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I'm impressed you actually implied that KOTOR 2's story is predictable and shallow...wow you must have been able to really anticipate:

 

- The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL the first time through by maxing out the influence system.

 

The backstories of NPC in your group, have nothing to do with the main plotline/Storyarc of KotOR II.

 

- How you got to Peragus mining facility and why

 

Insignificant event in the main plot.

 

- You must have predicted all to well that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again

 

Yes, this I *Knew* before entering the re-build academy.

 

- that you were going to end up on malachor v halfway through the game

 

Yes, every dialogue with kreia seemed to point there..

 

-Kreia manipulating you during the whole game for her own ends.

 

This was obvious from the first few talks you had with her when escaping Peragus.

 

Dont call it shallow...because everyone in this forum liking it or not, knows it isnt. That's why people were wondering what happened when they got to Malachor V the first time through

 

I call it as I see it.

 

Know, that not everyone sees the things as you do.

you liked it, fine, I didn't.

 

Deal with it....

I have.

 

 

bit of a ****, really

 

and you obviously dont understand kotor 1 or 2 at all..

 

i know the whole plot inside out, and thats why i love the kotor1/2 story, cus its brilliant.

 

your npc's stories are tied into the main plot greatly, just cus u havent botherd to explore with them all, you'll probably turn round and say 'what!?!? bao dur can be a jedi???' :(

 

as for how u eneded up on peragus, thats a big part of the plot, like how did the ebon hawk and t3 end up there? again, your just missing the bigger picture

 

Yes, this I *Knew* before entering the re-build academy.

 

yeah, i bet you did mate :devil:

 

your entitled to your own opinion of course, but dont lie to enforce your view, and dont talk about stuff you dont understand (like the kotor plot) :p

'I did it all for the wookies'

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I'm impressed you actually implied that KOTOR 2's story is predictable and shallow...wow you must have been able to really anticipate:

 

- The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL the first time through by maxing out the influence system.

 

The backstories of NPC in your group, have nothing to do with the main plotline/Storyarc of KotOR II.

 

- How you got to Peragus mining facility and why

 

Insignificant event in the main plot.

 

- You must have predicted all to well that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again

 

Yes, this I *Knew* before entering the re-build academy.

 

- that you were going to end up on malachor v halfway through the game

 

Yes, every dialogue with kreia seemed to point there..

 

-Kreia manipulating you during the whole game for her own ends.

 

This was obvious from the first few talks you had with her when escaping Peragus.

 

Dont call it shallow...because everyone in this forum liking it or not, knows it isnt. That's why people were wondering what happened when they got to Malachor V the first time through

 

I call it as I see it.

 

Know, that not everyone sees the things as you do.

you liked it, fine, I didn't.

 

Deal with it....

I have.

 

 

bit of a ****, really

 

and you obviously dont understand kotor 1 or 2 at all..

 

i know the whole plot inside out, and thats why i love the kotor1/2 story, cus its brilliant.

 

your npc's stories are tied into the main plot greatly, just cus u havent botherd to explore with them all, you'll probably turn round and say 'what!?!? bao dur can be a jedi???' :(

 

as for how u eneded up on peragus, thats a big part of the plot, like how did the ebon hawk and t3 end up there? again, your just missing the bigger picture

 

Yes, this I *Knew* before entering the re-build academy.

 

yeah, i bet you did mate :devil:

 

your entitled to your own opinion of course, but dont lie to enforce your view, and dont talk about stuff you dont understand (like the kotor plot) :p

 

 

I couldn't agree more with the points you made ;)

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KOTOR2 tries too ahrd to be like PST and it fails miserably doing so. KOTOR2 is still a solid game; but it is not a really memorable one. Though; KOTOR1 isn't much better, imo. I ahven't replayed either one as neither one makes me wnat to replay it. They're simply not good enough. And, neither one is as deep as people claim. KOTOR2'S main villain is as shallow as they come. And, don't try arguing it here as I don't waant to spoil things; but this being only feels one emotion - you can't get more shallow than that. Period.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Bioware better than Obsidian?  Hell freaking no.  Every Bioware game that has come out has been a predictable piece and very shallow and poor writing, very much unlike Obsidian and former BIS games.

 

 

Funny, sence this is how I would describe the storyline of KotOR II:TSL.

 

And lets face it, If KotOR's Storyline was a copy from NWN OC then KotOR II is the bastard child of PS:T.

 

I'm impressed you actually implied that KOTOR 2's story is predictable and shallow...wow you must have been able to really anticipate:

 

- The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL the first time through by maxing out the influence system.

- How you got to Peragus mining facility and why

- You must have predicted all to well that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again

- that you were going to end up on malachor v halfway through the game

-Kreia manipulating you during the whole game for her own ends.

 

Dont call it shallow...because everyone in this forum liking it or not, knows it isnt. That's why people were wondering what happened when they got to Malachor V the first time through

 

Hmm.

 

I hate to break it to you, but:

- The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL I found tedious. I DIDN'T -- and DON'T -- CARE about them, THEY'RE (mostly) BORING.

- I found out how I got to the Peragus mining facility and why, by the first planet of my first play-through of the game.

- I didn't predict that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again, but this plot device is totally destroyed by the fact that whether you are LS or DS, male/female and whatever dialogue option you choose and whatever choices you make in the cave, you still have the same narrow plot progression at this juncture.

- I did suspect that I would end up on Malachor V halfway through the game; and

- I definitely suspected Kreia was attempting to manipulate my character from the moment she woke up. (Check out some of the posts we were all discussing on the LucasArts KotOR 2 boards back before the US Xbox release date, if you require proof.)

 

 

Quite frankly, as a few have already said, there were some good points (game engine enhancements; more realistic morals resulting in murkier LS/DS effects) and some bad points to 2. My main issues with 2 are:

- it wasn't finished, riddled with bugs and ommissions

- the end was confusing not because I had failed to follow sub-plots, but because so much of it was missing and obviously forced

- it wasn't (more) fun to be a (different) character

- the beginning was ponderous to the point of turning me off (so linear and long-winded).

 

It doesn't matter if the story is novel; there is nothing new under the sun -- it's all been written before. I have to be entertained, to feel empathy with the characters -- feel their hurt and want to help them win. I didn't feel that. It felt formulaic. It annoyed me. The plot and direction needed a few more months' work, each; which would have given the testers time to get the bugs out, hopefully.

 

NwN OC is okay -- I think the HoU expansion is best (the second expansion, SoU module, really was woeful) ... I must say, though that the community of developers have created some cracking good modules which put the OC and KotOR 2 to shame.

OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS

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OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT

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"The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL the first time through by maxing out the influence system."

 

And? That doens't make it deep.

 

 

"- How you got to Peragus mining facility and why"

 

You should know that before the game start sicne your character supposedly doesn't have amnesia yet thd devs play games with you just for kicks. Anywayds, the reason is because the game starts there.

 

"- You must have predicted all to well that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again"

 

Sure did. It was obvious to anyone since the Jedi Council banished you once; of coutse they'll do it again espicially when you tell them what's up. I was hoping for an out; but alas; no go.

 

 

"- that you were going to end up on malachor v halfway through the game"

 

From the first time it was mentioned pretty much., malaichor V was too important to not have the PC go there. Afterall, that's where the PC has his big broo haa and where the Big Secret tm. took place.

 

 

"-Kreia manipulating you during the whole game for her own ends."

 

You joking right? I knew Kreia was the moment she pretended to be dead the first time you saw her "dead". Hahah. Talk about obvious manipulation. :p

 

 

Hades: "Every Bioware game that has come out has been a predictable piece and very shallow and poor writing, very much unlike Obsidian and former BIS games."

 

yet, you rate BIo agmes rather highly including 75% for the OC and nearly 90% for KOTOR1 and you are someone who claims that story is the only thing that matter. Haha.

 

Not to mention, have you played the IWD series? Those are BIS games and are more shallow than *any* of BIO's RPG's this side of TOSC and SOU.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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I find myself falling asleep watching Star Wars nowadays.

Yes, but when I manage to stay awake, I find that I'm cringing. :thumbsup:

 

-----

 

Hades: "Every Bioware game that has come out has been a predictable piece and very shallow and poor writing, very much unlike Obsidian and former BIS games."

 

yet, you rate BIo agmes rather highly including 75% for the OC and nearly 90% for KOTOR1 and you are someone who claims that story is the only thing that matter. Haha.

 

Not to mention, have you played the IWD series? Those are BIS games and are more shallow than *any* of BIO's RPG's this side of TOSC and SOU.

I think he means BIS *RPG's* - not some random hack n' slash bonanza! :lol:

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Bioware better than Obsidian?  Hell freaking no.  Every Bioware game that has come out has been a predictable piece and very shallow and poor writing, very much unlike Obsidian and former BIS games.

 

 

Funny, sence this is how I would describe the storyline of KotOR II:TSL.

 

And lets face it, If KotOR's Storyline was a copy from NWN OC then KotOR II is the bastard child of PS:T.

 

I'm impressed you actually implied that KOTOR 2's story is predictable and shallow...wow you must have been able to really anticipate:

 

- The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL the first time through by maxing out the influence system.

- How you got to Peragus mining facility and why

- You must have predicted all to well that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again

- that you were going to end up on malachor v halfway through the game

-Kreia manipulating you during the whole game for her own ends.

 

Dont call it shallow...because everyone in this forum liking it or not, knows it isnt. That's why people were wondering what happened when they got to Malachor V the first time through

 

Hmm.

 

I hate to break it to you, but:

- The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL I found tedious. I DIDN'T -- and DON'T -- CARE about them, THEY'RE (mostly) BORING.

- I found out how I got to the Peragus mining facility and why, by the first planet of my first play-through of the game.

- I didn't predict that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again, but this plot device is totally destroyed by the fact that whether you are LS or DS, male/female and whatever dialogue option you choose and whatever choices you make in the cave, you still have the same narrow plot progression at this juncture.

- I did suspect that I would end up on Malachor V halfway through the game; and

- I definitely suspected Kreia was attempting to manipulate my character from the moment she woke up. (Check out some of the posts we were all discussing on the LucasArts KotOR 2 boards back before the US Xbox release date, if you require proof.)

 

 

Quite frankly, as a few have already said, there were some good points (game engine enhancements; more realistic morals resulting in murkier LS/DS effects) and some bad points to 2. My main issues with 2 are:

- it wasn't finished, riddled with bugs and ommissions

- the end was confusing not because I had failed to follow sub-plots, but because so much of it was missing and obviously forced

- it wasn't (more) fun to be a (different) character

- the beginning was ponderous to the point of turning me off (so linear and long-winded).

 

It doesn't matter if the story is novel; there is nothing new under the sun -- it's all been written before. I have to be entertained, to feel empathy with the characters -- feel their hurt and want to help them win. I didn't feel that. It felt formulaic. It annoyed me. The plot and direction needed a few more months' work, each; which would have given the testers time to get the bugs out, hopefully.

 

NwN OC is okay -- I think the HoU expansion is best (the second expansion, SoU module, really was woeful) ... I must say, though that the community of developers have created some cracking good modules which put the OC and KotOR 2 to shame.

 

 

Let me just say this:

 

The game had to be finished with a better and more satisfying end. I agree with you on that. However, my point is that even though it has a crappy ending, it doesn't mean that the story was bad. If it was too formulaic for you, and you didn't care about your character, that still isn't reason enough to say that the story(not counting the ending) is horrible, because maybe those "boring" stories about NPC's can play a role on the third game as well. there are many possibilities.

 

Now, from what I have read, if you read no outside sources, let's say you come out fresh after the first game to play KOTOR 2, the story will puzzle you and you will wonder many things until you get to Malachor V, it happened to me, happened to a lot of people.

 

Now if you were able to anticipate many things about the plot by yourself

congrats!!

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"The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL the first time through by maxing out the influence system."

 

And? That doens't make it deep.

 

 

"- How you got to Peragus mining facility and why"

 

You should know that before the game start sicne your character supposedly doesn't have amnesia yet thd devs play games with you just for kicks. Anywayds, the reason is because the game starts there.

 

"- You must have predicted all to well that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again"

 

Sure did. It was obvious to anyone since the Jedi Council banished you once; of coutse they'll do it again espicially when you tell them what's up. I was hoping for an out; but alas; no go.

 

 

"- that you were going to end up on malachor v halfway through the game"

 

From the first time it was mentioned pretty much., malaichor V was too important to not have the PC go there. Afterall, that's where the PC has his big broo haa and where the Big Secret tm. took place.

 

 

"-Kreia manipulating you during the whole game for her own ends."

 

You joking right? I knew Kreia was the moment she pretended to be dead the first time you saw her "dead". Hahah. Talk about obvious manipulation. :thumbsup:

 

 

Hades: "Every Bioware game that has come out has been a predictable piece and very shallow and poor writing, very much unlike Obsidian and former BIS games."

 

yet, you rate BIo agmes rather highly including 75% for the OC and nearly 90% for KOTOR1 and you are someone who claims that story is the only thing that matter. Haha.

 

Not to mention, have you played the IWD series? Those are BIS games and are more shallow than *any* of BIO's RPG's this side of TOSC and SOU.

 

 

It's EASY for you to say all these things after you have played the game. Let me leave it at that. :lol:"

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ok, your reply with a quote from me had nothing to do with a point that i tried to make so that was your first mistake.

 

This doesn't make any sense. Your post contained spoilers, which I do not care to read in a NO SPOILERS forum. So don't do it. Is that easy enough for you to grasp? NO SPOILER FORUM = NO SPOILERS.

 

your second mistake was that you failed to realize we are discussing STORYTELLING and whether they did a good job with it or not, thus it makes it obvious there are possibilities of spoilers being written in this thread...

 

What you failed to realize is that you are not the one who decides when and where the rules apply. Therefore, post spoilers in a spoilers forum, if you are incapable of discussing writing ability without spoliers.

 

but then again...once you werent really bright enough to find that out for yourself

 

Ooh, ooh, please don't insult my intelligence, please! It might destroy my self-esteem. Are you bright enough to figure out this simple equation?

 

THIS FORUM = NO SPOILERS

 

Do this:

 

Turn off you computer

GROW UP

Don't  ever bother me again

 

Heres a better list, for you.

 

Read the rules again.

Realise that growing up does not involve letting other people wantonly break rules.

Don't post spoilers in this forum again.

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Read the rules again.

Realise that growing up does not involve letting other people wantonly break rules.

Don't post spoilers in this forum again.

 

Or at the very least use

spoiler tags

like these. :blink:

"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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I'm tired of all the 'it's cliche' comments -- lets face it, everything, when boiled down, can be cliche. ITS BEEN DONE! But Knights' first installment and Bioware built good, solid characters -- they built one helluva a story, that, while easy to find out, is nonetheless epic and will sell to the majority of people because its an intermediate type twist.

 

Saying Knights sucks is like saying Harry Potter sucks cause you knew Dolores Umbridge was going to be evil in some way shape or form because she was the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher -- who cares? Its a fun story, and while you may not like it, I liked the fact that it was complete, straightforward, and not filled with what Alec Guinness basically called his lines in A New Hope: ****. You had realistic perspectives from Jolee Bindo, you had a realistic situation between Bastila and Revan, you had people who were incharge who were incompetent and that, while cliche, is still realistic.

 

With The Sith Lords, each line is painful. Master Kreia, while she is gray at the beginning, is still spouting bull**** my ears could hardly take. From the moment you picked the dialogue option, you knew what would happen and it was painfully obvious on the first planet that you were just another oldbie with an issue that at least Revan had no control over and that Master Kreia would be playing you -- you couldn't do anything about it, which makes the story dog****. While this is okay, don't say the first installment is cliche -- Kreia is both painful and cliche.

 

With Knights, there's an easy to figure twist but you get a lot of depth, a lot of story-telling, and in the end, I wanted to hear a good story -- I wanted to be entertained, I wanted a few challenges, and I got that. With Sith Lords, I restricted myself to strictly light thoughts or dark thoughts and options unlike in the first one and I still beat every person with one or two rounds -- there was no challenge. If the point of the game was to show how great a character I was because I'm a Force Wound, then its not really that great of a game. You may find it unique but I just find it a problem and that problem being the developers not having the skills to balance the game properly.

 

I know they didn't have time to finish, but I don't think I could have expected much more with their slew of characters that were really, really tacky either indecent or uncivil or just plain dirty and that just isn't what I want in a game. I'm all for hardcore games with cussing and sex-appeal, but not from Star Wars. I want a realm with civility and depth and I didn't get it with Sith Lords -- Bioware takes the cake -- they had a plot that was significantly more indepth and difficult to figure out than Star Wars I, II, III, IV, V, and VI did and they get my vote.

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Agh! Not more complaints! Why? Why must you constantly bash poor Obsidian to pieces? What the (expletive) is the point?!?! You're not going to change anything. You're not making anybody happy! If you don't like the games why the (expletive) are you even here? This topic has been waaaaaay overdone and its time to put it to rest.

 

I'm sorry if you dislike the game (especially since I think you're missing out on the best game ever made) but you're just ruining everybody else's times and just pissing a whole bunch of people off. So stop. You don't have to do this. People who don't like TSL, leave. People who do, please, stay. This place is meant for you.

 

Now, I was going to argue with you and defend TSL but by now I know its pointless and you're about as likely to change my mind as I am to change mine. I only hope you do simply follow my advice.

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I don't have to -- I played the game and had fun but when discussing which story is best of the two, I'm not going to lie. KotOR2:TSL was flawed in my humble opinion and I won't stick up for a game company because they didn't complete their game in the alotted time nor take into account what type of publisher they were dealing with in the first place.

 

That doesn't change the fact that, if I wanted to, I could not get my fifty dollars back for a defective piece of hardware (As I've heard from quite a few PC players). Furthermore, I doubt they sincerely care whether or not I am satisfied nor whether or not you have sympathy for their 'unjust' predictament.

 

I will discuss The Sith Lords, as I please -- I have played the game, fully, both Dark and Lightside, have exhausted certain dialogues to see if anything different will happen and feel I have a good grasp of why the game was they way it was and I don't think its a good enough excuse for the issues I had with it. Furthermore, this discussion has a lot of people saying Obsidian outclassed Bioware but I will defend Bioware who built the graphics and the engine, built the storyline that was stellar, and made in-depth characters in comparison to Obsidians tweaks that crash half the systems its run on (PC-wise), storyline that leaves most wanting more, characters that lack depth, and mumbo-jumbo lines that Alec Guinness, former Obi-Wan actor, found atrocious that are laced within the game.

 

Defend it as you wish -- or not. I'm not here to convert people; I'm merely finding it hard-to-believe people think either game is not cliche in several ways or easy to figure out when considering you're selling to the public -- not Ivy League students.

 

In closing, I think I'll give credit to the desingers -- they had a couple of decent plot areas that were nice and smile-worthy, but I won't care really if they didn't have the time to complete it: money is money, and I don't have time for excuses. I'm the consumer -- I expect a game thoroughly debunked and completed; I got neither and as such, I can be unsatisfied, and furthermore, I can be here as the discussion doesn't revolve around worshipping either Obsidian or The Sith Lords.

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what bugged me was a small thing and probably kinda stupid. echo! echo echo echo echo echo! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh ok I got it the first time! stop talking about echoes dang it! I know it's an important part of the storyline but sheesh enough already. :ph34r:

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Well, I'm done reading your opinions. Better luck next time.

 

But... why should I care? :(

 

Also: Harry Potter books suck because J.K. Rowling is a ****ing hack. FYI buddy.

 

A matter of opinion -- many find George Lucas to be a hack. Find Bush to be a hack. The list goes on. Fact is, Harry Potter is popular enough to outsell everything. There's some reasoning behind that, and its because the books, while the plots leave more to be desired, are entertaining. The Sith Lords, to more than just 'a few', is garbage that could be rented and done with. Ya, you have people who hate Harry Potter, but its fanbase outnumbers those who hate it amongst its target group considerably -- TSL doesn't have that, and generally, with HP, each book draws more and its fan-base is pleased with each new installment generally deeming it 'better than the last.'

 

Finally: I can say TSL sucks because Obsidian blows -- should I care that they didn't have enough time? Its not my problem -- I'm the consumer, not their sympathiser and because of that reason alone, I don't really have to know anything about you, or them -- I should get the game and not have to ask, 'Who the **** were the people designing this **** and why does it have more holes than Swiss Cheese?'

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I did mention that it had many, many more lovers than haters in its target group, right? I know you got it, but I don't want people arguing with me -- personally, I don't really enjoy the books for a plot but its universe is more than interesting. Nothing like Tolkien's but then again, for me, The Tolkien Universe is at the top.

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what bugged me was a small thing and probably kinda stupid. echo! echo echo echo echo echo! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh ok I got it the first time! stop talking about echoes dang it! I know it's an important part of the storyline but sheesh enough already. :ph34r:

 

It's very important though.

 

You know the old duck pond anology ? Drop a big rock in a pond and the ripples will soon cease. Drop a handful of gravel in a pond and the ripples will continue on and on. Getting larger than those created by one large rock. With enough small rocks dropped in the right place you can cover the entire surface of a lake.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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Nice one. :(

 

KOTOR II requires you to think. KOTOR I is best played with your brain switched off because if you do think you will see right through it long before the game decides to tell you about it. It was the whole having to play along thing that I hated most about it , aside from the cheese of Malak. It was clear you were being played but you couldnt confront Bastila about it, or even return to Dantooine and demand an explanation. Thats Biowares greatest failingas writers. They put in these twists and then make them completely obvious by putting in tons of clues. Like the letters in NwN. Or what about the bless spell which is obviously not bless, yet the character dosnt get an option to act on that evidence.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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"It's EASY for you to say all these things after you have played the game. Let me leave it at that."

 

It was easy for me to say it even while playing the game. Very easy. I'll leave it at THAT.

 

 

"KOTOR II requires you to think."

 

No, it doesn't. PST requires you to think. KOTOR2 doesn't. If yout hink in KOTOR2 all you gonna do is realize the game is, while decently fun after Peragus, is a hack game. Too much effort was put in to rip off of PST, and not enough effort was to pull it off successfully.

 

 

"KOTOR I is best played with your brain switched off because if you do think you will see right through it long before the game decides to tell you about it. It was the whole having to play along thing that I hated most about it , aside from the cheese of Malak. It was clear you were being played but you couldnt confront Bastila about it, or even return to Dantooine and demand an explanation. Thats Biowares greatest failingas writers. They put in these twists and then make them completely obvious by putting in tons of clues. Like the letters in NwN. Or what about the bless spell which is obviously not bless, yet the character dosnt get an option to act on that evidence."

 

KOTOR2 has *exactly* th same problems.

 

 

"Well, I'm done reading your opinions. Better luck next time."

 

That's right. Read soemthing you don't like; close your eyes and pretend it doens't exist and write the person off as a retard. It makes it easy to pretend your delusions of grandeur is perfect.

 

As for posting on this baord; you can't stop posting on this baord, and crying about anti Obsidian/KOTOR2 remarks like a baby and demanding that people leave is the hight of immaturity.

 

The thread starter, while negative was (mostly) mature in sharing his opinion. There are definitely other anti and some pro KOTOR2 peeps who are the depths of immaturity - you being one of 'em - so don't throw stones.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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