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homosexuality in RPGs


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"why do you need any sexual option in a crpg? assuming we're referring to common formats (steampunk, fantasy, etc.) i see no real need to have homo or hetero relationships. they really weren't an issue until the BG2 "romances" and even then, they served little point."

 

Romances add to the role-playing. :(

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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"why do you need any sexual option in a crpg? assuming we're referring to common formats (steampunk, fantasy, etc.) i see no real need to have homo or hetero relationships. they really weren't an issue until the BG2 "romances" and even then, they served little point."

 

Romances add to the role-playing. :(

 

What he said...same reason people like romance in films...adds to the story.

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Also, 'romances' can add to the difficulty in a game. In Wasteland, if you had a little.. uh.. romance with the wrong people, you'd end up with a VD.. :(

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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet or not, but Fable had homesexual and bisexual options available to the player. In fact, when I played that game I remember a couple guys falling for me. :(

 

And in Jade Empire you can develop a lesbian relationship with Silk Fox, IIRC. I don't think they showed anything, just the female PC and Silk Fox staring longingly at each other and Fox' lips quivering. And then just before they kiss, the camera cuts away.

 

Also in JE, if you're playing as a male Way of the Closed Fist character, rape and dominance over women is actually implied after you bind your entire party to you. There was an exchange between the PC and Dawn Star that went something like this:

 

PC: Look at me when I talk to you.

 

DS: No. I can't. I refuse to look at you.

 

PC: You will look at me when I address you, Dawn Star. I want you to look at me the same way you looked at me two nights ago.

 

DS: No! That was a lie. All of it!

 

(The PC, invoking is power over her, forces Dawn Star to look him in the eyes.)

 

DS: You're a horrible monster! My body may do what you tell it to, but it is against my will.

 

PC: That is of no concern to me, Dawn Star. You will look at me when I tell you too. And later, we will decide when and how often.

 

Despite how utterly horrible that sounds, this actually serves the story if you know the history between the PC and Dawn Star. It wasn't something that was just randomely thrown in there to show how evil and cruel the PC had become.

 

This relates to the question of pedophilia in games. It has absolutely no place in the game unless it somehow directly reflects the overall story. To just put something that despicable in a game for no apparent reason just smacks of over-reaching to me.

 

You have to remember, society looks upon pedophiles as far worse than the most sadistic serial killer.

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The answer is that it depends on the game. That is not a good answer, nor one people will take in easily but that is the most correct answer. In fable they could have gotten away with it I believe.

 

If there is a purpose behind it. (gaining evil, or the concept isn't something you can do, but even an act someone else has done you are there to avenge) the the content serves a purpose and is deemed distasteful but not put in for no other reason than to have it.

 

I do not think that a game with such content would promote the behavior. It exists in the real world, and what people have to realize is that as games evolve becoming more and more life-like ... well there are degrees of realism. You can't open the gate to near movie quality graphics, stereo quality sound and voice overs, limitless open ended scripts ... and then try and close the bag when you don't like some of the stuff that comes through.

 

Not to mention in several games out of Japan, this subject has already been breached though in a cartoony way.

 

MOST IMPORTANTLY: nothing is ever shoved down your throat, if content offends you, turns your stomach, or just plain stabs at every moral fiber in your body ... don't buy it, don't play it, don't listen to it ... but you do not have a right to judge what content is available to others.

 

PS - and by the way please don't think I want the content to be there. I have a four year old daughter so the subject is very volatile to me. I can't however let me personal feelings change what I believe to be the rights of others. From the safety of your computer or game console do and enjoy what you like. The crime your asking about is so bad because it violates a childs right to choose, to be healthy etc. As long as it's not "live acting" then no rights or children has been harmed. But if comes out of the game and becomes a reality I believe you should be shot in the package daily till you bleed to death.

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Romances add to the role-playing. :lol:

that's why i followed it up with "within the context of the game." i'm sorry, but stomping around in a dungeon is not really something to be considered alongside some sort of romance. furthermore, i did point out two other supporting arguments. the one argument does not necessarily stand well by itself.

 

taks

comrade taks... just because.

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If there is a purpose behind it.  (gaining evil, or the concept isn't something you can do, but even an act someone else has done you are there to avenge) the the content serves a purpose and is deemed distasteful but not put in for no other reason than to have it.

this is a key point... my example, BG2, had zero purpose for the relationships. in toee, same story. why include them if they're nothing more than fluff?

 

if someone were to make a cia/spy crpg (hey, that'd be cool), a relationship may be essential to the story as that is often how the other side is "turned" so to speak. in such a context, it would make sense. in such a context, the options would most likely be limited based on the type of antagonist, and the added scripting/dialog would certainly be worth the extra effort for a homosexual option.

 

just examples, however.

 

taks

comrade taks... just because.

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"my example, BG2, had zero purpose for the relationships."

 

Yes, it did. It made the personal relationships more real, and more dynamic. And, it added tons of role-playing and ability. And, amde the game better.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Correct me if I am wrong but the current census amongst most of us is that homosexuality is pure and innocent while on the other hand the very desire of a person to have romantic affection for person under the age of 18 makes them worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.

Very interesting

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person under the age of 18 makes them worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.

Well I mean't a child, as in child, not teenager. I'm sorry if I was unclear. :lol:

 

homosexuality is pure and innocent

If people want to use the bible as an exuse for saying it isn't so, yet preach that god created all things, why wouldn't it be? Better still, if god created 'us' in his own image, does that make 'him' bisexual?

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Correct me if I am wrong but the current census amongst most of us is that homosexuality is pure and innocent while on the other hand the very desire of a person to have romantic affection for person under the age of 18 makes them worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.

Very interesting

:lol:

...er...could you please explain the context of what you've said here...because I could see myself being very angry with you or laughing at myself for being a reactionary dumb...person...

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Yes, it did. It made the personal relationships more real, and more dynamic. And, it added tons of role-playing and ability. And, amde the game better.

that's not my point. the romances may have added role-playing options, but those options had nothing really to do with the story at hand. put them in context with the story and there are certainly cases, one i pointed out, that they make sense. but not with BG2 or ToEE.

 

adding romance just for the sake of "more options" is ridiculous. i'd rather the developers spent more time figuring out how to actually make the required role-playing more like real role-playing. there were plenty of dead-end stories and ideas in both games (BG2 and ToEE) that could have been fleshed out better, enhancing the overall story. if you want some meaningful relationship with jaheira, buy the sims and do it that way.

 

taks

comrade taks... just because.

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"but those options had nothing really to do with the story at hand. put them in context with the story and there are certainly cases, one I pointed out, that they make sense. but not with BG2 or ToEE."

 

Eh.

 

1. BG2 was a game that was just as much about the side quests as it was about the main story. Half the game - at least - could be taken away as it had nothing to do with the story. Firkragg, the Beholder Cult, the Druid Grove, Nalia's Keep, etc. all could've simply been removed if we followed your suggestion.

 

2. Romances don't add to the story per se; but they add to the interaction with npcs and that's a HUGE part of what role-playing games are about. Making decisions that matter that effect your PC, npcs, and the world around you. Romances add to that dynamic.

 

3. BG2 romances do in a way connect to the 'main story'. Afterall, the PC and Jaheira get close due to her husband being murdered just because he had to be travelling with the PC - another reason to want to kill 'ol Irenicus for causing Jaheira pain which the PC experiences with her (depending on PC perosnality, of course).

 

4. It adds role-playing to a a role-playing game. That's a good thing.

 

5. Don't like the romances, tell them to bugger off.

 

6. None of the npcs in BG2, other than Imoen, really add top the main story. I guess we should get rid of them completely. Just allow the PC to create 5 other characters and be done with the interparty interaction completely. :lol:

 

7. Story is just one part of what games a role-playing game worthwhile. Actual role-playing, and interatcing with npcs is the other part. I seriously doubt the 'dead ends' found in BG2 had anything really to do with the inclusion of romances.

 

8. To each their own. ;)

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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I find myself agreeing with VOlo more often than not lately. Disturbing.

DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself.

 

Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture.

 

"I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "

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Note:  About God being bi-sexual...He first made man (apparently), then made woMAN from man.

o:)

I didn't say he was bisexual, I meant if he created man in his own image, why create gay people if that wasn't also in his own image, they are people also, are they not, therefore people can't really turn to religion to justify being homophobic, am I right?

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The only thing about adding homosexual romances to RPGs that bothers me is a very simple one: the effort to put them in takes away from stories/quests that I, myself, might actually play. In exactly the same way that romances for female PCs take away from possible extra stuff that I might come across. I'm a guy, and I play guy PCs. I like females, so my guy PC likes females. Completely selfish, but in a world where each successive "best RPG ever" has less and less story, I selfishly want as much as I can get.

 

Of course by no means am I advocating that romances for female PCs should be eliminated. It wouldn't bother me one bit if they were, but if the demand for them is sizable enough, of course they should be included. Same goes for homosexual relationships, of course. If the demand is actually there, by all means add them. But if the demand is really tiny, then leave them out and give me more story to play.

 

Very selfish, sorry.

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The only thing about adding homosexual romances to RPGs that bothers me is a very simple one:  the effort to put them in takes away from stories/quests that I, myself, might actually play.  In exactly the same way that romances for female PCs take away from possible extra stuff that I might come across.  I'm a guy, and I play guy PCs.  I like females, so my guy PC likes females.  Completely selfish, but in a world where each successive "best RPG ever" has less and less story, I selfishly want as much as I can get.

 

Of course by no means am I advocating that romances for female PCs should be eliminated.  It wouldn't bother me one bit if they were, but if the demand for them is sizable enough, of course they should be included.  Same goes for homosexual relationships, of course.  If the demand is actually there, by all means add them.  But if the demand is really tiny, then leave them out and give me more story to play.

 

Very selfish, sorry.

Agreed, and I assume the devs and publishers do to. If there is no demand why do something.

I mean all I see here is open minded straight (correct me if I'm wrong) people (With good intentions) discussing gay relationships being included in a game, with no actual gay people expressing any interest whatsoever, and until the time comes that they do, I can't see it being implemented, aswell as (I would assume) being very hard to implement without being cliche and patronising. o:)

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Correct me if I am wrong but the current census amongst most of us is that homosexuality is pure and innocent while on the other hand the very desire of a person to have romantic affection for person under the age of 18 makes them worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.

Very interesting

o:)

...er...could you please explain the context of what you've said here...because I could see myself being very angry with you or laughing at myself for being a reactionary dumb...person...

Angry with me? Why? My perspective on the matter is clear. It is you who have failed to clarify the context of your statement

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Where do we draw the line? Uh, we don't have to draw any lines. The law is quite clear on where the line is. Homosexuality is not a crime, pedophilia (is that a word?) is. And I absolutely hate when people mention homosexuality in almost the same sentence as pedophilia, as if they were somehow connected.

I write this with as much self restraint as I can muster, I promise!

 

The associatation of pedophilia with homosexuality has a long and tangled history. It is as association that has never been proven in any way -- if we discount those with political agendas and questionable research practices, which I do. However, as is the case with things that people want to believe, it lives on in spite of facts. I am not going to touch the child-murder or the pedophilia aspects of this thread, as I feel that they are erroneous in nature in relationship to the subject matter.

 

It is my opinion that in any instance where the representation of any sexuality is appropriate, then the homosexuality is as appropriate as heterosexuality. To me, it is just that simple.

 

11XHooah asked about the innocent nature of Star Wars, and I have to counter by saying that SW is not innocent at all. We see betrayal, genocide, war, slavery, dishonesty, torture, and the obliteration of entire planets (that's just the films, folks). I firmly believe that a scene of two men or women in love would be well inside expectations set by these standards. I find it quite curious that it seems to be acceptable to show a represenation of a man marrying a women in secret, impregnating her and then later murdering said pregnant wife while following a path of a genocidal nature, but that two women kissing might not suite the innocent nature of the franchise. I mean no offense, 11XHooah, but I do find the logic to be somewhat odd.

 

Taks denigrated the concept of romance or intimacy in role-playing games as a whole. I find that the addition of that sort of tension adds to my interest in the character, apparently in much the same way as it detracts from yours. That simply seems to be a case of to-each-their-own. Simply either don't persue such options or don't buy games with such options -- but unless you plan on soley supporting the entire industry, it would be wise to allow for preferences that are not your own.

 

I greatly enjoyed Fable's comedic take on romantic life, and also the little-available option to be bisexual (and polyamorist, okay, technically polygamist -- but who's counting?). Finally!!! While most of the romances did not further the plot, you ended up with a place to stay, and a spouse that may or may not have a dowery and give you gifts if you treat them well and visit often. One romance was its own subplot which added a level of depth to other elements of the story. Even though most of the romance was comedic in nature it did indeed add to the game, but it could also be completely ignored by those that decided to do so.

 

Enough of my ramblings,

 

Cloris

(edited for some spelling and syntax)

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It seems pretty simple to see that the reason that some associate homosexuality with pedophilia is simply that they are both outside the "norm" in terms of sexual behavior. Not that they really are similar at all, though. And since sexuality has mostly been a moral behavior in religious-dominated societies, and there's been only one accepted choice (heterosexuality), the morally unaccepted choices get lumped together.

 

Whether it should be that way or not is beside the point, or a different point altogether.

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And since sexuality has mostly been a moral behavior in religious-dominated societies, and there's been only one accepted choice (heterosexuality), the morally unaccepted choices get lumped together.

 

I believe that only Christianity and Islam have any dogmatic negative stance on homosexuality, and even those have many adherants who are either support or are homosexual.

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The reason games rarely feature homosexual relationships, I think, is just because it would put homophobic people off of buying the product. And there's a lot of homophobes about. It's the same reason most heroes in games and movies are still white men. Nobody objects to seeing a movie about a white man.

 

With games there's perhaps a greater chance of prejudiced people becoming offended, as the game asks you to play the role of the main character rather than just watching him/her. Being bisexual myself i don't fully understand how people would be 'uncomfortable' playing the role of a character with a different sexuality to their own, but it surely offends some who dislike homosexuality.

 

It seems hard to imagine a Star Wars game featuring a known homosexual character, as none of the films have featured one, and to my knowledge, none of the novels or comics. I'm not sure the Star Wars universe is 'innocent' as someone suggested earlier, just old fashioned. Not at all bigoted (I like the large number of alien characters given key roles but notice how thin on the ground strong women are in the series) but certainly old fashioned. Playing the original KOTOR yesterday I coerced Zalbaar into murdering his 14 year old best friend. That's not innocent, and similar stuff happens within the otherwise fairytale world with some regularity.

 

I figure an acurate number of non-stereotyped, non comic-relief gay characters in games is on its way. But, like gay marriage and however many other rights, it'll be a while coming yet.

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