Jayque

Now let's take a history lesson for the fun of it. (My history from memory, possibly a little off ... but this is my recolection of the console game evolution ... also this will be somewhat stream of conciousnous here.) Perhaps my views on games and gaming stem from my history as a gamer. I started with an Atari ... I played Pac-Man, ET, Space Invaders, Pong and a slew of other games. It was fun and even my parents neighbors would come to the house because we were the only house on the block with a game system. We gave our Atari and 40+ game cartridges to my parent's best friend's family as they decided to upgrade to a Commodore. Here I learned to play Pole Position, Frogger, and even had a copy of Zaxon (now that was some innovative stuff back then ... played it on a cassette tape that hooked in) A few years passed and then the Nintendo Entertainment System came ... woot NES. Gyro-bot, Light Gun, controllers oh-my. Some of the NES games were crap - *cough Gauntlet* ... but many were the stuff of legend ... Super Mario 1 and 3 (two was a mistake, but as usual they were trying something new) while I am talking about Mario I want to speak on sequals quick. Mario Brothers, Super Mario Brothers, SM2, and SM3 all on the same system but all were completely different. They were NOT just the same engine with new level and content, they kept challenging the next evolution of the series ... just thought I would point that out. Nintendo's innvoation didn't stop with the Light Gun and Gyro-bot ... but they added the Power Pad and multi-tap. Dam I skipped the legendary games ... Skate or Die, Contra, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Zelda (the sequal kind of bit, but again they tried to make the sequal something different and new from the original), Hogan's Alley, Marble Madness, Mike Tyson's Punch Out, Byou Billy, and Castlevania II Simon's Quest ... Day's of Thunder (first game to try and capture the "thrill" of Nascar) and Top Gun (first flight combat sim worth a poop) (of course I could on, but I believe that is enough of a blast from the past) Of course here we have Sega coming on the scene duking it out with the Genesis ... Nintendo Fire's back with the SNES ... (I skipped some stuff I wanted to add, but I am making this long enough methinks) SNES begins to loose in sales to Genesis .. not because the Genesis was a better system but all because of the sale of one game ported to both systems ... Mortal Kombat ... the sale of Mortal Kombat on the Genesis destroyed the SNES all because Nintendo refused to allow blood (well it was there it was just grey scaled out to look like sweat) ... Nintendo continued with inovation trying light gun again with the Super Scope, and also adding support for mouse ... and I think a musical keyboard, but I might be mistaken (a little fuzzy here) Sega tried to battle the Game Boy here with a much better system, the Game Gear ... but lack of support for the game gear, and affordability of the game boy as well as GBC being reverse compatible helped Nintendo to stay ahead in the handheld market. And at this point (actually a several lines ago) the Neo Geo hits the scene ... a system far beyond the Genesis or SNES ... but again ... Nintendo fought off a better system. I don't know why the Sega CD never took off ... I really don't ... but it didn't and soon after it's short stint came the Playstation ... Sony stole Nintendo's model for success over the other systems ... large product variety and support ... and So they began to mass produce titles (quantity of variation not number per release for those simpletons out there) ... Nintendo decided to not go with a CD ... they chose to keep cartridge based and launched the N64 ... great gaming console with many strong titles ... in the end I think it may have been the controller that did them in. And I think people felt that CD's felt more grown up. Sony did have some great titles on the PSX ... Suikoden, Vanguard, FFVII, Gran Turismo ... Then Sony has the dance pad ... or whatever that thing is ... technology right from the 80's in the ... power pad ... (I have no idea how that thought popped in, it didn't belong here) I forgot where I was going with this ... I think it had something to do with the fact that Nintendo has been there with innovation and new designs ... they are not satisfied to create the same game over and over and over and over ... Gran Turismo 5 is gonna be the same thing as GT4 ... GTA:Beverly Hills ... or Detroit, or London or whatever city they want to name it ... it's gonna be the same ... graphics may change ... sound may improve ... might even change the colors on the menus. It doesn't matter what the power is in the game system ... I don't care if the PS3 is more powerful than an Xbox 360 with a bridged in Revolution. The games that will come out the Revolution (as well as the games that have come out that will be downloadable) and the games that will come out on the 360 will with little doubt in my mind be a much better investment than those on the PS3. It's not the tech it's how you use and support it. Oh ... and as far as backwards compatability goes since some forums I have read make it sound like Sony was brillant for deciding to do this with PS and PS2 ... For those that know but haven't realized it's yet another idea they stole from the success model of Nintendo in the Game Boy backwards compatability that led to the loyalty of its users. Sony is nothing but a Nintendo wannabe. I realize I may sound like a ranting Nintendo fanboy ... I respect them yes, but when I bought my cube I did it only because I already had Xbox and PS2 already. I didn't expect much out of the system but picked it up for the party games that my wife enjoys ... but I ended up being very impressed with a system I do not think it developed the respect it deserves from the gaming community, mostly because they had the preconceived ideas that I do. Just about anyway that bashes the cube has never really played one. I got way off track and for that I appologize. I just hope that designers in the release of next gen games take a step back and look at the roots of gaming. Side-Scroll, FPS, RTS strategy, RPGs ... they all had their first. I hope that we have not already seen every genre of game and that new genres are created. I hope that designers spend time making games with more content ... forty-hours of game play is not enough ... Morrowind GOTY edition should be looked at as a model of game play content. I hope that companies stop trying to release faster ... and spend the time to get in depth with their game design. I don't feel that the current rush to code mentality of gaming will ever allow the full potential of next gen systems to be met. More game play/content ... keep the eye candy and extras ... but they should be a bonus not the wrapping to cover a game poorly designed. I'm done.

Xbox 360 and Nintendo Revolution The PS3 will be a waste of Money. All sony does is mass produce crap as quick as possible to claim the most titles and then people get sucked in. There were maybe 3 titles on the PS2 that were worth paying for that could not be obtained on either the cube or the xbox ... Learn from history.

I disagree. Richard Garriot was one of the premier RPG designers, and Ultima Online failed to deliver a true RPG experience. Most MMO designers will tell you that they are trying to capture the single-player RPG experience, in adding a story with depth. But it's hard to script a story for 100,000 players. I was a story-teller in an international LARP game with thousands of players. Running a table-top game for your friends is far easier than crafting a story for a game where 80 players might show up, and you don't know what characters will be in play. MMOs face the same problem on a bigger scale. In KOTOR, you were Revan. You were the main character, and you were at the center of the action. Games like the Matrix Online are trying to allow players to get enough fame and reknown to eventually impact major plots in the Matrix universe. But single players in a game that scale will likely never get the same experience as they did when they played a single player game like KOTOR. MMOs have their strengths, and their weaknesses. I'm sure you can make interesting quests, and do more to improve MMOs, but I don't think an MMO will ever capture the true cinematic Star Wars experience. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL, Garriot was a hack, but we obviously disagree on this point! I alpha/beta tested UO and knew from the get go it was going to fail soon as their was real compitition to it (which happened immediately when EQ came on the scene) because it was designed as FFA PVP game. The cancelled accounts got so bad after EQ came on the scene that Garriot ran away with his tail between his legs and a mirror copy of the UO world was made and coded as totally non pvp. Soon as that happened the PvP areas became barren, rarely visited, ghost areas to the point that Origin had to create UBER drop Champion Spawns in the PvP areas just to get some of the adventures to re enter the pvp areas. UO from day 1 was plauged with exploits, bugs, corrupt GMs, and just about every other problem you could imagine. Its no wonder that today MORE people play on FREE Player created and run shards then subscribe to UO. It took these players YEARS to break and copy and learn the UO coding but they did it so they could play on non Origin (no idea who bought it from origin) run UO worlds. Thats how ground breaking Richard Garriot was. Heck, even in offline games, SSI's gold box games were ten times the game Ultima was, for me anyways. But I digest! No game, be it offline or online will ever capture the effect of a Original ran movie (IE: Movie came out first). But MMORPGs can if designed correctly capture the exitement and continuing feeling of adventure found in offline games. Sure you wont be Revan, who cares? In a MMORPG you can be GREATER then Revan, Greater then the Exile, Greater then Darth Vader, but you have to EARN that status. Unlike in a offline game where you have a cutscreen of NPCs cheering you, you have to earn the deeds so the other players cheer you. And that does actually happen when a game is designed correctly. Sure that will not happen in WoW because that game is designed so EVERYONE can do EVERYTHING, there is no seperation, nothing is overly special. Going back to EQ, when the first person (not me) finished all 10 stages of the giant quest it was known across the server and for a period of time that player was famous to his peers (others that played the game). So Im sure he had the same exileration you find in a offline game. Throw in a well made cut screen movie for the end of quest and he could have had the NPCs cheering him as well. But unlike a offline game, hes NOT finished, he can continue on a fter that and let his reputation grow even more. Anyway you look at it, thats an accomplishment. Speaking for myself, 15 years ago I played Neverwinter Nights on AOL. I was totally addicted to PvP an unlike todays pvp it was set up in a matter of contests. We ran a pvp ladder, you would start at the bottom and work your way up through defeating those above you in pvp contests. I did fairly well on the singles ladder but was apart of one of the top 3 teams on the doubles ladder. I can say with no exageration, I earned a great deal of recognition in that game because of this. To the point that 14 years later I logged into a player run version of it and my name was still recognized as one of the more known old time players of the original. That made me smile and added some jump to my step, so to speak. So yes you can capture a wide range of emotions from a MMORPG just as you can from a offline game. Either if well made can capture the same emotional responce. Only true difference is the offline game ends. The MMORPG continues on. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I couldn't agree with you more Kalfear if I wrote your post myself. I will even take it a step further and say I have been on some PvP MUDs that were done well enough to garner the same emotional rewards you refrence. If you strip away all the eye-candy a MMO is only as good as the content. KoToR:online, in my head, has the potential for multiple story arcs ... factions, worlds, stories, lives, and enemies never seen, never explored and with enough depth and drama to excite the most hard core of gamers. It's a wonderful time period, and the game engine (since designed off a platform requiring at least two real players anyway) that just begs to be converted into an MMO. And on top of all that, with the potential of the next gen systems yet to be explored who knows what eye candy and innovations can be created to make it as great a cinamatic experience as possible. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it can't.

My biggest wish for the third installment is content length. I want a game that lasts longer than three days. I want ten planets ... I want planets that exist for leveling/exploring/sidequesting that have nothing to do with the main plot, but allow you to explore and play with your characters. I don't want to play half the game before I get my first Lightsabre. I don't want to have the game end before I even get to utilize all my characters to their full potential. Main game should offer at least 60 hours gameplay minimum. With sidequests and fully explored the game should offer twice that. (actually the only game on xbox that offered that much content was Morrowind. 180 hours and still not through it all, counting the expansion from the game of the year edition.) I don't think that replay value by choosing between six starting models (3 male 3 female) and choosing between DS and LS endings should warrant the game to be short. I want the third game to be Epic.

While I wont argue that the time period SWG used has hurt the game (as that time era is to stringent and really less exciting then the KotOR time frames) I, having played SWG on 2 different occations now for over 6 month periods each time, really get bored with the false assumptions that jedis are so common and hurt the game. Lets go over the actual facts on what hurts SWG: 1) Time Frame. Its boring to be rather blunt. The time frame is the same one used in ANH for the most part and it lacks the factions needed to create a truely engrossing game. All there is (for players) is rebel or Imperial. KotOR time frame adds a much greater amount of feasible factions so you are not forced into one or the other. 2) Classes. One of the greatest draw backs to SWG is 2 specific classes. A) Creature Handlers: This class plays NO PART in Star Wars enviroment and really is only apart of the game because it was a favorite of the designers from UO. It comes as no surprise that its also a GREATLY overpowered class because of that fact. B) Bounty Hunters: While people will argue (and rightfully to some extent) Bounty Hunters do play a great part in Star Wars history, the fact of the matter is BHs in SWG are used ONLY as a excuse to FORCE pvp on unwilling players. Currently BHs reknown for useing a exploit to get newbie padawens listed on the BH terminals so they can then use their BHs to get the bounty (even though newbie padawens suffer a HUGE xp loss and are as powerful as a newly rolled character...IE: no challenge what so ever). With out a complete redrafting of Bounty hunters classes, they will remain the number 1 class that ruins SWG for players. Should also be noted that BHs almost NEVER attack a Jedi Knight or higher because there is a very good chance the Jedi Knight will win (as one would expect) so in effect all the BH class allows is PKING of newbies. Just like those idiots that farm newbie zones in all PK games/shards. It not that its a challenge (its not) its just the fact they can ruin someone elses day by constantly farming them over and over with ZERO chance of being defeated themselves. That folks is NOT a good design for a class or a game EVER! Every game to date that has gone with this rule set has failed and either gone bankrupt or changed their rules to allow save adventureing zones. Every game that supports all PK shards/worlds/servers has close to the lowest population (or actual lowest population) for that shard/world/server. That also doesnt even start to address the problems SWG encounters from having a class that is allowed to PK unwilling or unagreeing players. Forced PvP is proven (unconsentual pvp) to be the biggest game breaker for a MMORPG through out the entire history of MMORPGs. Anyone that argues that FACT is either point blank lieing or totally and completely uninformed regarding the issue. The history doesnt lie and is there for anyone who spends the moments needed to understand the issue. 3) Broken Economy. SWG tried, and failed, to go with a player run economy where the players create EVERYTHING. This failed as it created such a high cost enviroment that new players will never be able to afford goods and old players will always have the advantage in regards to equipment, be it armor, speeders, weapons, what ever. Their attempts just outright failed. 4) Lack of quests. SWG has missions that are generic and uninteresting. The NPC quests you can get are identical copies of the different missions and fail to create any type of story, enviroment, or interest. Also terminal missions rewards are much better then the existing quests meaning the only other reason (better loot) is non existant as well. 5) Time sinks. Many players in EQ, DAoC, AC, Lineage, ect complain about leveling time sinks yet ALL of those games pale in comparrison to the unneded/unwanted/boring time sinks SWG makes you do. There leveling system while intellegently hidden is just your basic leveling system found in any other game really. The leveling itself tho is 100 times more boring. Its just a bad system over all. But so was Ultima Onlines and since SWG is nothing more then UO enhanced and with a Star Wars shell, its no great surprise its bad. I could go on into lag issues caused by people leaving a barker droid in a city causeing you lag as they shout the same thing over and over annoying people. How jumbled up the party system is in game, how speeders HUGELY hurt the game, and more. All these issues are major things that break SWG. How many jedi there are just isnt even in the top ten. Its just a exagerated excused used by those that have never played the game or failed to acheive a jedi of their own in the game. For as much as its complained about one would think its a HUGE issue BUT ITS NOT. SWG has a ton of problems that a KotOR MMORPG could address easily and fairly (frankly other then the time era setting, SOE could (if they wanted to) could also address). Jedi are just quite frankly not one of those issues and anyone with ANY knowledge of MMORPGs in general and SWG in specific would know that. Sorry for rant but tired of reading stupid stuff like this. Its stupid posts like this (saying to many Jedi) that has caused many of the problems in SWG as SOE has taken them serious over the years and made changes only to see their subscription rate drop lower and lower and lower (The jedi Revamp made it actually harder to get a jedi then before and it came as no surprise to experienced players that it failed to stop the bleeding regarding cancelled accounts). Just like this lastest combat upgrade change. It has failed to attract people back because it only addressed problems from a bias area and NOT from those that posted why they were leaving. If SOE spent more time reading why people leave rather then listening to those only interested in improving game for themselves they would be in alot better condition. No surprise that of those leaving game, to many jedi never seems to get mentioned EVER! (and why should it when in a 8 hour period of playing you "MIGHT" see 2 maybe 3 jedis total anyways, and they never interacting with you anyways usually as jedi take a xp penalty for grouping with non jedi) Its just a urban legend excuse. Just like those that say SWG is EQ in space. If those that said that actually played SWG and EQ they would know the two games are about as opposite as 2 games can be on every aspect. Now, lets look at what a KotOR MMORPG (useing same style engine as offline games ) could achieve right outta the box. 1) Grouping. The engine and design used in KotOR 1 and 2 makes grouping and targeting much freindlier then the style SWG uses. Since FFXI uses a similiar engine this is already PROVEN FACT. Remember, im not speaking about the forced grouping design of FFXI but about grouping in general. 2) Time Frame. Being the Old Republic, this means a MMORPG could have different factions a person could join. Be it the republic, the sith, czerka, trade federation, Hutts, what ever. Since there really is no great one all mighty commander (republic there but its reach is short at best). Players could join any of these factions and quest and adventure based on their choices. Or they could join none and hire themselves out on a job to job status. Imagine going through the Sith Academy trials to become a sith. Or jedi trials on Corosaunt or Dant to become a jedi. The options are endless. 3) More Jedi. I say this just because some people like to bitch and moan that ANH era isnt suppose to have jedi. Honestly its just a case for suspended disbelief and anyone with common sence knows that but what ever. Use this time frame and people can stop nit picking the most literal reading of the setting. Yes there is such a thing as being totally anal and this topic is one of them IMO! What the "*whaaaa* there to many jedi *whaaa*" posters fail to realise is JEDI SELL! Its the jedi that are the reason the mass majority try Star Wars. Remove the jedi and you remove its NUMBER ONE selling point. 4) Economy. Having seen the negative effects in DAoC and SWG they could avoid totally player run economies (all items worth anything created by players) and go back to a EQ style (but instanced to avoid the wait times and respawns that caused problems in EQ) of questing for best items. 5) PVP Entire planets that are pro pvp. Planets like Malacor V could be pvp enabled where as planets like Dantoine are not. This allows for the faction vers faction much like you find in DAoCs RvR. You know adventureing on Malacor V you are agreeing to pvp there for eliminating the unconsentual pvp that ruins pvp in many games. The could place temples and such on Malacor that would give specific factions and/or guilds/alliances special SMALL bonuses in pvp (sorta like holding a Relic did in DAoC). While the majority of planets would be totally non pvp, they could have outter rim planets that are pro pvp. Those interested in pvp could go there, those not could stay in known space. 6) Quests!!!!!! Star Wars should be about quests in my opinion. Thats all the off line games are, stories being told inside a setting. This is where SWG fails. Goto the Ewok villiages, not a single quest to be found. When you do find a quest its boring, its kill off a set number of whatever of find and escort a npc back. Quest should be much more involved and tell a story. 7) Cut Screens. FFXI proved that cutscreens DO WORK in a MMORPG. So we could have the same thing in a KotOR MMORPG which would greatly improve the enviroment of the quest/mission your on. Fact is, Star Wars hasnt been done correctly yet. For as many good things as SWG has (housing is great but overdone like UO), its negatives far outweight the positives. A KotOR MMORPG could fix all those things and create a great experience for all players. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ditto ... ditto ... ditto

Yann, you obviously did not even read all the posts. Granted there has been a lot of them ... but really your comments have little to do with the points made. First there is no reason that making a KOTOR mmo would delay the release of the third installment in the series if there is one. another game in the proper series??? that doesn't even make sense. What is the proper series? It's not about milking a cash cow ... it's about taking a fun game engine (my opinion) and making it multi-player. It's about using the setting of the old republic for limitless new content to fill an online community. if the resultant game is like galaxies??? are you unable to read??? I would say about sixteen times the point was made that the game should NOT be like galaxies ... it should be LIKE KOTOR ... and for several reasons.

Joukahainen: The reason for the Jedi problem/debate in SWG wasn't that too many Jedi would make the game not fun ... the problem was that the game takes place in a time where to the public, the Jedi are completely gone. The debate then raged on what is more important keeping the game historically accurate, or giving the players what they want. They chose neither. The anti-Jedi players still have to deal with the fact that Jedi are around, and those that want to play Jedi have to live on the game for six months to have a prayer of gaining. The idea was to keep them rare by taking the joy out of obtaining one, and in the end no one was really happy with the solution. The idea for KOTOR: online as suggested was to take a proven game engine, which was based on a proven pen and paper game engine, and make it multi-player. MMO's were bred from pen and paper games being molded into the online community. The first MUD's were basically D&D as best as possible through code in always the same respawn world, where players could play there pen and paper text games with the world coming to life by the interaction of other online players. KOTOR:online would not suffer from "too many Jedi" because as you have seen from the games Jedi are a lot more common in this time period. It has the potential ... it is just the direction they take it. If they make it a multi-player game evolved from the current game play of KOTOR with things like item customization, combat system, leveling, ability choices etc ... with the choice to take your character in several directions, maybe a Sith Academy as in KOTOR 1, or rebuilding of Jedi Enclave, with the ability to go help rebuild that planet (whose name escapes me at the moment) that was bombarded, perhaps play some Pazak against a live opponent, with direction of character ranging the elite Sith and Jedi classes from KOTOR 2, to advanced versions of smugglers, bounty hunters etc. (not all players would want to play sith/jedi) Again I feel the potential exists for a wonderful multiplayer world, filled with gaming content, PVE, PVP, quests, loot, equipment, leveling, exploration, and advancement through the ranks of whatever proffesion you feel is best. All done in a world and time that has barely begun to be discovered.

Thank you Kalfear ... ditto on your entire post.

Many people more mature than you hold abortion to be wrong. Do not create the false premise that believing abortion is wrong denotes immaturity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> -I am not. I am stating that as I grew, not just in maturity, but in life experience. that I saw the world in a greater aspect. I am not equating immaturity to the belief of immorality in abortion ... I am equating immaturity to the egocentric stance that creates a one morality for all based on ones own small glimpse of the world. I am not stating ALL posters that have argued abortion is a moral inferno are immature. I am arguing that there is a strong degree of egocentriscm that takes place when your world and circumstances (or those of someone you know) are placed on the world at large as a standard. That is true, but if you are suggesting that being opposed to abortion is popular, you are again wrong. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> -Actually I am stating that if you go back and do a count on posts there will be a HUGE difference in the number Against vs. the number for. I am stating that just because and idea sounds great (I mean really in all seriousness who wants to "murder a baby" it sounds dreadful and it is used to shock and scare people into taking a stance against abortion) doesn't make it right. I mean how many demostrations have you seen in front of a clinic were people are patting girls on the back, and throwing confetti? It doesn't happen. The only time (generally there are exceptions I will admit) that you see pro-choice vocal is when it comes time to debate the legality (and by the way not the morality) of a women's right to choose. Where as it is fine to throw a party in front of abortion clinic and all but stone ... well they have blown some up, so I guess stoning is a possiblity ... the patrons of the clinic. Which is vocally more popular?

Agnostic

After reading the posts I am convinced that many people have taken an anti-abortion moral high ground because it make you seem like the defender of human rights. Well I use to feel like many of you do. I knew within every inch of my soul that abortion was wrong. It was immoral. It was an tragedy against an unborn child and judges were actually condoning murder. Then I grew up. I realized that doing what is right is not always doing what is popular. There is a debate longstanding of when it is murder and when it is not. I can accept the definition of when the fetus is able to live on it's own outside the womb. Many of you have written about abortion being contraception. Abortion is painful. Abortion is mentally exhausting. Abortion is nauseating. Why don't you go to a clinic. Why don't you see a woman come out in tears, barely able to walk clutching her stomach from the pain and the mental anguish of emptiness. And preach some more about the ease in which people have this procedure done. It is easier to judge the actions of others because as long as there are these child murdering monsters out there you feel better about who you are. Point the finger and avoid the mirror. I do believe that there is a choice that is made at conception and that choice is the risk of to do or not to do. I also believe that mistakes are made. I also believe that our world is overpopulated, we have hunger problems, health care problems, homeless problems, unemployment, and poverty. Sure from your personal computer that your parents could afford (or for about 10% of you you bought yourself). Sure you can preach about how some people have managed to struggle as a single mother and put themselves through school ... but you know, its one thing to claim a mother's hardships are her own fault, it is another to force an unwanted life to be birthed into the world and live in a state of misery, loneliness, and discontent. I don't feel abortion is great, but it is a legal option and better than many alternatives. I don't want twelve year olds raising children ... the ones being raised by twenty year olds are bad enough. There are better option, but is it morally wrong to do the legal thing, for the right reasons? ... don't judge the choices another makes because from your personal paradise life is easy. To me, the moral corruption is the ability to spit on others without putting yourself in their shoes. And no, don't come back and say "but Susy Q from down the street was able to ... " no. that doesn't count because Susy Q wasn't in everyone elses shoes. The ability to make a choice on what you think is best for you in your current situation, that is the gift and curse of humanity. Everyone has darkness in there path somewhere. I have never known a person who hasn't done something they weren't proud of.

-So you are saying that adding to another outlet is the reason they did this? Hrmmm even the xbox as another outlet ... made good business sense to a developer .... hmmmm yet you berrated my idea for bringing a SW MMO to xbox because it was already avail (the genre not the game) on PC ... yet they find not just the genre but the very game itself to be a good marketing and financially rewarding vestment when porting it into another system to breathe in more life and revenue... hrmmmmmmm As for my other comentaries ... -I don't even know what point you are trying to make here. I believe that you are attempting to show that PS2 being more versatile makes it a more likely candidate for an MMO ... ok ... but that doesn't show that Xbox can't do it ... in fact, they are planning on it ... hrmmmmmm -yes and SWG was originally supposed to be released for Xbox Live in its initial line-up ... it didn't. Do you realize how many concepts never take flight? I have not once, ever seen a statement stating that the reason these titles were cancelled was because the Xbox could not do an MMO ... not once. Not to say they haven't, just that I have never ever seen it. It would not make sense to me if they were cancelled because of system limitations. Why in the hell would they keep coming back to the same idea; an MMO is needed for the platform. -This statement is something you made up, with either bad facts or just felt like no one would catch it. Some MMO's have a 6 month lifespan. Look at UO, EQ, SWG these games have been around self-supporting for years. Even EQOA lasted longer than six months before exodus. In fact it lasted up until they did not add content after frontiers. (Then again they are still occasionally patching in content and the game itself is still active) The six month exodus is a mild thing that occurs from players testing out a new concept who decide it's not for them ... or they shift to the newest thing ... (I do not have the financials on what can be considered revenue on the monthly maintenance however I doubt they are loosing their ass on the deal. especially since a game like Guild Wars can come out with NO MONTHLY FEE ... yet these games are non-profitable and non-self supporting right?) ... hrmmmmm - uhmmmm what???? that has got to be your least intelligent rebuttle yet. What do these two games have to do with my wish for a KoTOR: ONLINE game? apparently if you think the draw of The Sims is equal to or greater than the draw to Star Wars ... you are no where near informed enough to be allowed to participate in forum discussions. Especially considering that the SWG exodus now occuring is not due to the game, which for two years has maintained a strong player base, but in fact do to the fact that SOE screwed over the players and completely changed the game they had become loyal to and refused to fix the real issues within the game. 1) Because SWG, as mentioned in my statment above, is being destroyed for many long term players ... uhmmm yes. Yes I believe they would as they have already left and are just looking for the content to migrate to. (currently guild wars and mXo) 2) Well they played/are playing now for the better part of two years on SWG .. so uhmmm ... YES. 3) I am not proposing SWG with different models. Not once can you quote that I want Galaxies with different models. This shows that you are just making crap up to shoot down the idea. You have not read anything of substance in what I have written. In fact I believe I have often said that the reason I believe that LA would be possibly willing to back the idea is if the mechanics, concept, and play were vastly different than SWG and had more of a KOTOR feel to them. 1) Yes they can change from that model much. You truly have no concept of the word innovative do you? 2) Yes they could allow the start from a Jedi Class ... or perhaps start it more similar to the KOTOR as a scoundral, soldier, explorer etc. Require a level entry to either begin life as a bounty hunter, or enter the jedi as an initiate. Other elite proffesion options would be available. 3) KoTOR was based on fighting classes, gaining advancement very similar to the Pen and Paper game, with standard character growth (EQ style in comparison)... this is all highly different than the concept of SWG which is skill branch (not level) oriented, and has a more UO feel to it overall (if you had to make a comparison) -uhmmm yes .. yes I do, and you would to if you would actually read what I am saying, instead of perusing my post for your next possible half baked gripe. -Yes and no. (look at EQ) They can be detailed enough. But no, full voice acting in long monologues will more than likely not even be feesable. -what? what are you talking about??? So the truth comes out ... all of this hate over my idea for what I wanted to see, brought on because you don't like MMO's. You think they are stale. You think they have no story. Well if it's not for you, how about you go talk about something you do like. If you enjoyed MMO's and felt the idea not feesable that's one thing .... but this entire discussion has been like NBA fan trying to argue why the NFL shouldn't have an expansion team. You have a loose concept of what's going on but you are driven by your lack of interest in the genre and quite possibly your contempt. -Oh and to answer your questions MMO's do have a story. But the game world is more of a backdrop for characters to grow. Sure it's not linear ... but I have always thought linear stories were meant for those without the imagination to see choice. Guess that would be why MMO's aren't for you?

The answer is that it depends on the game. That is not a good answer, nor one people will take in easily but that is the most correct answer. In fable they could have gotten away with it I believe. If there is a purpose behind it. (gaining evil, or the concept isn't something you can do, but even an act someone else has done you are there to avenge) the the content serves a purpose and is deemed distasteful but not put in for no other reason than to have it. I do not think that a game with such content would promote the behavior. It exists in the real world, and what people have to realize is that as games evolve becoming more and more life-like ... well there are degrees of realism. You can't open the gate to near movie quality graphics, stereo quality sound and voice overs, limitless open ended scripts ... and then try and close the bag when you don't like some of the stuff that comes through. Not to mention in several games out of Japan, this subject has already been breached though in a cartoony way. MOST IMPORTANTLY: nothing is ever shoved down your throat, if content offends you, turns your stomach, or just plain stabs at every moral fiber in your body ... don't buy it, don't play it, don't listen to it ... but you do not have a right to judge what content is available to others. PS - and by the way please don't think I want the content to be there. I have a four year old daughter so the subject is very volatile to me. I can't however let me personal feelings change what I believe to be the rights of others. From the safety of your computer or game console do and enjoy what you like. The crime your asking about is so bad because it violates a childs right to choose, to be healthy etc. As long as it's not "live acting" then no rights or children has been harmed. But if comes out of the game and becomes a reality I believe you should be shot in the package daily till you bleed to death.

You Might be a Redneck Jedi If..... * You ever heard the phrase, "May the force be with ya'll." * Your Jedi robe is camouflage. * You have ever used your light saber to open a bottle of Bud Light. * At least one wing of your X-Wings is primer colored. * You can easily describe the taste of an Ewok. * You have ever had a land-speeder up on blocks in your yard. * The worst part of spending time on Dagobah is the dadgum skeeters. * Wookies are offended by your B.O. * You have ever used the Force to get yourself another beer so you didn't have to wait for a commercial. * You have ever used the Force in conjunction with fishing/bowling. * Your father has ever said to you, "Shoot, son come on over to the dark side... it'll be a hoot." * You have ever had your R-2 unit use its self-defense electro-shock thingy to get the barbecue grill to light. * You have a Confederate flag painted on the hood of your land-speeder. * You have the doors of your X-wing welded shut and you have to get in through the window. * Although you had to kill him, you kinda thought that Jabba the Hutt had a pretty good handle on how to treat his women. * You have a cousin who bears a strong resemblance to Chewbacca. * You suggested that they outfit the Millennium Falcon with a redwood deck. * You were the only one drinking Jack Daniels during the cantina scene. * Your business cards read "Billy Bob, Jedi Master". * Your Y-wing fighter has a bumper sticker that reads "My other fighter is an X-wing". * You know Ewoks squeal like pigs. * You use your R-2 unit as a beer coaster. * When your sister wears her metallic bikini, you insist she travels by clinging to you while swinging on a rope. * Your land-speeder had a light saber rack. * Your land-speeder has a bumper sticker that reads "Protected by Smith & Wesson Light Sabers" * If you hear ... "Billy Bob, I am your father ... AND your uncle!"

The below is a small bit of info from a Nintendo pre-E3 press conference Revolution After an impressive highlight reel showcasing upcoming GBA software, Mr. Iwata returned to the stage and gave the crowd what it was hoping for -- a first-look at a prototype of Nintendo's next console, code-name Revolution. Mr. Iwata revealed that Revolution will be arriving in 2006 and announced that the system will be backward compatible with Nintendo GameCube games. In addition, Revolution will have downloadable access to 20 years of fan-favorite titles originally released for Nintendo 64, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System, and even the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Mr. Iwata also announced that Revolution will feature wireless controllers and compatibility with the newly announced wireless gaming service Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection. Many attendees cheered when Mr. Iwata revealed that key franchises will be compatible with Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection at launch, including Super Smash Bros. Other details about Revolution include: Sophisticated Design. The new console is approximately the size of three standard DVD cases stacked together, and it was displayed in a variety of prototype colors at E3. The console will come with a sleek silver stand allowing it to be displayed vertically or horizontally. Backward Compatibility. Revolution will play all of your favorite Nintendo GameCube games. An innovative self-loading media bay will play both 12-centimeter optical discs used for the new system as well as Nintendo GameCube discs. You can also equip a small, self-contained attachment to play movies and other DVD content. Huge Historic Library. Revolution will have downloadable access to 20 years of fan-favorite titles originally released for Nintendo 64, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES) and even the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Big Names. Nintendo announced that new franchise properties will be added to current super-star franchises including Mario, Zelda, Super Smash Bros., Donkey Kong and Metroid. Wi-Fi Freedom. A worldwide network of Nintendo players can gather to compete in a comfortable, inviting environment using Nintendo's newly announced wireless gaming service, Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection.

The below is a small portion of a recap of a pre-E3 press conference Microsoft was supported on stage by Electronic Arts (EA) president Don Mattrick. He announced that there are 25 titles currently in development at EA for the Xbox 360. President of Square Enix, Yoichi Wada, announced the first game in his Final Fantasy series to come to the Xbox, Final Fantasy XI Online. Mr. Wada announced to the stunned crowd that Microsoft and Square Enix "share a vision for the future of entertainment." HRMMMM ... could they be saying that Microsoft is planning to do a MMO for 360 ... why yes ... yes they are ... could they be saying the MS realizes like Enix that online play with other gamers is the future of gamin ... could be interpretted that way ... Now ... that being said as many MMO carriers have branched into other genre's to capitalize on the market share of MMO gaming. A reasonable person could assume that a second Star Wars MMO with a different premise, game play, functionality, and timeline would be a possible outcome of the second online game for the 360.

Just thought I would point this out given the topic and all. I was playing through the original KOTOR and never once before had I noticed this. But when you get to Dantooine at the Jedi Enclave, you meet a woman who's droid has been kidnapped. Turns out the droid has just run away, blah blah blah. I never before noticed the undertones... and they weren't even that subtle. They all but say flat out she was using the droid to pleasure herself. Not just by the lighthearted way they refer to it as her "personal droid" for "personal" needs ... but when you actually ask if it means "ALL" personal needs ... the droid responds "you don't want to know" ... I thought of this chat string and began to laugh hysterically ... so yeah there are hidden undertones in the Star Wars games for anyone that doubted.

And you are saying the PS2 was? Perhaps I should go back an edit mine post with a "(on Xbox)" since it was as simple and obvious what I meant with that line as I thought. (Because unless I am completely ignorant ... Asheron's I and II was PC only) stream-lining could include building on already active franchises. But MOST IMPORTANTLY: this is an idea that I ... me personally ... feel would be a good investment of time and resources for the players, the fans, the companies involved ... this is my opinion and unlikely wish, not a direct request to MS to change their current stance (which being a "current" stance means they could change their mind as they often do) You are right. It's not about Microsoft plans. It is about what I feel to be enjoyable content to spend my hard earned dollars on. It is about what I feel is lacking in entertainment choices currently available and that could be filled. However from a business aspect it would be Microsoft, Lucas Arts, Obsidian/bioware (or whatever developer) And SOE has had no problem making money of EQ EQII and EQOA ... why did EQOA hit so well? because it was an additional outlet for content for those without high end computers. It was revenue ... and it proved that players would cross games across different mediums as many EQOA players were EQ players as well. What would be necessary is that the game of KOTOR:ONLINE would be different than SWG ... a different concept, a different game mechanic ... I am not suggesting SWG II ... I am suggesting a different game ... To other points made previously: Hardware ... uhmm with the Xbox Mech game they did design a new and special controller ... so yeah I believe if they had a use, they would develop a KB especially if it opened up new gaming options for them. (though they may wait for the 360) With network ... you need regular network connection to use Xbox Live, so while you may be right that perhaps (and this is a maybe) X-live cannot support ... but the Xbox in fact can. And the residual income brought on by MMO's is far more desired to some people than the one time shot of selling solo play software.

And I could point out that on more than one occasion (and currently) Microsoft has played with the idea of MMO's ... and eventually they will have one ... just a matter of which.

thanks kal:)

I guess my thought on the filter is that I do appreciate the artists intent regardless what that be. I still can't see DVD's with the "G" rated version of "Pulp Fiction" as a filter option ... I realize that for many DVD's, music, etc have nothing to with games, but in so many ways they do. Now I can see a point in filters for "mainstream" games ... or games appealing to a wide audience ... but in these cases the content would be PG or PG-13 at best equivalent. Going back to the DVD example to you really expect a mainstream movie like say "Shark Tale" to have "bad content" option that will allow you to watch the fish do the nasty? Or here Oscar cursing Lenny? Point being that content should be geared toward the target audience. If it is fitting for the selected game to have cursing, nudity whatever ... fine ... that is why we have the entire rating system ... If it's not ... then I don't want to play a kiddie game just because it has couple easter egg nudie clips. Keep the content uncensored ... but keep it where it belongs. And that way if you see something that you don't want to watch or listen to then you don't buy it. But the truth is that revenue for adult content is there regardless if it has a clean version so a seven year old can play. To that degree ... given the technology, given the rating system in place, given the fact that games are already coming out, not just PC but on consoles as well ... then the answer to the topic question "So is it Time?" would be that it is past time and you are running late.

The reason for such content is simple. It is the same reason that there is such content in art, books, plays, movies, music, TV's etc. Videogames are a form of expression. Sure they are "fun" but in reality they are another medium for expression. Art is a reflection of life. Life includes nudity, violence, foul language. It is common. I believe I learned my first swear word when I was six as a biker traveling down the road gave my friend and I the bird for no reason. I had no clue what it meant but my friend told me. I asked my dad if the f-bomb was a bad word. He looked at me told me it meant nothing and I never used it because I didn't think the word real. Point isn't an anecdote of my youth, but the fact that video game language, nudity, violence is the least of problems when it comes to content. The content is all around us, and if that same realism lacks in games, movies, etc it can come across as fake or padded with fluff. Now I don't think that a game titled "Whinney the Pooh helps Tigger" should contain the F-bomb, or Whinney jack hammering Tigger from behind ... But I do feel that if you are playing the role of say a detective in a voice acted action game ... then yes some profanity may fit in there. Nudity has already entered the gaming community. Playboy's Mansion, The Guy game, BMX XXX ... even the latest Leisure suit larry ... Even the idea of sensuality (DOA beach volley ball) The market is there and that alone is enough for designers ... should there be an on off filter for content? nope. If you don't want the content don't buy the product. Is there a filter for R rated movies on DVD? In "Blade Trinity" does Blade really need to drop the F-Bomb? It gives realism to a character in an unrealistic scenario helping the viewer to accept the overall concept. And to whoever felt that Video games are directed at kids still ... sorry but the average age of gamers these days is twenty-seven. And most mature gamers can handle a little bit of adult content without blushing or getting bent out of shape about it. In fact a lot of times the ones getting bent out of shape have never seen or heard what they are complaining about. Ask any mother who berates Eminem if she has ever listened to his lyrics to know what he actual says that is bad ... most haven't. Or take it directly to the video game rating system. A craze brought on by Mortal Kombat and its gore. In which the majority of protestors and lobbyist involved admitted to not actually seeing the content first hand. Nintendo trying to be responsible greyed out the blood as "sweat" but when Sega kicked the snot out of them in sells ... they made sure the next release had red blood. People are too damn sheltered and censorship is horrible. If you aren't mature enough to deal with mature content then go by a doctor seuss book, listen to some barney songs, watch care bears, and play some Mickey's Magic Kingdom on the Nintendo. And if it offends you ... just don't buy it.

Well I had told myself that I wasn't gonna "defend" the idea, and that people were entitled to their opinion, and it was all moot since it would never happen. However, apparently I lied to myself as I am now about to answer questions posed. To the response of it being the worst idea ever because the Xbox had no keyboard. It's not like they couldn't develop one ... they also have the headset with Xbox live and for those that played EQOA for PS2, it is very possible and fun to play a MMO without a KB ... worst idea ever? no I believe that was the idea of adding periods to female characters to increase realism To the question of why would LA want a second MMO? ... Money. Many players and die hard fans would likely obtain accounts on both games. Especially if they are different enough in design and concept. Second they are loosing subscribers currently on SWG and something fresh would gain back the revenue. Third it's not like genre's can't have more than one outlet. It's not like the market is saturated. If they built it, they would come ... no doubt about that. How many "fantasy" setting MMO's are currently up and running. And again, they would be able to tap into the Xbox live community not currently part of the market share making up the current MMO in the SW universe. To the question of plotline ... it wouldn't be a continuation of the current script ... but an avenue for side adventure and character building in the EU. The setting would be the KOTOR timeline. Possibly set in the time of the Mandolorian wars ... possibly set during the rebuilding of the Jedi council in the outer rim ... possible set ... well plenty of possiblies out there. with the enjoyment of the current system of level, power gain, item customization, character growth etc. And again it was a wishful thinking.

... ... ... uhmmm ... sorry you wouldn't want to see it online. I guess everyone has there individual tastes and I can respect that. As far as not even knowing if there is gonna be another one, you apparently missed the point of the thread. This is wishful thinking on my behalf. They probably never will develop a KoTOR:Online. (Though the potential for fun in my opinion is massive) What relevance does that have to them making or not making KoTOR III? My biggest dissapointment in both was the game time ... they are far too short ... I beat them both in about 3 days each. The greatest joy for me was earning the right to use a LS and you are halfway through the game before you get to enjoy using one. An online game set in the KoTOR setting has the potential for all the qualities that made the series fun, and all the enjoyment of ongoing play and community offered in an MMO ... but it's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Yes - SWG is crap and going down hill fast. It is not what it started out as, or promised to be. However, that is not the reason I think this is a good idea mind you. I even if SWG was living up to its potential I still think the world of KoTOR is prime for a MMORPG. I didn't realize that SOE had sole rights to multi-player Star Wars content, if that is the case that is a tragedy for the entire community. Perhaps if developed for the Xbox only it would provide an outlet outside of SOE's agreement since it would be something they could not do. But I am no lawyer, and glad of it. Then again, I always thought the idea was a "wow wouldn't that just be insane" ... and not a "wow they are gonna do it" ... so I guess that the accountants at SOE are happy. As long as they hold a monopoly on the multi-player Star Wars universe ... we all get to suffer.