The Kreia/Kae Question

[phiont]

I've pieced together a version of the cut dialong that was to have occurred between the Exile and Master Lonna Vash; found dead on Korriban. Kaah, the Padawan of Lonna Vash, has just died.

 

Exile: Kaah is dead.

Vash: I know. I felt it.

Exile: Are the two of you mentally bonded?

Vash: Yes, as many Masters and Padawans become with time.

Exile: If Kaah were to die, would you also?

Vash: It is painful to lose one to whom you are bonded. But it is not fatal.

Exile: My bond to Kreia would result in my death were she to die.

Vash: This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of. How did it come to be?

Exile: I do not know.

Vash: That is most unnatural. Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives. Nothing ever happens to us unless we allow it.

 

I'm not sure if I assembled their conversation entirely correctly, but the important bit is that the Exile actually mentioned Kreia by name to someone who should have recognised it if Kreia had indeed been using that name while Revan's master. However, Lonna Vash doesn't seem to recognise it.

 

Another day, another detail...

[AlaricQelDroma]

I've pieced together a version of the cut dialong that was to have occurred between the Exile and Master Lonna Vash; found dead on Korriban.  Kaah, the Padawan of Lonna Vash, has just died.

 

Exile: Kaah is dead.

Vash: I know. I felt it.

Exile: Are the two of you mentally bonded?

Vash: Yes, as many Masters and Padawans become with time.

Exile: If Kaah were to die, would you also?

Vash: It is painful to lose one to whom you are bonded. But it is not fatal.

Exile: My bond to Kreia would result in my death were she to die.

Vash: This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of. How did it come to be?

Exile: I do not know.

Vash: That is most unnatural. Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives. Nothing ever happens to us unless we allow it.

 

I'm not sure if I assembled their conversation entirely correctly, but the important bit is that the Exile actually mentioned Kreia by name to someone who should have recognised it if Kreia had indeed been using that name while Revan's master.  However, Lonna Vash doesn't seem to recognise it.

 

Another day, another detail... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I always did love Vash over Atris...Atris was the weakling book-worm, while Vash was very different....Stronger...

[phiont]

Yup. In the cut dialog Vash says that she did not come to Korriban to hide, but to fight the Sith who were re-establishing a colony there.

 

Vash: {smiles}I dislike passivity. Much like another Jedi I know.

 

When I found her dead I felt kinda guilty for having left Korriban to the end.

 

 

By the way, I think the same voice actor does the Handmaiden sisters.

[Midnight]

HOW DO YOU RETARDS MAKES IT THROUGH THE DAY?

 

Watching grown men wasting their lives on forums like this sickens me.  You people are the scum of the Earth.  Pull your **** out of your floppy drives, stop writing novels about children's video games and GO FIND SOME OXYGEN.  Honestly, it's like talking to frickin' 4 year olds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And yet, here you are criticizing the people that spend their time here by spending your time wasting your life on a forum to criticize them. ;) Most discomforting when you think about it, isn't it?

[Midnight]

And as for my theories about Master Kae, they never said specifically how she died, just that she did die during the wars. I believe that she was not Kreia, but was infact Kae, and was the female Jedi that Atton killed that opened his mind to the Force. Both were said to be beautiful, and it would add in a bit more to the pairings of Handmaiden & Atton to your parties' dynamic.

[phiont]

And as for my theories about Master Kae, they never said specifically how she died, just that she did die during the wars. I believe that she was not Kreia, but was infact Kae, and was the female Jedi that Atton killed that opened his mind to the Force. Both were said to be beautiful, and it would add in a bit more to the pairings of Handmaiden & Atton to your parties' dynamic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool theory, but then how did Kae's robes end up with Handmaiden? :cool:

[AlaricQelDroma]

And as for my theories about Master Kae, they never said specifically how she died, just that she did die during the wars. I believe that she was not Kreia, but was infact Kae, and was the female Jedi that Atton killed that opened his mind to the Force. Both were said to be beautiful, and it would add in a bit more to the pairings of Handmaiden & Atton to your parties' dynamic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool theory, but then how did Kae's robes end up with Handmaiden? :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Master" Atris gave them to her? Maybe along with the Exile's Lightsaber she stole?

 

I mean, I got tired of having Atris always hold onto your saber, so I just made it so before you meet the Council, Brianna hands you back your old saber, complete with special mods to it's base specs

[Fionavar]

Thread Pruned: I would strongly encourage that any posting that occurs from now be posted with respect toward one another. If you have nothing constructive to say then do not post. If I have to play police the sandbox again, warnings will fly and moderated status will unfortunately be an option at the Big Green's disposal ...

[Neroyume]

And as for my theories about Master Kae, they never said specifically how she died, just that she did die during the wars. I believe that she was not Kreia, but was infact Kae, and was the female Jedi that Atton killed that opened his mind to the Force. Both were said to be beautiful, and it would add in a bit more to the pairings of Handmaiden & Atton to your parties' dynamic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your timing seems to be a bit off. Atton didn't start hunting Jedi for Revan until after the Mandalorian war was over.

 

If Kae was killed during the battle at Malachor V isn't it likely that she was killed when the mass shadow generator was activated? Other Jedi were killed by it. That might explain her father's state of mind when he returned from Malachor.

[OneWithStrange]

Cool theory, but then how did Kae's robes end up with Handmaiden?  :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wha...? How do you figure the robes Handmaiden wears belong to Kae? Did I miss something in the game?

 

-Ben

[Grant Dempsey]

Wha...?  How do you figure the robes Handmaiden wears belong to Kae?  Did I miss something in the game?

 

-Ben

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Handmaiden herself said her robes were all that she had left of her mother.

[phiont]

Wha...?  How do you figure the robes Handmaiden wears belong to Kae?  Did I miss something in the game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup.

 

[The Great Phantom]

I don't know that Kreia was completely lying about her Force bond with the Exile.

 

Remember what Master Zez-Kai Ell said about Force bonds, after all. Alleviating such a bond would require that one of the "bondees" have their feelings or perceptions actually change in some drastic sense, which, he said, would be almost as hard as turning away from the Force.

 

In some of the cut content, there was also dialogue wherein Master Vash stated that Force bonds could be severed if one of the "bondees" fell to an opposing alignment from the other "bondee" (she cited her bond with a former Padawan of hers and how it disappeared once the Padawan fell to the Dark Side of the Force as an example).

 

It could have simply been that the Exile's perceptions of Kreia had changed when she "revealed" herself as Darth Traya and when the Exile confronted her at the Trayus Core on Malachor V. There was also a theory going around that Kreia herself had forced the bond between she and the Exile into existence, and simply severed it herself once the Exile arrived on Malachor V.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks again for agreeing with me...One day...You shall become l33t enough to learn the hardest lessons...Just continue to memorize everything...Become better than a computer database...Pheel da Farce, Cold Hand Luuuuuke :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

HOLY CRAP! I leave w/ 13 pages down, and come back w/ 15!

 

The Exile did bond w/ Kreia.

 

HEY, I THOUGHT THAT WAS MY IDEA! I thought I was the first to incinuate that Kreia knows how to FORCE herself into people... Or did I miss something???

 

I still don't think that Kreia killing herself would have done much, if anything. For one, The Exile has "strength in such matters"-Atris, and survived thousands of dying at the same time...

[The Great Phantom]

I have to complain really quickly. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE "GREY-SIDE"!!!!!

 

You serve either Light or Dark, with varying shades of grey. Jolee wasn't a 'grey', he served the Light. Kreia wasn't a 'grey', she served (inadvertantly) the Dark.

 

Every Master says that if you try to walk the edges, you will fall to either side, eventually. Unfortunatly, this 'side' is the Dark Side, in more cases than one.

[OneWithStrange]

Yeah, I just figured that out this morning... d'oh... needless to say, I didn't talk with Handmaiden very often

 

-Ben

[AlaricQelDroma]

Yeah, I just figured that out this morning... d'oh... needless to say, I didn't talk with Handmaiden very often 

 

-Ben

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My, what an amusing Jedi specimen you are :D

 

Ahem, well, let me say this in reply to your post, then:

 

Watch the trailer that I put out a long time ago, the l33t g@m34 subtitled version of the EP3 trailer....At the end, it says "Kill everything", then "all the Grey too!", hehehehe....

 

There is NO gray/grey/silver-sides of the Farce, the next person who mentions that, will immediately be executed by way of a low-energy stun blaster at VERY close range, or I will have T3 shove his shock arm so far up your posterior that you will be screaming for mercy before your head gets blown off your neck from the EM charge :D

[OneWithStrange]

You post too much. "

[AlaricQelDroma]

You post too much.  " 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? I have not noticed

[tmp]

Every Master says that if you try to walk the edges, you will fall to either side, eventually.

Didn't KotOR2 deal with this very subject, just how little these "masters" really know. "

 

dark, light... i'm the one with lightsaber...

[Jambo]

Honestly, I think Kreia is way too old to be Handmaiden's mother. I mean, if you think about, Handmaiden is like, what, in early to mid twenties. She's pretty young and Kreia's a f*cking antique. She's probably like 75 or 80, at least. So, if she's Handmaiden's mother, she would've given birth at around 50 or so. Even with the Star Wars Universe being as royally f*cked up as it is, I find it unlikely that she would still be *clears throat* "active" at that age, in terms of trying to have a child. Also, wasn't Kreia teaching youngsters at the Trayus Acedemy while everyone else was "outside" fighting a war. Once the battle started, she probably told everyone to get under their desk, crouch down, and put their hands over their head. "O.K. children, we've practiced this drill before, only now it's not drill. What do we do when theirs a war "occuring" on outside?"

[ncr]

Kreia is handmaiden's grandmother. She blames the force for the death of her daughter. It's true! "

[Revan Si-Darlo]

You know... the thought never crossed me but now you have me convinced that Kreia is the same as Kae. Frankly, that actually makes a lot of sense now that you think of it.

 

Honestly, I think Kreia is way too old to be Handmaiden's mother. I mean, if you think about, Handmaiden is like, what, in early to mid twenties. She's pretty young and Kreia's a f*cking antique. She's probably like 75 or 80, at least. So, if she's Handmaiden's mother, she would've given birth at around 50 or so. Even with the Star Wars Universe being as royally f*cked up as it is, I find it unlikely that she would still be *clears throat* "active" at that age, in terms of trying to have a child. Also, wasn't Kreia teaching youngsters at the Trayus Acedemy while everyone else was "outside" fighting a war. Once the battle started, she probably told everyone to get under their desk, crouch down, and put their hands over their head. "O.K. children, we've practiced this drill before, only now it's not drill. What do we do when theirs a war "occuring" on outside?"

 

As usual I have to go into detail about how the Force messes this whole age issue up.

 

First of all, though humans on average in the Star Wars universe follow the same life cycle as humans in our present time, Force users are an exception. The dark side wages war on the body of its users, aging them. This is but one explanation for the fact that Kreia doesn't look to be in her 60s, a prime age for a late birth such as Mara Jade's of Ben Skywalker.

 

Second of all, take in mind that Kreia was supposed to be beautiful. It is a known fact that many women who are physically attractive throughout their childbearing years (teens to late forties possibly) quickly age after they begin to go into menopause. This is yet another explanation for why Kreia looks like she's in her sixties.

 

Third of all, back on the Force issue, in the same way that the dark side degrades a body the light side enhances it. Sense, by the time taht Kreia is fifty she might still look like she's in her late 30s. Strange, but true :s.

 

Kreia is handmaiden's grandmother. She blames the force for the death of her daughter. It's true!

 

Eh... I'm curious. Where did you get this information?

[phiont]

The script writer inserted an interesting comment into the dialog texts for the final conversation between Exile and Kreia.

 

Kreia: {Slight contempt, actually making a comment on the fact that there's no, "Luke, I am your father" event in this game} Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. {Shakes head} There is no great revelation, no great secret. {Quiet, but important, like conveying the player is the most important treasure in the galaxy} There is only you.

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia and Kotor II never said that neutrality is an option.

 

"Apathy [indifference/neutrality] is death!"-followed by a creepy echo by Atton and Brianna, then they attack. (Korriban Cave).

 

Kreia touched on the whole idea behind much of Kotor I & II: Sometimes you have to break a few rules to do what's right (Smallville, anybody? ). She just took it way overboard and turned it into something evil.

[Jediphile]

Wow, interesting topic here. It may have gone off in many different directions, but it's intersting, so who cares?

 

I'll just try to note a few things I noted on reading it all...

 

On there being no "grey" in the force, including Jolee:

 

Jolee is/was indeed grey - he rejects both the light and the dark while walking an extremely thin line between the extremes.

 

He is not Sith, but he is not light side either. Need proof? Note how he can use neither equipment restricted to light nor dark side. Nope, he cannot use the dark side stuff you find on Korriban, but nor can he use the Star Forge Robes or other light side stuff you can find in KotOR1. He is indeed neither light nor dark sided, and this is how it is reflected in game terms.

 

On Kreia being Kae:

 

I really felt this was a misconception going into the topic, but I must confess that there have been made compelling arguments for it being the case. It certainly has not been proven conclusively (or at all), but it seems equally difficult to disprove the theory.

 

I guess many deny the possibility because we just don't like the nice and innocent Handmaiden having such a nasty mother, though I guess it would speak volumes about how the storytellers feel about their mother-in-law, I guess

 

I still feel that the best argument against it is how the Handmaiden goes to great lengths to establish how Echani children look very much like their parents, and she bears the face of her mother. Even had Kreia been altered a lot by the dark side, surely the handmaiden sisters or someone would have noted a striking similarity, wouldn't they?

 

Other than that, the best argument against Kreia being Kae is simply that we never see the scene that the programmers would otherwise have been unable to resist doing:

 

Kreia: No, Servant of Atris - I am your mother!

 

Handmaiden: Noooooooooooo..... [jumps into conveniently-placed nearby bottomless pit...]

 

:D

 

 

As for Kreia's weird hatred of the force, it seems really odd to me that nobody has actually mentioned something I find really obvious here yet. Particularly when the whole subject has so clearly been beneath the surface of many points here.

 

Bear with me...

 

Note how G0-T0 and some others on Nar Shadaa are describing the Jedi/Sith wars and how people hate the Jedi on Dantooine. A lot of people seem to blame the Jedi for the status quo of the galaxy, and it's interesting how the events of KotOR1 have been named the "Jedi Civil War" when it was really a war between the Jedi and the Sith.

 

Why is that? Well, I mentioned G0-T0 because he actually says it best - few people see much distinction between Jedi and Sith - they just the same, except at different ends of the same philosophy. HK-47 actually says something similar if you ask him enough, as do many other people.

 

The key word I driving toward here is religion. As most common people see, the Jedi and Sith are fighting a religious war over doctrines. This is also stated several times.

 

Now, given how the force is described as a powerful energy/lifeforce that penetrates everything and yet - according to Kreia - has a will of its own, that seems to imply that the force itself is an intelligent and willful entity of some form. No, I'm not talking merely about the midi-chlorians here, who simply seem to facilitate interaction with the force (as Qui-Gon puts it, without the midi-chlorians, the Jedi would simply have no knowledge of the force) - I'm talking about the force itself.

 

Add all this up, and doesn't it begin to sound as if the force is all-powerful and dominating? It certainly implies spirituality in some form, so the next logical step would be to see the force as God as defined by christianity or other religions. The force is different, of course, since it is both good and evil (light side is God, dark side is Satan). Note how Sith lords often have haunting red eyes or similar demonic traits, while the Jedi are almost angelic in many cases (the robes are a bit of a giveaway).

 

So what does that have to do with Kreia? Well, Kreia is the Star Wars version of Ahab (from Melville's "Moby ****") - she is at war with God, i.e., the force. This might also be the reason the storytellers chose to maim her, just as Ahab was crippled (though Ahab lost a leg and Kreia a hand).

 

Of course, it's not entirely the same (the white whale of Moby **** is a metaphor for God, which Ahab feels crippled him, and whom he wants vengeance against), but I still feel that the comparison is fairly obvious and that Kreia certainly blames and hates the force in much the same and therefore seeks vengeance against it.

 

For example, we are never truly told why Kreia hates the force and seeks her vengeance against it, but like Ahab she is certainly willing to stab at the object of her hate with her last breath and is quite willing to sacrifice herself in the pursuit of her goal. Indeed, she knows full well and accepts that she must die as a consequence of her goal, just as Ahab did. And given the sly and deceptive creature that Kreia is, it is somehow fitting that we never learn her motives. Even had she said it, could we believe her?

 

The same of true of her madness - it is madness or not to just the same extent that Ahab's was. And does the Exile himself not end up mirroring the fate of the protagonist of that novel (Ishmael), as Kreia tries to enlist his aid in her struggle, and he alone is eventually turns from her (whether light or dark sided), just as Ishmael did? Sure, this is Star Wars, so it has to be scripted differently, and Kreia's goals are unknown to us for a long time, but other than that, doesn't the similarities seem rather striking? It certainly explained a lot to me...