs. System Shock 2 was very action-oriented, but still technically an RPG in vague terms, since you did get to build your character. The point with any RPG, or any game, is to find out what it offers and why you would or wouldn't like it before you buy the game.

 

So here's the point of Oblivion--and if this doesn't appeal, one need not feel obligated to buy it... (nor to stamp feet and childishly proclaim, over and over, for all to hear "I will not buy it because it is not my type of game!") Oblivion intends to create a realistic fantasy world in which you can choose your own path in solving quests. You can be a cutthroat, you can be a thief, you can be an arena gladiator, you can be a mage, you can worship a god, you can worship no gods, and you can choose your quests, your guild, your place in the world. You can play the hero, the villain, or the disinterested pragmatist, or any combination of the above--whatever you like. It's more about the dynamic experience than anything else. You can make moral choices, but it won't be done through "I would never betray my friends, Kreia" party member dialogue--it will be done through whether you choose to kill your opponent when he yields, or spare him; through whether you build up a quest/action reputation with the people of Cyrodiil for helping others or for getting caught stealing and ruthlessly slaughtering innocents. You can also be a shady character without anyone ever knowing it, or even a vampire. So, yes, it does rely more on your concepts, inner frameworks, and your imagination than recorded dialogue choices. Which is better? It's a matter of opinion, and personally, I like both ways. I like the more linear, tightly woven two-pronged storyline of the KOTOR games, and I like the loose, easy freedom of the ES games. I like to experience a well-written deep story with only a few possibilities, and I like to experience a huge defined world where I can do anything and everything I want. It's just different, and we can all buy whatever the hell we personally find appealing.

 

To those of you who don't like Bethesda and don't like Morrowind, you are entitled to your opinion and the expression of it. Concerns and skepticism are completely valid and I agree with some. But we have not played Oblivion and thus do not know whether it will be a decent effort or not, so any heavy-handed dismissals really come across as... lame. To those who have already condemned Oblivion to--well, oblivion, and yes you deserved that horrible pun--don't you have anything better to do than complain about a game not even released yet that you aren't interested in regardless? Like, go talk elsewhere about a game you ARE looking forward to? Because if you don't have anything better to do, and all you're interested in is pointless negativity and making transparent attempts to spoil others' fun, that's really very sad.

 

Well, there's my two cents. On to other topics.

[Musopticon?]

I feel for your keyboard Wynne, Then again, after those "rather" lengthy Silent Hill reviews in TTLG, I bet you've bought a new one.

 

Anyway.

[mkreku]

Good post, and I agree with 99% of it (I feel I will like Oblivion, almost no matter what), but who the hell is Wynne?

[Slowtrain]

"make folks care.  try to make folks care with pork soda.  we dare you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Its a game, Mr Khan. I don't want to care, I want to play. Not that they have to be mutually exclusive to be sure, but given limited time to spend on implementing all of a game's features, I'll take gameplay over characters anyday. Give me some plastic cut outs, but just let me have fun with them.

 

If I want to care about some characters, either fictional or non-fictional,I'll read a book.

[Gromnir]

"Oblivion intends to create a realistic fantasy world"

 

oxymoronic, no?

 

oblivion is gonna have to pass the larry, curly and moe test before Gromnir purchases... gonna need for three of our friends to be buying and recommending 'fore we even consider purchase, 'cause as of right now it still seems like the folks at bethesda just don't understand how important character development is in a crpg. all those nifty features is just so much fancy make-up on the oblivion sow w/o a dedication and understanding of morrowind's fatal flaw: no heart. it were so damned difficult to care 'bout what were happening in morrowind 'cause the character's dialogues were as flat as their faces. after morrowind we asked for heart, and instead we is getting pork soda?

 

unsolicited advice: suppress your urge to buy oblivion until your own larry, curly and moe is giving positive feedback.

 

 

[Gromnir]

"make folks care.  try to make folks care with pork soda.  we dare you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Its a game, Mr Khan. I don't want to care, I want to play. Not that they have to be mutually exclusive to be sure, but given limited time to spend on implementing all of a game's features, I'll take gameplay over characters anyday. Give me some plastic cut outs, but just let me have fun with them.

 

If I want to care about some characters, either fictional or non-fictional,I'll read a book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

perfectly understandable. pong were a great example of a game with addictive gameplay and 0 story. you not need story to play game.

 

*shrug*

 

unfortunately, pong and madden football and so many other games gets awful dull awful fast if you is simply playing v. the computer. play larry, curly or moe and maybe you adds the element o' competition, but otherwise the experience of pitting yourself v. the computer gets old fast... which is why so many adventure and crpg games throw in story elements... 'specially since these games is made so that 12 yr olds can beat 'em w/o too much difficulty. is not like you is really being challenged in any way as far as gameplay goes.

 

nevertheless, if you is content simply to play game to watch your character acquire more points in strength or to be getting more valuable 10075, then more power to you. is a perfectly acceptable approach and gaming developers would love it if everybody were just like you.

 

oh, and books ain't really the same is they... 'cause you is simply an observer when you is reading a book. crpgs is making you an active participant in the story... so the book option ain't really analogous... not at all.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

[oh, and books ain't really the same is they... 'cause you is simply an observer when you is reading a book.  crpgs is making you an active participant in the story... so the book option ain't really analogous... not at all.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly so. I never understand why people talk about stories in games. What do games do that are unique to games? Well, they games let YOU play, interact, bend things, break things, whack things with a stick. You can get story anywhere, good story, bad story, indifferent story whatever. But you can only get gameplay from games. Why make a game that is all story/text/reading? Makes absolutely no sense. WHen I want story I read a book, or watch a movie, some sort of ppassive linear narrative experience. When I want to do something that allows me to um do something, I play a game.

 

I don't ever want my games to become books. And I don't ever want my books to become games.

[Gromnir]

obviously Gromnir communicated something badly. need not be (and rarely is,) simply a matter of gameplay v. story... one or the other.

 

oh well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

obviously Gromnir communicated something badly.  need not be (and rarely is,) simply a matter of gameplay v. story... one or the other.

 

oh well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, only in the sense that MW has a ton of gameplay but characters and story aren't so great. SO if you are into gameplay I think you will find MW a very rewarding and involving game. If you are into story and vivd characters you probably won't.

 

Dooesn't make one better than the other, but the oppostion is pretty clear even from th emajority of posts in this thread.

[Llyranor]

When I want actual gameplay, I stay away from RPGs.

[Weiser_Cain]

[out of left field]I still say its crap[/out of left field]

[alanschu]

obviously Gromnir communicated something badly.  need not be (and rarely is,) simply a matter of gameplay v. story... one or the other.

 

oh well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, only in the sense that MW has a ton of gameplay but characters and story aren't so great. SO if you are into gameplay I think you will find MW a very rewarding and involving game. If you are into story and vivd characters you probably won't.

 

Dooesn't make one better than the other, but the oppostion is pretty clear even from th emajority of posts in this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Err, I don't know if Morrowind is really all that involving gameplay wise either. It seems to be limited to exploring, attacking (through normal weapons or magic), and talking to NPCs.

 

 

I like stories because they complement good gameplay so well. When your decisions as a character affect interesting people, it adds so much to the gameplay because it makes you put so much thought into your gameplay decisions.

 

Stories aren't just reserved for books, and they've been a part of computer games (especially RPG games) for over two decades.

[Jack the Ripper]

I loved everything about Morrowind except the graphics. I still pick up the game and play from time to time. There are also a lot of fantastic fan made mods that make the experience even deeper than it already is. Oblivion will be a beautiful game with a better story, better graphics, an uber realistic physics system, far better AI, a stealth system designed by the man behind the Thief games, and much friendlier controls. Their voice cast includes names like Sean Bean and Patrick Stewart, and frankly, just this screenshot alone sold me the game. The ability to go anywhere and do anything I want in sixteen square miles of untamed wilderness is quite appealing to me.

[Slowtrain]

Err, I don't know if Morrowind is really all that involving gameplay wise either.  It seems to be limited to exploring, attacking (through normal weapons or magic), and talking to NPCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Custom spell system, Custom weapon system, custom alchemy system, widely varied skill tree with no class restrcitions, huge number of things to find, puzzles to solve, places to see, flying, swimming, the list goes on. There's far more gameplay in MW than in most games. And its pretty open-ended to as to what you do with it all

 

 

 

I like stories because they complement good gameplay so well.  When your decisions as a character affect interesting people, it adds so much to the gameplay because it makes you put so much thought into your gameplay decisions

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Fair enough. I usually forget about whatever story I'm supposed to be paying attention to pretty quickly. Regardless of genre. In Far Cry for example, not that FPS are great examples of story-games, I was always thinking about how to get from one point to the next without being killed while gawking at the scenery along the way. Every once in a while this guy named Harlan would buzz in on my walkie talkie and the only thing I ever paid attention to on that was where the next objective way point would pop up. Then I would head that way and shoot anything that moved.

 

 

Stories aren't just reserved for books, and they've been a part of computer games (especially RPG games) for over two decades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Stories have been part of human existence since our ancestors made cave paintings on the walls of their condos. That wasn't really my point though.