KOTOR III after KOTOR II!

[metadigital]

Star Wars isn't LOTR's.  And why a third hero, why ANOTHER guy who is lost to the force somehow, and is the last of the Jedi. Or maybe a nobody somehow gets trained by..no Jedi... and says, "I'm the hero now, this is my war."

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Don't infantilise the argument.

 

There is no imperative -- narrative or plot -- to keeping Revan as the PC. Yes, it can be done. But, equally, a new PC can be used.

 

That was my point, and I even helped you to understand with an example.

 

Now do you see?

[Darth_Schmarth]

If LA gives them enough time.

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Ouch...

[Laozi]

If the writers can't come up with a good story without forcing the player to take the role of Revan/Exile, then there shouldn't be a KotOR III.

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Too true. And just so everyone knows Revan won't be i K3 if its made, for many of the same reasons he wasn't in K2, which the more I play is a thoroughly crappy game, and that is only half LucasArts' fault

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Now I understand that the idea of Revan was created by the developers over at Bioware and then continued by OE. However just because his backstory was created by developers doesn't mean his actions are continued to be motivated by them. Everyone has his or her idea of Revan and played him in a particular way within the limits of the game. The player was the one who chose Revan's actions according to what the player deemed his/her particualar Revan would do in a particular situation. We have to understand that the pre-amnesia Revan is not the same Revan the player was controlling. This is a new Revan. He/She is the player's Revan. His/Her main plans might remain the same but how he reaches those goals and the motivations behind the plans are still totally up to the player. K1 Revan is the player's character, fused with both his past history and the person Revan has become now. How Revan reacts and comes to terms with his history is up to the player to decide. It will depend on how each player illustrates Revan in their mind and how the completed picture of Revan reacts to the events of the game. Now, how does this make Revan 'not your character'?

 

As for Revan being level 20, like I said earlier, what's wrong with just arbitrarily knocking his level back to 15 and then leveling him to 30 throughout the course of the game? Revan would still start powerful and increase in power as he truly unlocks his true potential. Heck I wouldn't mind Revan having gaining special Force powers as some powerful memories come back to him. Kind of like mix of Torment's memories and ToB's Bhaal tests in the pocket plane. I don't think this would make the game too easy either. It would be up to the devs to come up with something more than just throwing enemies at you. Have the enemies hide behind walls, make them act more intelligently using the terrain to their advantage. Have them move around in highly efficient squads. Make blaster and grenade type weapons more effective and deadly. Throw in a few vehicle mounted enemies that any high level character would have trouble with. Make the main antagonists powerful Sith Lords. Redesign force powers so even the high level abilities have some sort of weakness. Going over level 20 is crazy with d20 rules? Just base the bare bones of the rules on d20 and revamp the system for higher levels.

 

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Actually it does, unless you completely suck as a roleplayer. Revan as the saviour of the galaxy (LS) or Revan as the bouncing yo-yo who cant make up his mind.

Revan now has a history that has nothing at all to do with any player, they now have their memories back , which means you no longer have the blank slate effect that using the amnesia shtick gives you.

 

It's no longer a case of being tricked into playing the character but rather the designers saying this is the character you will be playing. If your going to go the route of forcing people to play pregen characters with completely defined histories, you may as well go the whole way and do it JRPG style which give significantly better stories as they dont have to deal with various outcomes.

 

Onto point two.

 

You cant just knock someones level back without a reason. Starting something at high level ,especially when the game is not on the same system (seems very likely) is even more likely to alienate new people.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Too true. And just so everyone knows Revan won't be i K3 if its made, for many of the same reasons he wasn't in K2, which the more I play is a thoroughly crappy game, and that is only half LucasArts' fault

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Still playing it though...

[Azure79]

Actually it does, unless you completely suck as a roleplayer. Revan as the saviour of the galaxy (LS) or Revan as the bouncing yo-yo who cant make up his mind.

Revan now has a history that has nothing at all to do with any player, they now have their memories back , which means you no longer have the blank slate effect that using the amnesia shtick gives you.

 

It's no longer a case of being tricked into playing the character but rather the designers saying this is the character you will be playing. If your going to go the route of forcing people to play pregen characters with completely defined histories, you may as well go the whole way and do it JRPG style which give significantly better stories as they dont have to deal with various outcomes.

 

Onto point two.

 

You cant just knock someones level back without a reason. Starting something at high level ,especially when the game is not on the same system (seems very likely) is even more likely to alienate new people.

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I don't think Revan regaining parts of his memory is a viable reason for dismissing him as a potential PC. His past actions and history is set but the motivations behind them are not. These are up to the player to decide according to how they played post-amnesia Revan. How Revan comes to terms with his history, whether he regrets it or revels in the destruction he caused or is even indifferent to the entire thing, is still ultimately up to the player(if given the chance to play him of course). I think if K3 were to have these elements it would be a great chance to roleplay as the Revan you created in your mind. You could compare Revan to the Nameless One. NO's history is set too. He also has massive amnesia and regains parts of his memory as the game progresses. There were powerful moments in the game you come to the realize the havok and pain NO caused and you have the choice to regret those actions or revel in them. The player essentially becomes the NO, determining his actions according to what the player deems his or her particular NO would do. I believe the same also applies to Revan. I don't see how a game about Revan confronting his past and choosing what path to take, once again according to the player, is any less of a roleplaying game with a new blank-slate PC as the main character.

 

The devs give you Revan to play true, but as soon as the intro ends and you take control of Revan, he is longer controlled by the devs but by the player. All his actions and motivations are supplied by the player within the limits of the game. I believe this makes Revan your character.

 

I don't know. Maybe we have just have different ideas about roleplaying.

 

I do see your point about the level issue though, probably the main obstacle for Revan to return as PC Though I wouldn't mind having some characters start at a lower level than I left them. Its just not that big a deal to me since I think any game system is arbitrary and if some things have be changed to make a better game so be it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I don't think Revan regaining parts of his memory is a viable reason for dismissing him as a potential PC. His past actions and history is set but the motivations behind them are not. These are up to the player to decide according to how they played post-amnesia Revan. How Revan comes to terms with his history, whether he regrets it or revels in the destruction he caused or is even indifferent to the entire thing, is still ultimately up to the player(if given the chance to play him of course). I think if K3 were to have these elements it would be a great chance to roleplay as the Revan you created in your mind. You could compare Revan to the Nameless One. NO's history is set too. He also has massive amnesia and regains parts of his memory as the game progresses. There were powerful moments in the game you come to the realize the havok and pain NO caused and you have the choice to regret those actions or revel in them. The player essentially becomes the NO, determining his actions according to what the player deems his or her particular NO would do. I believe the same also applies to Revan. I don't see how a game about Revan confronting his past and choosing what path to take, once again according to the player, is any less of a roleplaying game with a new blank-slate PC as the main character.

 

The devs give you Revan to play true, but as soon as the intro ends and you take control of Revan, he is longer controlled by the devs but by the player. All his actions and motivations are supplied by the player within the limits of the game. I believe this makes Revan your character.

 

I don't know. Maybe we have just have different ideas about roleplaying.

 

I do see your point about the level issue though, probably the main obstacle for Revan to return as PC Though I wouldn't mind having some characters start at a lower level than I left them. Its just not that big a deal to me since I think any game system is arbitrary and if some things have be changed to make a better game so be it.

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I do. Revan has been doing stuff that you are now completely unaware of he now knows more than the player does. Do you think it's an accident that they erase characters memories to make them playable?

 

In other wordds while Revan knows whats going on the player is completely clueless. You will meet NPCs you dont "know" but Revan will already know them.What the amnesia shtik does is to put the player and character on equal footing.

 

Because thats the player simply choosing how they want him to turn out. Thats not roleplaying.

[dufflover]

I'm starting think that LucasArts only decided to make a trilogy after the success of K1. Now that in itself is not bad, but I reckon they botched it when it came to what to base the trilogy on.

 

Also, I'd probably regret this if it happened later, but just looking at all the ideas and restrictions on the story, I would want a K3, where Revan's story (whatever that may be) is clearly complete - now it can be him dying, or just "retiring" back to normal space ( yay! Bastila... or Carth). I won't even care that much if they do a Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy else so you can play a balanced character.

Finish with K3 and make the next KotOR completely unrelated.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'm starting think that LucasArts only decided to make a trilogy after the success of K1. Now that in itself is not bad, but I reckon they botched it when it came to what to base the trilogy on.

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Thats quite likely. But thats where your always going to run into problems. Even as far back as BGII , BGII simply took the view that what you did in BG wasnt important and set it's own reality.

 

Sometimes trying to jump through hoops to keep people happy isnt the way to go.

Unless you set the game way into the future, then recuring characters are always going to be a problem, although as long as they are all NPC's you can do what you like with them. It's when you try to take a former PC and use it as an NPC that the big problems start. People really just need to come to terms with the fact that while they may have created Revans false identity (although Bastila's 20 questions would disupute that..) they didnt create Revan and he's as much an NPC as Carth etc. Once he regained his memories, the players input became obsolete.

[Plano Skywalker]

while I do not think it is likely that we will see Revan as the PC in K3 (I personally hope we do not...even though I am intrigued with the character), I think it cannot be stressed enough that Revan NEEDS RESOLUTION in K3.

 

now, this resolution could come cheaply (the Exile tells you about Revan's demise) or come not so cheaply (he plays a significant part of the story and gets alot of cutscreens). but, ultimately, he needs resolution. they really can't punt this time with Revan because, if they do, the KOTOR franchise continues to be about this character (gee, I wonder if he's going to marry Bastila?) and the whole franchise is better off if it is thought of as a time period and not the saga of one man.

 

killing him off (again, in a meaningful way) would allow them to not set the character's gender, alignment, love interests and all the other things that people like to fill in for themselves and, again, it sets up an all-purpose storytelling device (his ghost) for future games.

[dufflover]

Is it just me or has this shifted the whole topic shifted a bit?

 

Bringing it back a bit - it looks like K3 is doomed into a rather complex story situtation. Would it make a difference who develops it?

[Azure79]

I do. Revan has been doing stuff that you are now completely unaware of he now knows more than the player does. Do you think it's an accident that they erase characters memories to make them playable?

 

In other wordds while Revan knows whats going on the player is completely clueless. You will meet NPCs you dont "know" but Revan will already know them.What the amnesia shtik does is to put the player and character on equal footing.

 

Because thats the player simply choosing how they want him to turn out. Thats not roleplaying.

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I agree with you on some points. Obviously having the PC know more than the character will make that character unplayable. I don't have to look further than K2 and the Exile's initial meeting with Atris to see that. She knows who you are and the Exile knows who he/she is but the player knows squat, leading to some confusion on what dialog choices would most befit the character of Exile you wish to play.

 

However I believe this doesn't fully apply to Revan. All the hints and references on Revan in K2 didn't indicate he had totally recovered all his memories. He was troubled by the glimpses and flashbacks he had seen and obviously what he saw caused enough turmoil for him to take action. We know it had something to do with the True Sith and the previous war Revan waged was a part of his overall strategy to repulse them or conquer them. Why did Revan go beyond the outer rim? It probably had a dual purpose of finding out what the true Sith threat is by jogging his memory and then ultimately regaining enough of his memory to either stop or lead the True Sith. The player can be on equal footing throughout the game with Revan. Revan and the player will regain important knowledge at the same time and how Revan reacts to this is up to the player.

 

I also think this represents a fine roleplaying opportunity. The conflict between the Revan of the past and Revan the players have created since K1 would be an interesting game element.

 

I think all roleplaying begins with choice. The game gives you a situation and you choose how your created character would act according to the history and characteristics you have endowed him with. Its not players simply choosing how they want things to turn out or how they want their characters to turn out, although that is part of it too. Surely the players will have some image they want their characters to achieve, whether it be the paragon of virtue, a vile evil power, or just a regular adventurer out for some nice loot. Every choice the player makes will be in context of this image, this outcome they wish for their character. And every choice will be made according how the player has created the character in his mind. I'm sure the same thing goes through players' heads as they play as the Revan they created in K1. How is this not roleplaying? I'd be interested to see how you look at it.

 

PS: Just so you know, I'm not some rabid Revan fanboy...though I might seem that way. I think the chance of playing as Revan in K3 is small, but like Plano, I am greatly intrigued by what his fate will be. I'm sure I'm not alone in this when I say that I don't want the Revan I played through in K1 just thrown away in some minor dialog or petty death sequence. The level of attachment I have for the Revan I played is no less than the any other character I created from scratch. I would like to see Revan play a major role if not the central role.

[Darth Flatus]

The topic has shifted because, the original post was useless and the title of the thread is a false claim.

 

As it invariably does any mention of the yet unmade (or even begun to be made) Kotor 3 brings out the Revan acolytes who collectively harp on about the need for revan to be playable in the game.

 

This in turn brings out people who point out that Revan as a PC in K3 is the stupidest idea in the world and would take away from the essence af an RPG. The game should not be Desperately Seeking Revan.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I also think this represents a fine roleplaying opportunity. The conflict between the Revan of the past and Revan the players have created since K1 would be an interesting game element.

 

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You cant write a game that relies on the player having played KOTOR and created their own Revan though. While it's ok to have little easter eggs for people who have done so, you still need to make the thing as standalone as you can. For example in KOTOR II it really dosnt matter if you played KOTOR. You may have gotten more out of the Revan bits if you had, but he/she still serves the purpose as a background NPC regardless. But since Revan is a case of a bit of revisionist history there isnt much of a connection with the KOTOR version. Rather in KOTORII your seeing Revans true self, albeit through third parties and from a distance.

 

If KOTOR III is going to switch across consoles your going to lose players and gain others new to the series. Given the 360's questionable backwards compatibilty issues its not a given that you will be able to fill in the blanks by playing the previous games, so even more than KOTOR II KOTOR III must be able to stand up by itself.

[Azure79]

The topic has shifted because, the original post was useless and the title of the thread is a false claim.

 

As it invariably does any mention of the yet unmade (or even begun to be made) Kotor 3 brings out the Revan acolytes who collectively harp on about the need for revan to be playable in the game.

 

This in turn brings out people who point out that Revan as a PC in K3 is the stupidest idea in the world and would take away from the essence af an RPG and the gema should not be Desperately Seeking Revan.

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Haha, too true. I'll shut up now :D

[Azure79]

You cant write a game that relies on the player having played KOTOR and created their own Revan though. While it's ok to have little easter eggs for people who have done so, you still need to make the thing as standalone as you can. For example in KOTOR II it really dosnt matter if you played KOTOR. You may have gotten more out of the Revan bits if you had, but he/she still serves the purpose as a background NPC regardless. But since Revan is a case of a bit of revisionist history there isnt much of a connection with the KOTOR version. Rather in KOTORII your seeing Revans true self, albeit through third parties and from a distance.

 

If KOTOR III is going to switch across consoles your going to lose players and gain others new to the series. Given the 360's questionable backwards compatibilty issues its not a given that you will be able to fill in the blanks by playing the previous games, so even more than KOTOR II KOTOR III must be able to stand up by itself.

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Yes, I agree with you on this which is why playing as Revan in K3 is not very likely to happen. A New game on a new platform with new users, obviously you want to make it as accessible as possible.

[Darth_Schmarth]

For example in KOTOR II it really dosnt matter if you played KOTOR. You may have gotten more out of the Revan bits if you had, but he/she still serves the purpose as a background NPC regardless.

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I'm not sure I agree completely. It's obviously hard to say, since I did play KotOR before KotOR2, but I think that to a person who plays KotOR2 without having played the first game, it might seem as there is a whole lot of chatter about this "Revan guy" who they might not even know who it is.

[Laozi]

I'm starting think that LucasArts only decided to make a trilogy after the success of K1. Now that in itself is not bad, but I reckon they botched it when it came to what to base the trilogy on.

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Ya, I'd have to agree with that, and I'd be real interested in what LucasArts said had to be K2 and what couldn't, and if thats drastically changed since the storyline of K2 is so empty.

 

Everything foreshadowed in K2 makes me think that the Kotor franchise is steadily going to crap and the "True Sith" that will likely be the antagonist of the game, will be the crowning achievement of that Crappiness

[Darth Blivion]

For example in KOTOR II it really dosnt matter if you played KOTOR. You may have gotten more out of the Revan bits if you had, but he/she still serves the purpose as a background NPC regardless.

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I'm not sure I agree completely. It's obviously hard to say, since I did play KotOR before KotOR2, but I think that to a person who plays KotOR2 without having played the first game, it might seem as there is a whole lot of chatter about this "Revan guy" who they might not even know who it is.

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I played Kotor2 before Kotor1 and i never felt like, "who is this Revan guy?" The game stands perfectly on its own and it doesn't make you feel like you need to have played the first game. However I did play kotor afterall, just to see why it was more popular than the second.

 

I found that the second is superior to the first, in many aspects.

[nightcleaver]

I agree with you on some points. Obviously having the PC know more than the character will make that character unplayable. I don't have to look further than K2 and the Exile's initial meeting with Atris to see that. She knows who you are and the Exile knows who he/she is but the player knows squat, leading to some confusion on what dialog choices would most befit the character of Exile you wish to play.

 

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That's just silly. The whole purpose of that conversation was to develop the person you were. You are given a nice guideline; Atris' respect and disappointment in you.

 

If the Exile hadn't known who he was in that encounter, it would've been pretty silly.

[ncr]

I don't disagree with Nightcleaver, but it's still confusing.

[Azure79]

I agree with you on some points. Obviously having the PC know more than the character will make that character unplayable. I don't have to look further than K2 and the Exile's initial meeting with Atris to see that. She knows who you are and the Exile knows who he/she is but the player knows squat, leading to some confusion on what dialog choices would most befit the character of Exile you wish to play.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's just silly. The whole purpose of that conversation was to develop the person you were. You are given a nice guideline; Atris' respect and disappointment in you.

 

If the Exile hadn't known who he was in that encounter, it would've been pretty silly.

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Well I'm a silly person most of the time.

 

Yes, it was a conversation to build your character, but throughout the entire conversation I was thinking, "Who are you and why do you hate me? Can't we just get along?"

 

Atris seems to know the Exile too well, but the player has no idea who she is or what her motivations so you feel detached.

[Plano Skywalker]

Well I'm a silly person most of the time.

 

Yes, it was a conversation to build your character, but throughout the entire conversation I was thinking, "Who are you and why do you hate me? Can't we just get along?"

 

Atris seems to know the Exile too well, but the player has no idea who she is or what her motivations so you feel detached.

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I'll be honest, that caught me off guard too at first. This was all about "Design Your Own Backstory" and doing it in the middle of the game and via dialogue....I don't think many cRPGs do that.

 

It is a way of having a rich backstory (which allows for more immersion) and still allowing you to have some say in your backstory....from a storytelling perspective, it was light years ahead of the Revan idea.

[BicycleOfDeath]

Want me to pin this topic so you guys don't have to search the top 7 threads to find it?

 

Also, I've gotten no word whether OE developing KotOR III is official or not.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

I also don't know how the story of K3 will turn out but I have faith in anyone that does it as long as they give to us that which was not in the previous two game... ie: better lightsaber combat and hoods.

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I know this is taking your quote a bit out of context, but....

 

If those are the two most important things you want improved upon in KOTOR3, then I don't think I'd like the game if they catered to you. No offense or anything, but improved lightsaber combat and hoods would rank way down on my list of what would make K3 a great game.

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Then what would you like improved?

 

I thought the lightsaber combat was fine.

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Too slow for me and a bit repetitive. I wouldn't mind it being like the movies but still keep it's turnbased elements.

 

 

Anyways, I honestly can see the Exile and Revan both being playable characters in K3. Both go in the "True Sith" territories and some how have their powers taken away, cheap but still possible. They both then go their seperate ways and hop from sith world to sith world regaining levels. Or they can start with some new schmuck who was lost somewhere during the first two games and gets trained by the new Council... GOD I hope there is a Council with Atton and Mira and Brianna etc.

 

And to the person who said Revan did not regain all of his memories in K2 I think you may be wrong. From what Bastila said in the Sith Holocron it appears that it has been months since Revan's full memories returned and Carth says on Telos that Revan remembered what he did during the Mandalorian Wars and who was behind it and went to stop it.

 

Also, I do believe that K1 and even K2 are Revan's story. We all know why K1 is his story but I felt K2 was his story because of the Revan "chatter" because what he did during the Mandalorian Wars was huge. Even the Exile was a pawn used during Revan's plan. Remember that HK says that Revan wanted the Exile to go back to face the Council, because whatever Revan did there was always a reason behind it.

 

But nevertheless I feel K3 will be great because it's Star Wars.