Bioware > Obsidian

[Dolphin]

K, I just finished the PC version and I had to vent my frustration at this game.

 

When I first started playing, I was quite pleased with the additions made to the game since KoToR. Epic levels, w00t. Prestige classes, yay. Longer gameplay, slick. Better item creation, awesome.

 

It occured to me, though, that had Bioware kept this title, they likely would have done the same things. I mean, it's a sequel, people expect more. It's still Bioware's engine, so it was really a simple thing to add these small features. So, given that, I did not award any points to Obsidian for these minor additions.

 

What REALLY put me out about this game, though, was the story. Quite frankly, it sucked. Bad. I remember playing KoToR through numerous times just because the story was so enthralling. I finished KoToR2 and I just have no desire to replay it. The plot in this thing was so vague and so incohesive it just gives you a feeling of, "Um........K" once you're finally done. Wether you go LS or DS seemed totally inconsequential to the "plot" where as it was a considerable difference in KoToR1. It felt like you were just being forced along with nothing much to do other than to kick ass on one world, move on, kick ass on another world, move on. KoToR1 at least had some more substance to it aside from your typical dungeon hack.

 

If there are plans for a #3 in the works, then I implore Obsidian to hire better writers. If not then please turn it back over to Bioware, who can obviously tell a better story.

[Dolphin]

BAH! Sorry for the thread spam. Let the other ones die.

 

The board was generating an error message everytime I tried to post, and yet, it still posted.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Funny I felt the first one wasnt worth replaying because everything about it was so obvious.

[Nur Ab Sal]

First KOTOR was pathetic clone of Neverwinter Nights storyline.

[Felix]

Hahaha, the first one gave me no wish to replay, however Im already on my second playthrough in KOTOR2, we all know the ending sucks major balls because of the cuttings, but the story still looks more...."interresting" than the one from KOTOR1, maybe because we have an incomplete game, lol (Maybe because the story isnt so obvious has the KOTOR1 was)

[Baley]

Kotor I had a decent story but it was hardly at TSL's level

[Dolphin]

While I agree the story to #1 seemed somewhat cliche, it still felt very epic and I felt much more attatched to the characters.

 

It just seemed in #2 that they failed their attempt at suspense. They keep you in the dark about whats going on, and by the time you finish the game, you're not much wiser. It's like Obsidian wanted to be oh-so jedi-like mysterious, but failed miserably.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It just seemed in #2 that they failed their attempt at suspense.  They keep you in the dark about whats going on, and by the time you finish the game, you're not much wiser.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well KOTOR pretty much spoonfed you.Gain a level have a bit more of the story. The deeper elements of KOTOR II are tied up in the talking to characters and unlocking the influence options.

Depending on who you talk to ,you will get a slightly different take on the story. One of the most interesting characters Hanharr only becomes interesting if you take the time to get to know him.. But that applies to everyone. High enough influence with Bao Dur will unlock the big mystery of what happened at Malachor V for example.

 

I would suggest replaying it just too see what new insights you get. Different gender alignment get different NPC's for example.

[Ivan the Terrible]

KOTOR II had a lot of flaws, no doubt.

 

But I always feel the urge to ridicule anyone who showers praise on KOTOR's storyline, or Bioware's storytelling. If I saw a movie plot handled with the clumsiness of KOTOR, I'd think it was one of the sloppiest scripts of the year, without a doubt.

 

I think the praise people have for KOTOR says a lot less about the game itself and a lot more about the relative quality of the competition.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Ive said it once and Ill say it again, KoTOR is babyfood compared to TSL.

[Darth Ricmu]

Why is it seeming to be that you blame OE for this crapped up game.........

 

LUCASARTS gave them less then a year to make this sequell..... logical that its not that great.............and that most has been cut...................

 

 

Lucasarts needed to get it out before christmas.........

[Tsel]

Funny I felt the first one wasnt worth replaying because everything about it was so obvious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I felt the same way.

 

I

[FaramirK]

Sorry, I disagree. I think that the writers are NOT the problem here.

[Darth Jebus]

I don't know if anyone on here is as dumb as me to do this, but try playing through K1 and K2 at the same time. You get a good side-by-side comparison.

 

When you do that, you really SEE both games for what they are.

 

In doing this, I must say that for me...it's finally settled. K1 is without a doubt, the superior game. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN I DIDN'T ENJOY THE HELL OUT OF K2. Because I did. Heck, I wouldn't have played through K2 as many times as I have if I didn't like it and enjoy it.

 

But K1 was just Star Wars. Everything about it. The music, the characters, the FEEL of it...everything....it was Star Wars. And not the New Age George Lucas, Jar Jar Binks and Special Edition Star Wars. But the Star Wars that we all know and love. The Star Wars that people in my generation grew up to. It was Star Wars the way that it was meant to be. And that's what made that game work.

 

K2 on the other hand was not. K2 was trying way to hard. And also, playing Torment for the first time, I can see what OE was trying to do with it. It's one thing to try to have a darker tone and try something new, but it's another thing to take the material and remove it out of it's context, so that you have a project that's much more suitable as a stand-alone original work, rather than a Star Wars product.

 

That's why I've said I can't wait to see what OE is really capable of doing. I'd like to see them do their own projects and steer clear of a possible K3. I want to see them do their own things. If they did that, then I would be geeked to see what they are truly capable of producing.

 

Yes, K2 had a deeper story that made you think about morals and what a Jedi and Sith really are when you strip away the Force and leave only the person there. The writers posed some really interesting questions that worked really well for an RPG. But, my whole thing was, the linear storyline of K1 FIT PERFECTLY WITH STAR WARS.

 

Guys (and gals), name a single, solitary thing that was deep and complex about the original trilogy.

 

Not a thing.

 

It was about as Saturday morning cliche as you can get. And that's why they are still celebrated today. Now compare them to the prequels. Where Lucas introduced all of this convoluted political talk and midichlorians and the Chosen One, and the taxation of trade routes and blah, blah, blah....

 

See a pattern here?

 

Less is more. Something that K2 was sorely lacking.

[jaguars4ever]

Why is it seeming to be that you blame OE for this crapped up game.........

 

LUCASARTS gave them less then a year to make this sequell..... logical that its not that great.............and that most has been cut...................

 

 

Lucasarts needed to get it out before christmas.........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"To greed, all nature is insufficient."

[Sepp]

KotOR I story idea is not so extraordinary. There's the bad guy with the superweapon - kill him and snatch the thing for your own use or kill him and dispatch of the superweapon as well. The added twists like the

You're Revan!

"revelation" and the pretty decent way the story is actually TOLD make it stand out somewhat.

 

The KotOR II story idea is vastly more original and thus more interesting and... "better" in my eyes (and not only because I've seen more than my share of superweapons in Star Wars) - it absolutely hasn't been done before in all of Star Wars (well, to my knowledge anyway).

 

 

Kill the Force?

What the heck?

Walking wounds in the Force?

And so on. The way the story is told in-game is worse than in KotOR I, however - it is not "fleshed out" enough. =/

 

 

I don't think there were all these kiddies going WHOA I JUST BEAT THE GAME - Now somebody please tell me what it was all about??? after KotORI. KotORII tells a more "difficult" story and it's not like it can't be understood but there's much that can be missed and well, ... I don't like LucasArts either for the release dates fun. Oh well.

[Dolphin]

I understood the story just fine, I just though it was stupid. It was trying so hard to be intelligent that it just fizzled into cheesiness. I agree though, had they the time to refine the story alot more, it could have turned out alot better. It just seemed very slapped-together to me.

 

Darth Jebus voiced my gripes about the story better than I did. I much agree, it just didn't feel like Star Wars.

[EUIX]

I like to introduce you to a game called Neverwinter Nights then see if you still hold the same opinion on plot.

 

The problem with KOTOR 2 was the plot was all hidden in small little tidbits and bits of dialogue that most people would not get unless through their first time through the game. Since you need to max out influence to get the full background this often left the vast majority of the plot missing.

[absinthewfaust]

kotor1 to me felt way more epic. the plot twist blew me away. i played through the game 3 times in a row.

 

kotor2.. i didn't feel near as attached to the characters.. example being that 'goto' sat and rotted away in my party screen/ in the ship. i didn't use him once. but to each their own, i've seen people that swear by goto and want to have his babies.

 

i felt robbed at the end of kotor2. not like empire strikes back either.

 

i really don't know what to think of the presumed kotor3. at one point obsidian stated they have a guy working with lucas arts on another title. (said by mr. ceo when he addressed the 'great incomplete and unfinished' article at gamespot.)

 

they also state that the new project is not 'a bioware engine and not a sequel.' (written at these forums in one of the many over abundance of kotor3 speculation threads. do a damn search if you need proof.)

 

at this point i really don't give a rip if they do part 3 or not. even if obsidian doesn't develop it, lucas arts WILL BE the publisher, and they are just as much to blame with the great debacle known as kotor2 as obsidian is.

 

yes i played through nwn and its expansions, anyway..

[213374U]

I much agree, it just didn't feel like Star Wars.

Even though I don't think the storytelling is sloppy, I must agree with the former statement. K2, while a great game, doesn't feel as SW as it should. Perhaps it's the focus on morality in a setting in which good and evil should be well defined, perhaps it's the lack of SW-ish locations or the twisting of the present (and K1's!) plot to reflect some hidden "True Sith" conspiracy.

 

I think it's been proven that OE could rewrite the CRPG book given enough time and freedom to work in their own projects, and I really hope they get the chance to do it, but K2's is not the best example of a typical SW plot.

[Yst]

Basically, all I can do is agree with the majority of respondents.

 

The first one was a good story, and a good RPG, but it was a very straightforward one in many ways. Even the great "twist" was about as incredibly formulaic as a twist could be. While the core story was engaging, it left little to the imagination, and when its story was unfolded, there was little left to inspire the player on multiple playthroughs. I found quite the opposite was the case with KotOR II. The story is full of a sense of one's character's engagement in a much larger universe, filled with additional depth and meaning. This is not simply a matter of things being left out and references being made to them, but held out of reach. It's a narrative device. KotOR II created, for me, what felt like a wider universe in which my character was a player. KotOR felt more claustrophobically centred around the set path which my character was compelled to follow. Consequently, I did not replay the first, while I have indeed replayed the second immediately. For some reason, KotOR just feels like the RPG equivalent of a rail shooter, for me. KotOR II's more vivid storytelling helped alleviate that narrative claustrophobia, in my play.

[RoadReaction]

What are you fool's talking about? Everyone knows obsidian ****ed up on Kotor 2, all i like is the new options and abilities and such. The KOTOR 1 storyline was awesome and it isnt obvious as someone sad it was before. Bioware should get rights obsidian is a younger company that hasnt enough expirence to do a good enought job IMO. However NWN is so much better than Morrowind. But i believe Oblivion will be good.

[Irien]

KotOR II's more vivid storytelling helped alleviate that narrative claustrophobia, in my play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well said, Yst.

 

Here's the real issue: you couldn't play through the original KOTOR without being slapped upside the head with the plot. It was obvious, it was there, and it was going to progress whether you liked it or not. KOTOR 2, on the other hand, requires a bit of effort on the player's part to piece together what is, honestly, a really ingenious interweaving of plot, theme, and gameplay. I thought some of it was heavy-handed in parts, but clearly I was wrong. There's evidence enough on these boards that plenty of people got to Malachor V without having any idea whatsoever why they would want to be there, what the hell was going on with the Mass Shadow Generator, or why they should care.

 

The central theme of actions and echoes (reflected in snippets of force philosophy, individual character backstories, the influence system, the arch plot, etc) was not only inspired, but done really, really well. Right up 'til the end, when suddenly it wasn't.

 

It's unfortunate that the end is what people tend to remember. Tack on a good one, and suddenly TSL kicks KOTOR 1's ass.

[Dolphin]

However NWN is so much better than Morrowind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gotta disagree with you on that point.

I liked both those games, but Morrowind went alot further to ensure people had as close to a true RPG experience as was possible for the time. The amount of attention devoted to the smallest things in Morrowind was astounding. They truly provided you as close to free reign as they could.

 

NWN was far more linear and scripted. It still had a good plot, and good gameplay, but it didn't allow you anywhere near the same amount of freedoms as Morrowind did. A plus for NWN was it's multiplayer ability though.

[dewaybe2678]

KotOR II's more vivid storytelling helped alleviate that narrative claustrophobia, in my play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well said, Yst.

 

Here's the real issue: you couldn't play through the original KOTOR without being slapped upside the head with the plot. It was obvious, it was there, and it was going to progress whether you liked it or not. KOTOR 2, on the other hand, requires a bit of effort on the player's part to piece together what is, honestly, a really ingenious interweaving of plot, theme, and gameplay. I thought some of it was heavy-handed in parts, but clearly I was wrong. There's evidence enough on these boards that plenty of people got to Malachor V without having any idea whatsoever why they would want to be there, what the hell was going on with the Mass Shadow Generator, or why they should care.

 

The central theme of actions and echoes (reflected in snippets of force philosophy, individual character backstories, the influence system, the arch plot, etc) was not only inspired, but done really, really well. Right up 'til the end, when suddenly it wasn't.

 

It's unfortunate that the end is what people tend to remember. Tack on a good one, and suddenly TSL kicks KOTOR 1's ass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i personally thought was on par with kotor sides the bugs and the plotholes aka the ending, etc. it was excellent i just Revan is a better character then the exile.