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What Did You Think Of The 4 Jedi Masters?


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Hello There,

 

 

I was just wondering what did you think of all 4 jedi masters? did you think they were arrogent or did you well respected them?

 

Master Kavar,Master Vrook,Atris and the other Jedi master sorry forgot his name.

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I have to admit that I was disappointed of them, not only the mentioned ones, but also all of the Jedi Masters at this time. They seem to be weaklings, all of them. Though, of course, I respect that this weakness is a plot dependent necessity...

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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I was nice to them somewhat, I was understanding for the reason for casting me(exile) out, but I kept on and defended the reason for going to war.

 

 

was quite dissapointed when you finally gather them all and meet them at the rebuilt academy, keria kills them all after they try to take your powers, it's like Wtf, what did I just spend all that time gathering them for....

 

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I was nice to them somewhat, I was understanding for the reason for casting me(exile) out, but I kept on and defended the reason for going to war.

 

 

was quite dissapointed when you finally gather them all and meet them at the rebuilt academy, keria kills them all after they try to take your powers, it's like Wtf, what did I just spend all that time gathering them for....

 

 

Yeah, in my LS game, I hoped that

when the Masters begin to cut you off from the Force,

you'd be forced to fight all four of them solo.

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I liked the characters as individuals, each had a unique perspective about your ordeal. Although, I felt dealing with the jedi masters one at a time turned out... Anti-climactic.

 

1. They were incapable of answering most of your questions. Meaning they were irrelevant to the story as individual characters. It was only when you brought them together at Dantooine that they began to let the words fly.

 

2. They gave you the run-around when it came to answering the questions they could answer, and you really weren't supplied the dialogue options to pursue it.

 

The reason for this was explained at Dantooine, but I wanted to see a bit more character than plot from the jedi masters while dealing with them one on one. Honestly, they seemed too afraid of the PC- even a light side PC- to say anything substantial.

 

3. If you played dark side you learned their forms at the worst possible time- while you were fighting them. This really broke up the flow of the action to me.

 

It did provide for an interesting twist however. Smacking them down with their own lightsaber form after mere seconds of practice- when it took them years of dedication to master- was quite satisfying revenge. :devil:

 

Overall, I'd say the jedi master encounters were fairly well done, though they left you wanting a little more... More answers if you were a light sider, more fight if you were a dark sider. :wub:

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Hello There,

 

 

I was just wondering what did you think of all 4 jedi masters? did you think they were arrogent or did you well respected them?

 

Master Kavar,Master Vrook,Atris and the other Jedi master sorry forgot his name.

 

do any of your threads every consist of NON spoiler type discussion? <_<

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To be honest I was a little disappointed in the Masters, at least at the end. Obviously some were extremely arrogant (Particularly Vrook keeping up with character from K1 and of course Atris). Kavar and Zez-Kai on the other hand I found complex, particularly because of what they say about you, Revan, and the decisions of the Council. But it was good that the Masters didn't all think the same way or even those that thought alike believed what they did for the same reasons. But...

 

 

Everything went horribly wrong when you meet the Masters again in Dantooine. And I thought it was great how LS gets to interact and assist the Masters while DS get to kill them off. Also I don't mind Atris betrays you, in fact that I liked very much and wish I could have seen her wearing the other Darth Traya outfit. But when you get to Dantooine all of the Masters suddenly just go against you, no matter what they had said before in the game or how you had acted, they just want to eloiminate the threat you suddenly pose. When you meet with them separate as a LS, even Vrook, begins to question their decision to exile you, telling you you may be able to return to the Order somehow, and the decision about the war, some actually believing they were wrong on both occassions. Then on Dantooine all of that is just thrown out the window, you are a threat and have to be eliminated by disconnecting you to the Force no matter what they said before. What's worse is that I felt the only reason this happened was so Kreia would have an excuse to come in and kill them all plus it made the difference of the LS/DS encounters with the Masters feel completely pontless as it only ended up in the same place, the Masters think you are a menace and they end up dead. It was very disappointing and senseless, I found it went completely against the story they were telling and against the characters they were presenting and it really hurt my overall opinion of the game, as it felt they did it just so you have a reason to chase Kreia and nothing else.

 

 

For these reasons I found that during the search for the Masters I really liked where they were going with them but the resolution with the Masters in Dantooine just made me feel everything had been pointless, kinda like the ending.

 

My two cents.

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Maud Dib, your two cents may be worth a million bucks. Check the metaphorical exchange rate. :ninja:

 

I think you summed it up PERFECTLY.

 

I'd also like to add that the jedi masters serve as THE vehicle to shove the anti-hero theme further down the PC's throat.

 

It's kind of like, "Hey, kid, you fought in a war against our wishes, sure, but we're past that now- So we need something else to hate you for- SO YOU'RE THE NEW THREAT THAT'S GOING TO DESTROY US ALL!!! Even if you KNOW for certain you're not going to destroy us all, that's what you'll do because we say so!"

 

The jedi council in these games just keep on kicking and kicking you. :devil:

 

They help bring the real Kreia out into the light for what she really is. They also try to reveal what the Exile is all about, which is a mistake IMO- because it crosses the wires of everything you've been building up to. REDEMPTION. They are just so wrong about everything morally that it's hard to stomach them talking about you. You feel cheated.

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I felt so horribly cheated, being a totally goody goody LSer Male, I gathered all of the dudes on Dantooine then they freaking attacked me, leaving me no choice but to CRUSH THEM, because earlier in the game I ended up killing Zed Kay El or whatever his name is.

I suppose the real burning question i have built up is: On Nar Shadaa when you meet Zed Kay El (excuse misspeing) was it really neccesary to kill him? EG, was that the only option or could you choose to let him live and meet on Dantooine or do you have to KILL him. cos I have a 99% sure idea that I hit "let us end this" instead of continuing to talk. that really pissed me off. And I realised when the credits rolleed I never ended up getting HK 47. *sob sob*

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they pissed me off we can't let you keep using the force blah blah blah first on eto tough me dies i united em except vash and whoever was dead and i killed what was left all at the same time on my xbox version oh yeah i was Bad @ss

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They are just so wrong about everything morally that it's hard to stomach them talking about you. You feel cheated.

 

 

I agree with that feeling. The words that were coming out of their mouths were so obviously wrong. However, perhaps it was more that just a vehicle to make the Exile chase Kreia. One common thread about what the Masters were saying is the idea that perhaps their own teachings had caused people to fall to the dark side since they taught Kreia, Revan, Malak and now the Exile. So they were acting out of desperation, trying to uncreate a monster but not realizing that only this monster could save the galaxy.

 

If you look at like it in the context of desperation, I think it makes a bit of sense.

Still sad though.

 

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I actually think the encounter with the Four Jedi Masters (from a Lightside perspective) was quite fulfilling. And not a surprise.

 

The people working on Obsidian seem to have an adoration for this theme - the hero who returns home only to be rejected by those she has saved. (Previously they have explored it in Fallout) The Jedi Masters are grateful to the Exile for saving them, but they still feel that she poses a great danger to what they love. And this is what Kreia's point is. This is the ultimate story of Knights of the Old Republic II - The Jedi Order is flawed. It has lost touch with true morality, and you see it in the response of the Jedi Masters when faced with something that they fear, that they do not understand. Instead of accepting their proper role, their stated role, they cast it off, and try to make the problem go away.

 

This is consistent with the true nature of the Jedi Order. It is this fear that is its cancer, and leads it to its slow drifting downfall during the rise of the Galactic Empire.

 

I think you see hints of this in the game. In Atton's backstory if you develop it, in what Kreia talks about, and in the musings of Master Kavar. The Jedi seem to suspect that there is something wrong, but it is Kreia who truly sees it. Kreia is just as twisted; she merely goes the other route and tries to destroy /everything./ If you follow G0-T0's conversation paths, though, you see that only two people have the right idea, WHETHER LIGHT OR DARK - the Exile and Revan.

 

So cheers to you, Obsidian, for having the guts to have the Jedi Masters play this role in this story. I think that it was /gutsy/ for them to have this story. I think that they haven't delivered a poor ending simply because they don't bash you over the head with it and show a medal put around the Exile's neck or a Sith fleet heading towards the Core. Yes, I agree that from a production standpoint it's a bit rushed, but there's /no/ weakness in the story. Or, more importantly, in the philosophy they have constructed.

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1)The Exile was a wound in the force - he had to be disconnected once again. The council said they didn't want that - they just had to - and that they'll try not to hurt him (I miean "You will not feel any pain - do not worry"). They HAD to do what they did.

 

 

2)If Revan lisened to the council there would be no Jedi Civil War.The Mandalorians would be - eventually - driven away. The Order would have helped the Republic - when they knew how and when to do so.

 

PS.

 

The other explantion is that a Great Dark Power -known simply as The Developers - has turned the Council to the dark side (they put only DS dialogue in the game to release it by Xmas). :)

 

 

Maybe they are the "sith" Kreia mentioned- "evil greater than you could ever imagine " :)

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I agree with Csargemg- one of the main underlying themes in KotOR II is that the Jedi Order is flawed, that instead of confronting what it fears- the madalorians etc, they run away from it, or try and hide it under the carpet.

Did you not get the conversation with Visas after Dantooine? (I've only played it thru once, so I don't know if its optional or not). In it she managed to convince me that the council were wrong and that I wasn't a danger- rather the opposite.

This was too deeply engrained for them to just cast off,

even though they all quietly thought that perhaps they had made mistakes in the past, heck, half of them say they had regrets about exiling you in the first place

 

 

My favourite master was Atris- show me a young woman with a troubled past and white hair, and I'm on all fours! Did anyone else see the more than passing resemblence between Atris and Brigitte Fonda's Snow Queen?

Blue lorry yellow lorry blue lorry yellow lorry blorry. D'oh.

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Well, I think that the Dantooine encounter when a lightsider would have had more impact if:

 

As opposed to cutting off your connection to the force, the council does accept you as a Jedi. They then prepare a ceremony to heal your connection. So effectively the events are the same minus a line or two of dialogue.

 

At that point, Kreia busts in and kills them, giving her long speech about how the Exile has learned to live without the force, etc. It would make sense that she wants you to stay as a wound in the force, and it'd also make sense that the Jedi masters want to prevent you from being a threat but also want need a strong ally as you've proven yourself over the course of the game.

 

This, tied with the cut ending events with Kreia manipulating the party members I think would have led to a stronger end plot. Especially since the player will be full of rage since Kreia has destroyed your chance of becoming a true Jedi again, as well as is killing your friends. This would fit in with her 'breaking you' scheme.

 

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I agree with you Ace, except for what happens to the Masters, somehow in LS it just felt wrong to me. Just a gimmick used so that the PC would have to chase Traya.

 

The Masters attitude at the end just went against everything I experienced from them during the course of the game. There is a difference between being a potential threat and an imminent threat, the Exile was a potential threat. And judging the Masters extensive discourses on how they were wrong about casting the PC out instead of understand what happened to him/her and why, their sudden change in way of thinking didn't feel right to me at all, it detracted heavily from everything they talked about prior to that for me, and my liking for the game suffered from this. This was the point in the game where I stopped liking where the story was going and reevaluated my feelings about the game as a whole.

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Plano:

 

I agree, their desperation is obvious. It is also overwrought. The jedi order acted like drama queens when it came to dealing with you, and they did this simply so Kreia could step in and give her stirring speach and sit them down. Almost as if, on cue.

 

Ultimately, they did you wrong because it was what they wished. And was it what they wished because you had a defiant history with their order? No, it was for dramatic effect. If it was one of them standing in your shoes- would they have reacted the same way? No, I seriously doubt it.

 

The jedi order are not prone to acting rashly about things - even in times of the most hopeless desparation. This scene contradicts everything they are about. I mean, look at Revan. They gave Revan another chance when another was implausible, and Revan came through for them big time.

 

You could sum it up to mean that the jedi were sick and tired of giving second chances during this period of galactic turmoil, and I wouldn't argue with this. But I seriously doubt the designers were trying to do anything but find the easiest way to stir Kreia's madness... Look at what Ace suggested in this thread. I feel this is something the jedi order would actually do...

 

Like I said before, it just came off as needless kicking.

 

CSAR:

 

I disagree.

 

The Jedi Order's stance in this game was clearly inspired by the vatican's stance during World War II. It is clever writing, in this respect. But gutsy? I don't think they handled the dantooine scene with the exile in a gutsy way at all.

 

If some members of the jedi order (Kavar, Zez-Kai) realised that they may have been wrong about how they dealt with the exile the first time, well... see what I wrote above and you'll understand how I feel. :geek:

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