Jedi Structure

[munkyking]

When padawans speak to their mentors the term "master" is always used. Is this simply a term of respect or is it an observation of rank? In other words, is your garden variety Jedi Knight capable of having a padawan or must they actually be Jedi Masters?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

When padawans speak to their mentors the term "master" is always used. Is this simply a term of respect or is it an observation of rank? In other words, is your garden variety Jedi Knight capable of having a padawan or must they actually be Jedi Masters?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's like the squire/knight relationship.

 

Master is used like it would be for a sensai.

[Darth Flatus]

term of respect - master and apprentice/padawan.

 

e.g.

 

Master: Mind your feelings padawan

Padawan: Yes master

 

don't confuse class and rank

[Saberist]

The key to differentiating 'respect' from snobbery is that -at some point- (in Western cultures) you would be given permission to use the working title if not the name of the person as a functional courtesy followed by a deeper bond of friendship or 'mutualism' in respect.

 

Assuming you stay medieval in your name associations there are still a LOT of alternatives to the 'squire and knight' concept. As I recall, the Norman and Saxon systems went something like:

 

Norman Anglo Saxon Contemporary

Sergens Dunno Sergeant or literally 'servant'. A man at arms.

Vasseyur Vassal Squire

Miles Theign/House Carl Knight.

Baron Sheriff Captain Of Knights.

Comes Dunno Roughly a Local Territorial Mayor or Supervisor

Dux Eorl Lord

 

What makes the above system both elegant and complex is that it reflects ownership. Not of an individual but of his -service- through land parcelling. Most people think that a Lord's property was entirely inherited or won through conquest and thus simply set by a series of boundary markers on a map or stones on a hill. This is not so as European land has been 'competitively prized' for a LONG time and the only way that the higher royalty (princes, kings, emperors) could maintain control was by awarding 'honors' of land grant.

 

Total agro and tax output of the Lord's fief is still HIS responsibility to the King but obviously, if your central enclave ('caput' is actually the old Latin for capital) is separated by /miles/ from little allocations of land holdings, you need an intermediate level of management. Given that times were NOT safe and the natives were NOT friendly, this translated into being the Kings Land Agent and Tax Collector (literally 'relief' of rents) and as such, you needed to have both a standing force of knights around you to act like big, loyal, MEAN dogs. And a further means of local intelligence gathering and delegation of responsibility by whose guarantee of an 'honorable retirement' (past combat age) you could keep the commoners (Serfs, Villeins and Cottars) under-thumb.

 

This dual need then led to the system of lesser ranks in turn for 'fiefed' (in fee) obligations of equipped soldiers in times of trouble. At the lowest per capita level of topheavy ranking. This later came back to bite several later Kings of England in the nether regions as the obvious weight of martial and taxable income support was often with the lower aristocracy and such could result in embarrassing instances of 'backwater diplomacy' forcing the issue on things like the Magna Carta.

 

Socially, it allowed you to refer to a man as 'Lord' and yet /know him/ as a Duke (respect for real power). Without getting your honor trodden on using the whole 'master' thing. Only commoners had 'masters' because only they, excepting the Freeman, were specifically a piece of property owned by the land or by the type of work they did on it.

 

Given that the SWU uses terms like 'Knights' so frivolously and grants 'The Order' power and wealth fit to make a Templar jealous, it would have been /vastly/ more interesting, IMO, if the Jedi Society was indeed based on a feudal system of psionic gifted 'families' controlling local star clusters as a function of being the most flexible and simple method of command government structure there is. Indeed, before the Republic itself formed, I would bet that that is exactly 'the way it was' (controlling bloodlines if nothing else).

 

Such lack of depth and 'universal blase' attitudes about the root meanings of words is what irks me about much of the movie OT/PT Jedi methods of address, in that there is no graduated levelling of rank as an _incentive system_ when Jedi training ends and field service grants the experience necessary to start giving priveleges rather than merely always making demands.

 

In _We Were Soldiers Once_ Colonel Hal Moore ALWAYS calls his functioning second in command 'Sergeant Major' in front of other ranks. But alone or in combat situations, he is not too proud to use the man's name. Plumley I think it was. And he equally made it clear that this was 'his man' and answerable only to himself. So that there would never be a case of his voice being heard from a Sergeants mouth as being 'in conflict' with say a Major or Captain. What the Sgt. Major says, goes. Because the Colonel would say it if he was there.

 

THAT is _respect_.

 

To paraphrase another famous movie quote: 'Though it doesn't mean we're taking long hot showers together' there is nothing more "Wow! I made it!" special than when your senior /teacher/ invites you to address him as an equal. Because you've earned it. No matter what your 'rank'.

 

In the East, such differentiation of capability in service from vocational 'mastery' superiority of teaching rank is less well defined IMO, and it tends to create artificial barriers that particularly combat soldiers cannot live with for very long.

 

In the field, the command necessities and dangers of acknowledged rank must be observed at all times (snipers and the need for a defined chain of command etc.). But the artificial formalities tend to fade fast if it's a tight unit. It's a matter of trust, really.

 

As such, the JK system of Apprentice, Charge, Journeyman, Knight, Master, Lord sounds vastly more appropriate as -personal- markers of 'enlightenment'. Than the 'padawan/knight/prestige classes' they invented as some kind of mixed useage system for BOTH the achieved progress you have made. AND the rank which you have been given as a function of that accomplishment.

 

In the best militaries and particularly special ops, capability not age or resume` commands. Seniority, and titles then just tend to be distractions that people pay lip service too only to 'get along' with the REMFers.

 

 

Saberist Out.

[SW fan]

i have an idea lets solve it all and call george luvas no wait i lost his number in all the bullSh*t u guys are sayin

[Invoker]

Great and informative post, Saberist. BUT: Trying to implant Logic in the SW Universe is like looking for a snowball in hell.

[213374U]

Any Jedi above the rank of padawan is apparently addressed as "master" by others of the same or inferior rank. Anakin Skywalker is often referred to as "master Skywalker" by other Jedi (some of them masters themselves) after reaching knighthood and despite not having any padawans under his wing.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Bhat C3PO calls everywhone mastarh?!?!101010

[213374U]

Because anyone is more Jedi than C3PO.

[Topaz Quasar]

"Master" is often used to address Jedi. Just as "Lord" is used to address Sith.

[anakins revenge]

this thread isnt getting anywhere.

why doesnt someone who knos list and give descriptions of the best looking rank system for jedi?

[><FISH'>]

The key to differentiating 'respect' from snobbery is that -at some point- (in Western cultures) you would be given permission to use the working title if not the name of the person as a functional courtesy followed by a deeper bond of friendship or 'mutualism' in respect.

 

Assuming you stay medieval in your name associations there are still a LOT of alternatives to the 'squire and knight' concept.  As I recall, the Norman and Saxon systems went something like:

 

Norman    Anglo Saxon      Contemporary

Sergens    Dunno                Sergeant or literally 'servant'.  A man at arms.

Vasseyur  Vassal              Squire

Miles        Theign/House Carl  Knight.

Baron      Sheriff                Captain Of Knights.

Comes    Dunno                Roughly a Local Territorial Mayor or Supervisor

Dux          Eorl                    Lord

 

What makes the above system both elegant and complex is that it reflects ownership.  Not of an individual but of his -service- through land parcelling.  Most people think that a Lord's property was entirely inherited or won through conquest and thus simply set by a series of boundary markers on a map or stones on a hill.  This is not so as European land has been 'competitively prized' for a LONG time and the only way that the higher royalty (princes, kings, emperors) could maintain control was by awarding 'honors' of land grant.

 

Total agro and tax output of the Lord's fief is still HIS responsibility to the King but obviously, if your central enclave ('caput' is actually the old Latin for capital) is separated by /miles/ from little allocations of land holdings, you need an intermediate level of management.  Given that times were NOT safe and the natives were NOT friendly, this translated into being the Kings Land Agent and Tax Collector (literally 'relief' of rents) and as such, you needed to have both a standing force of knights around you to act like big, loyal, MEAN dogs.  And a further means of local intelligence gathering and delegation of responsibility by whose guarantee of an 'honorable retirement' (past combat age) you could keep the commoners (Serfs, Villeins and Cottars) under-thumb.

 

This dual need then led to the system of lesser ranks in turn for 'fiefed' (in fee) obligations of equipped soldiers in times of trouble.  At the lowest per capita level of topheavy ranking.  This later came back to bite several later Kings of England in the nether regions as the obvious weight of martial and taxable income support was often with the lower aristocracy and such could result in embarrassing instances of 'backwater diplomacy' forcing the issue on things like the Magna Carta.

 

Socially, it allowed you to refer to a man as 'Lord' and yet /know him/ as a Duke (respect for real power).  Without getting your honor trodden on using the whole 'master' thing.  Only commoners had 'masters' because only they, excepting the Freeman, were specifically a piece of property owned by the land or by the type of work they did on it.

 

Given that the SWU uses terms like 'Knights' so frivolously and grants 'The Order' power and wealth fit to make a Templar jealous, it would have been /vastly/ more interesting, IMO, if the Jedi Society was indeed based on a feudal system of psionic gifted 'families' controlling local star clusters as a function of being the most flexible and simple method of command government structure there is.  Indeed, before the Republic itself formed, I would bet that that is exactly 'the way it was' (controlling bloodlines if nothing else).

 

Such lack of depth and 'universal blase' attitudes about the root meanings of words is what irks me about much of the movie OT/PT Jedi methods of address, in that there is no graduated levelling of rank as an _incentive system_ when Jedi training ends and field service grants the experience necessary to start giving priveleges rather than merely always making demands.

 

In _We Were Soldiers Once_ Colonel Hal Moore ALWAYS calls his functioning second in command 'Sergeant Major' in front of other ranks.  But alone or in combat situations, he is not too proud to use the man's name.  Plumley I think it was.  And he equally made it clear that this was 'his man' and answerable only to himself.  So that there would never be a case of his voice being heard from a Sergeants mouth as being 'in conflict' with say a Major or Captain.  What the Sgt. Major says, goes.  Because the Colonel would say it if he was there.

 

THAT is _respect_.

 

To paraphrase another famous movie quote: 'Though it doesn't mean we're taking long hot showers together' there is nothing more "Wow!  I made it!" special than when your senior /teacher/ invites you to address him as an equal.  Because you've earned it.  No matter what your 'rank'.

 

In the East, such differentiation of capability in service from vocational 'mastery' superiority of teaching rank is less well defined IMO, and it tends to create artificial barriers that particularly combat soldiers cannot live with for very long.

 

In the field, the command necessities and dangers of acknowledged rank must be observed at all times (snipers and the need for a defined chain of command etc.).  But the artificial formalities tend to fade fast if it's a tight unit.  It's a matter of trust, really.

 

As such, the JK system of Apprentice, Charge, Journeyman, Knight, Master, Lord sounds vastly more appropriate as -personal- markers of 'enlightenment'.  Than the 'padawan/knight/prestige classes' they invented as some kind of mixed useage system for BOTH the achieved progress you have made.  AND the rank which you have been given as a function of that accomplishment.

 

In the best militaries and particularly special ops, capability not age or resume` commands.  Seniority, and titles then just tend to be distractions that people pay lip service too only to 'get along' with the REMFers.

 

 

Saberist Out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

feckin hell!!!

 

who actually read all of this?

[The Great Phantom]

The rank system of the Jedi changed over time, but here is what I have gathered from the Kotor II timeline, and what the current ranks MAY have been in the Jedi Civil War:

 

'Potential' (for lack of a better word): Discovered to be FS, inducted into the Jedi

Padawan: Trainee; could be subservient to a Master(s), or just hasn't yet passed the Trials

 

Knight: Passed the Trials, may still serve a Master (usually they serve the Council). I assume that they may also teach

 

Master: Usually aged Jedi; They have left 'Active' status, and spend most of their time contemplating and discussing, as well as teaching. Can be found in a 'local council' on pretty much any given world where Jedi are located

 

Council: Members of the Head Council. They're basically Masters, only it is they that lead the entire group of Jedi.

 

So, the chain of command MAY go something like this:

 

The Council decides to forbid (or at the very least discourage) love.

 

They send the message to the other Masters on the 'local councils' of various worlds

 

The Masters inform the local Knights, who in turn probably tell their Apprentices...

 

Note: Age doesn't determine rank, yet. I'm assuming that was a later addition.

 

That is all I have gathered (or all I can remember from what I gathered a year or so ago). Feel free to correct or elaborate, so long as you can provide evidence.

[Darth Flatus]

Was qui gonn a jedi master? i ask because there was mention of him turning down or being refused a seat on the council - which would lead me to believe that he must be at least a master in rank to be in contention for a seat on the council.

 

If he was a master then he was a master who travelled the galaxy and so was still on active duty.

[DeathScepter]

Qui Gon Is a Jedi Master.

 

IT doesnt mean he has to be a council member to be one.

[Topaz Quasar]

In some instances a Jedi Knight can be on the council, in the cases of Ki-Adi-Mundi & Anakin Skywalker.

[The Great Phantom]

My rank system was for Kotor, the Trilogies took place thousands of years later (after the 'destruction' and 'rebuilding' of the Republic when the cowards that called themselves Sith 'vanished').

 

Qui-Gon was a Master, as was Ki-Adi-Mundi, wasn't he? And where does it say Anakin was on the council? He was much too impulsive, even in AOTC.

[Darth Flatus]

Anakin is granted a seat on the council in Ep3 i think at palpy's request. but he is not made a master leading to more whining from anakin

[The Great Phantom]

Oh, if it was at Palpy's request, then it's not official, is it? Palpy wanted a buddy behind the scenes, and that's what he got. I doubt Anny would have even thought of being on the council without Palp's recommendation...

[SW fan]

citizen

FS

padawan

jedi

jedi knight

jedi master

master jedi

grand master jedi (can only be ranked that high when the jedi unite)

[213374U]

Oh, if it was at Palpy's request, then it's not official, is it? Palpy wanted a buddy behind the scenes, and that's what he got. I doubt Anny would have even thought of being on the council without Palp's recommendation...

Ki-Adi-Mundi was a knight too when he was accepted into the council.

[Darth Flatus]

grand master jedi (can only be ranked that high when the jedi unite)

 

Is that like some kind of transformer thing? where the jedi all physically join up to become:

 

Jedimus Maximus or Ultimax Jeditron etc

[213374U]

grand master jedi (can only be ranked that high when the jedi unite)

 

Is that like some kind of transformer thing? where the jedi all physically join up to become:

 

Jedimus Maximus or Ultimax Jeditron etc

No, it's more like

 

 

"By your powers combined, I am Grand Master Jedi!"

 

[The Great Phantom]

Classic...

 

Well, I see a future of much spamming... And so, the nomads move on, to find another thread to use. :ph34r: