Making the Battles more Epic.

[Azure79]

K1 and K2 are great games but the battles within the games didn't really have an epic feel to them. Compared to some of the main battles in the BG series and IWD series, my favorites being all the improved boss battles from ToB, the battle against Sarevok, and the boss battles in IWD, the battles in the KOTOR series are lacking.

 

I think there are several reasons for this the most prominent being that the games are too easy. Everything is over before you can really savor the battle, whether you're using Storm to obliterate everything before you, smashing your opponents against the walls using wave or just cutting everything down with blinding Force speed.

 

Another big reason is the lack of enemy AI. Enemies just charge you, even the dark jedi. In the infinity engine games at least the mages cast spells that disrupted or immobilized your party while the fighters charged. Dragons would blow you away if your fighters did too much damage. Sure there were proven tactics that worked everytime against such enemy advances but at least you had to think as to who would engage who, who would cast counter-spells, who would buff the party and who would quaff some invisibilty potions to do some backstabbing.

 

Which brings me to my next point, the party is too small IMHO. 3 per party I think decreases the options made available to you, plus puts limits on how the design team can craft encounters with the enemy. If the party was larger I think the designers could throw more enemies strategically at you and you would have the options on how to respond to that. For example If your party was 5 or 6, then the designers could have enemies flank from opposite sides while another group attacks from the back. The enemies would each have different tactics as well. one group would lay down blaster fire, while another charged with swords. You could respond by sending a jedi towards the rear to protect from blaster fire, send two jedi to both flanks to deflect blaster bolts while positioning your blaster users behind them for protection, while your PC would charge the the advancing melee enemies. I'm sure the designers could come up with better stuff. There are probably some limits with the game engine to make this possible though.

 

Another reason, the terrain is too flat. All the battles that take place in the game take place on relatively flat surfaces. Being that the game takes place in a 3D environment, it would have been awesome to see blaster fighters shooting from atop roofs, with jedi having the ability to jump to the rooftops to engage the enemy. How about enemies using jet packs like the Fetts. Mandalore could've used one to attack meet the enemies in the air, or jedi having the ability to force jump to cut them down. Does anyone remember that area in IWD where you're force to cross a bridge while archers and mages are attacking from across. Seeing something like this in Kotor would have been great. With enemies attacking from above and below as well as from the sides.

 

The Boss Battles. In Kotor series most major boss battles are one on one. Revan/Malak, Exile/Sion, Exile/Traya, Exile and party/Nihilus. With the game being too easy, I think many players were dissapointed in just how quickly those battles ended. I think it would be more epic if your entire party was engaged in some way to the fight. Whether its holding down strategic points against henchmen coming to support their leader, or engaging the top lieutenants that attack alongside the main boss, or maybe sabotoging some energy source the boss feeds from, or trying to dismantle the traps in the surrounding area that could be fatal. Everyone would have some specific role to play that complements their abilities. Of course the main boss would also direct his followers to distrupt your plans while attacking you. You would also have to coordinate your party so that everything falls into place.

 

Damn, have to catch some shut eye.

 

Feel free to comment, flame, add, you know the usual.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Add more party members, thats the only thing that works. But KOTOR inherently lacks the variety of D&D anyway.

[Dragonforce]

this is more about boss battles,

 

if the battles were more spread out on purpose, ie like fighting malak for the first time in the original, that sort of idea only expanded a bit or of there were other factors to take into account like lasers or those red beams in episode one

or if there were different animations for fighting certain bosses

[dufflover]

Epic battles are more suited to RTS or FPS games. However, I do consider blaster shootouts to be pretty fun to watch.

 

But when it comes to boss fighting, I'm definitely a JA fan.

[LadyCrimson]

I think 5 or 6 in the party would be too many.....at least for the engine they're using. The view would have to be wider, at least.

 

But I did often want one more, so I could have 2 melee and 2 ranged...I like balance.

 

I think the average combat should remain fairly easy for those who don't want the focus of the game to be super-hard combat. But there should definitely be a much harder difficulty option, for those who want it. I mean, even a combat-idiot like myself found it too easy even on 'hard'.

[Aegis]

I found the combat quite boring. Spam the strongest attack you have, and then it's just a matter of comparing stats. No skill or strategy worth mentioning involved, except switching to melee/ranged once in a while. Even playing Diablo as a melee fighter was more exciting, and that is arguably one of the worst and most boring way to fight in gaming history.

[Drakron]

The reason is quite simple.

 

The d20 system breaks down at higher levels, in epic levels it simply comes down to gets to act first.

 

Its somewhat of a flaw of the d20 system, there are ways to solve then but not with the system used in this game.

 

And its true there are engine limitations, this game lacks a Z axis (in other words, there is no "up" or "down") so there are things that cannot be done.

 

Personaly I dont think the party is too small, I think the enemies are simply too many and they are unable to do anything but rush tactics, they might have raised blaster damage but since there is no cover in this game it can only go as far before it becames a "game ending" battle.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Everyone in KOTOR does pretty much the same thing. Jedi are more powerful than the lot of them. Which means you dont have much in the way of variety. KOTOR II tried , but in the heat of battle it's not particularly noticable, or combat isnt touch enough to make it worth while(take you pick).

 

In D&D everyone has a role and no one else can really fill that role in quite the same way. That is what gives BG/IWD combat the edge. It's how the whole works by combining the parts.

 

Where as in KOTOR you just pick your favourite NPCs because the classes all do more or less the same thing and you have serious skill overlap.

 

To get really good combat you need to have a defined role for each participant. Too much overlap invariably means less interesting combat because you dont have to worry about making up for deficient characters. For example in D&D low level mages need to be kept alive and that forms a big part of the combat strategy as does their ability to clear a room by pointing a finger. In KOTOR a Jedi can clear a room by pointing a finger but has no particular weaknesses.

[Darth Frog]

The original KotOR actually requires a bit of tactics and has very nice battles if you go solo. At least until you reach level 15 or so. For added spice, do it without shields/stims/medpacks/grenades/mines. In two places the use of grenades cannot be avoided unless you have lots of time on your hands (Rancor in the sewers, triple turrets in Vulcar base) and there are two places where the game script requires the use of grenades/mines (Korriban) but apart from that it is more fun without. This requires a balanced character with a modicum of skills and a bit of Force DC.

 

Even in TSL battles can get tactical in a hurry if you accept Forna K. Shan's Minimum XP Challenge.

[DeathScepter]

a split battle scene similar to Dxun/ondoneron battle scene but with more characters from your crew.

[Drakron]

You have a valid point ShadowPaladin.

 

The problem comes from Star Wars itself, it simply does not allow very diverse roles but they done things in trying to solve then.

 

Problem is that TSL does not, Bao-Dur and T3 are good examples were they simply buffed into combat characters instead of weak characters that had other roles on the party, also with the insane loot we get from the start its almost impossible to not make a combat character ... I can say the problem comed from KotOR with the "repair parts" and the like that made skills a matter of resources and not character planing and advacement.

[Kdy-worker 1138]

Maybe the real answer would be to not give the player,tons of items/feats that increse his/her combat abillity to insane godhood..hence the fights would be longer and more intense :running low on vitallity ..should i dare to power attack knowing that it will drop my defence 2 points risking death.

Also making Death a factor tend to increse the intensity of any fight (who cares when your charecter just get up after the fight).

[Von Manstein]

I think the main problem is too many enemies of a ridiculously low skill level. Boss characters are important, and even more so mini-bosses, marking posts for progress basically. They are more powerful than your individual characters or have some great advantage (something to do with terrain, shields, space, etc.), which means that strategy is needed in order to defeat them. Your characters have to actually be put in danger of dieing, not just in danger of losing three HP. The best battles in BGII were the ones where your party fought another party of equal or superior strength. Things got really interesting and tense. Chopping down your three hundredth gizka or pathetic bounty-hunter got boring in TSL, and was certainly not epic.

[DeathScepter]

the enemies should be equal to the player's PC and PC team.

[Revan Si-Darlo]

My Idea:

 

Alright, I agree that the battles should be more epic. However, I don't think an FPS system should be implemented. Instead, let's just improve the system that already exists.

 

For example, in the main action portion of the taskbar where "attack" or "switch weapons" is, you could also put certain other moves that would enhance combat and make it seem more than just a couple of people shooting at one another to death.

 

For example, you could select "crouch" or "roll" to take cover behind objects like containers, benches, other people, etc. This would decrease your accuracy but increase your defense, etc, etc, etc. Also, I think combat should be based more on not getting hit than having lots of vitality points. Its a system that works but its not realistic and doesn't fit with the Star Wars univsere.

 

For example, somebody could dodge several blaster bolts but if they're hit the bolt does more damage. And for lightsabers the same. You concentrate more on blocking than hitting your opponent, leading to battles reminiscent of the movies instead of simply bashouts that don't make any sense considering the lethalness of a lightsaber.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I think the main problem is too many enemies of a ridiculously low skill level. Boss characters are important, and even more so mini-bosses, marking posts for progress basically. They are more powerful than your individual characters or have some great advantage (something to do with terrain, shields, space, etc.), which means that strategy is needed in order to defeat them. Your characters have to actually be put in danger of dieing, not just in danger of losing three HP. The best battles in BGII were the ones where your party fought another party of equal or superior strength. Things got really interesting and tense. Chopping down your three hundredth gizka or pathetic bounty-hunter got boring in TSL, and was certainly not epic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again though a KOTOR "party" would not have the variety. For starters there would be less of them. You wouldnt have the order of engagement like in D&D where you kill off the magic users first because they can seriously screw up your plans. In KOTOR everyone is pretty much the same, even the Jedi are not upto much. This has been true in both games. The only reason Malak lasted longer is because he was a cheating piece of excrement.

 

Ditto with the enemies. In D&D you have 4 or 5 manuals full of enemies with a plethora of different abilities. In KOTOR you have a handful of aliens (mostly humanoid) and some animal types which are hardly worth igniting your lightsaber for.

 

I guess one of the reasons for that is having to keep to the rules of the universe. But it certainly lacks the variety of most "fantasy" games.

 

The only way to "solve" that would be to increase the workload. This will demand more of the players attention. If you want to talk about easy bosses. Dino dude in Jedi Academy (think it was that one) I could kill in one blow But It felt good because I was doing it, not a dice.

 

Perhaps KOTOR needs a more hybrid hands on system. Lets see how JE works out.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

the enemies should be equal to the player's PC and PC team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem with that is that you invariably slow the game to a crawl because each fight will exhaust the party.

 

You either then need a rest option. Or you get EQ syndrome of "downtime" which is something that no single player game should have.

[dufflover]

Epic Battles = Star Wars BattleFront.

 

I think that's why it was created in the first place.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Epic Battles = Star Wars BattleFront.

 

I think that's why it was created in the first place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is Battlefront the FPS or the RTS ?

[dufflover]

Is Battlefront the FPS or the RTS ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Battlefront is the FPS. Galactic Battlegrounds is the RTS.

How about Star Wars Galaxies - I've never played it, but that looks like a large scale RPG game.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Battlefront is the FPS. Galactic Battlegrounds is the RTS.

How about Star Wars Galaxies - I've never played it, but that looks like a large scale RPG game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh yes one of the few FPS games I bothered going online for. Fun for the weekend. not much cop single player though.

 

Me either.

 

I dont know how "hands on" it is. Hands on seems to work better with smaller groups/less options because your too busy to really see the big picture. Where as in KOTOR a couple of clicks and you can sit back and watch the show.

 

One reason I'm interested in seeing how JE turns out.

[Azure79]

I think the main problem is too many enemies of a ridiculously low skill level. Boss characters are important, and even more so mini-bosses, marking posts for progress basically. They are more powerful than your individual characters or have some great advantage (something to do with terrain, shields, space, etc.), which means that strategy is needed in order to defeat them. Your characters have to actually be put in danger of dieing, not just in danger of losing three HP. The best battles in BGII were the ones where your party fought another party of equal or superior strength. Things got really interesting and tense. Chopping down your three hundredth gizka or pathetic bounty-hunter got boring in TSL, and was certainly not epic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again though a KOTOR "party" would not have the variety. For starters there would be less of them. You wouldnt have the order of engagement like in D&D where you kill off the magic users first because they can seriously screw up your plans. In KOTOR everyone is pretty much the same, even the Jedi are not upto much. This has been true in both games. The only reason Malak lasted longer is because he was a cheating piece of excrement.

 

Ditto with the enemies. In D&D you have 4 or 5 manuals full of enemies with a plethora of different abilities. In KOTOR you have a handful of aliens (mostly humanoid) and some animal types which are hardly worth igniting your lightsaber for.

 

I guess one of the reasons for that is having to keep to the rules of the universe. But it certainly lacks the variety of most "fantasy" games.

 

The only way to "solve" that would be to increase the workload. This will demand more of the players attention. If you want to talk about easy bosses. Dino dude in Jedi Academy (think it was that one) I could kill in one blow But It felt good because I was doing it, not a dice.

 

Perhaps KOTOR needs a more hybrid hands on system. Lets see how JE works out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let me guess....heavy slash to the midsection while crouching to avoid one of Dino Dude's attacks?

 

That's how I usually do it, no force power enhancements or anything.

 

 

Anyways, some good ideas here. I agree that the diversity of the classes available in D&D, with their respective strenghts and weaknesses, enhances the viable tactics you can use making the battles more strategic and as a result epic. The diversity of the potential enemies help as well as you have to adapt your plans to their vulnerabilities.

 

Maybe one way to improve this aspect of SW is too give more information or elaborate on the unique characteristics of the alien species that populate the SW universe. Right now, as enemies an Ithorian is the same as a Twilek, Human, Selkath, Rakata and any of the other alien races that appear in the game.

 

If specific strengths and weaknesses could be developed and attributed to each of the races, I think it would make combat a lot more interesting.

 

For example the Ithorian Jedi in Clone wars had this special ability to send immense shockwaves that hurled opponents out of the way or disoriented them. It might be fun to encounter non-jedi enemies with such an ability. The Ithorian could also hurl your Force Waves back at you due to his affinity in manipulating those kinds of forces.

 

I'm also looking forward to Jade Empire to see how well Bioware mixes action and RPG elements. If its successful I'm sure it could be implemented in a SW universe, where lightsaber combat has more significance than simply clicking on your enemy.

 

Part of me wants K3 to be built on the Source engine, solely for the reason that the devs could probably implement Force Throw as a power. I think this would add a strategic element to combat as well. The thought of using the force to hurl random stuff at enemies is entertaining.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Maybe one way to improve this aspect of SW is too give more information or elaborate on the unique characteristics of the alien species that populate the SW universe. Right now, as enemies an Ithorian is the same as a Twilek, Human, Selkath, Rakata and any of the other alien races that appear in the game.

 

If specific strengths and weaknesses could be developed and attributed to each of the races, I think it would make combat a lot more interesting.

 

For example the Ithorian Jedi in Clone wars had this special ability to send immense shockwaves that hurled opponents out of the way or disoriented them. It might be fun to encounter non-jedi enemies with such an ability. The Ithorian could also hurl your Force Waves back at you due to his affinity in manipulating those kinds of forces.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well at the moment for all it matters aliens are just funny looking humans. Making them more unique certainly couldnt hurt.

 

Big fan of clone wars. Even more than the prequels.

[Drakron]

Still I have to point out this is Star Wars and so there are a lot of things that simply sould not be done.

 

I think part of why classes are "the same" is because the game throws the same BAB progression and the AC eventually caps, armor really sould give DR and there would been a more variaty of weapons.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Still I have to point out this is Star Wars and so there are a lot of things that simply sould not be done.

 

I think part of why classes are "the same" is because the game throws the same BAB progression and the AC eventually caps, armor really sould give DR and there would been a more variaty of weapons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not so sure because even in D&D those with lower BAB's dont use weapons unless in a pinch. In KOTOR everyone uses weapons, even the "mages".

 

I find SW suited to a more Jedi Academy/Dark Forces type setup. That makes up for the low variety of enemies.