Gamespot Rumor: Troika shutting its doors

[mkreku]

It is theft.  Plain and simple.  They are taking something without paying the owner.  That's theft.  Color it any pretty words you want, but you can't turn a pig into a flamingo simply by calling it a bird.

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Look, I "stole" your post by replying to you. Does it make you hurt?

 

Do you see everything in black and white?

[Volourn]

"Don't be so hasty to call someone a thief."

 

All your pretty words and it all comes down to the same thing - taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission is theft. Period.

 

 

"Look, I "stole" your post by replying to you. Does it make you hurt?"

 

Nice try; but by signing up here we gave permission for our posts to be quoted. Nice try though.

 

 

"Do you see everything in black and white?"

 

Nope. Like I said before, I can understand someone stealing tos ruvive; but not computer games. Nice try though.

[~Di]

It is theft.  Plain and simple.  They are taking something without paying the owner.  That's theft.  Color it any pretty words you want, but you can't turn a pig into a flamingo simply by calling it a bird.

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Look, I "stole" your post by replying to you. Does it make you hurt?

 

Do you see everything in black and white?

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When it comes to theft I do. I write novels for a living. If someone reads my book without paying for it, they are stealing from me in a very real way. If someone downloads and plays a video game without paying for it, they are stealing from the developers of that game, since the only way they make a living is from people paying for the use of their product.

 

When people justify children stealing toys... not food, mind you, but TOYS... then they are teaching children that they are entitled to take whatever they want whenever they want it, and to hell with those who will be hurt by the process. Don't come crying to me when even more gaming companies go broke because millions of people worldwide are stealing their products rather than paying from them.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Looks like the mods are on holiday.

 

There is no justification for stealing games. Thats all there is to it.

[kefka]

When it comes to theft I do. I write novels for a living. If someone reads my book without paying for it, they are stealing from me in a very real way.

What if someone buys your book then lends it to me to read?

 

Am I a thief?

 

By your logic I am since I read it without paying.

 

And I bet most people against piracy have downloaded an MP3 at some point. Which makes them hypocrites.

[Darque]

When it comes to theft I do. I write novels for a living. If someone reads my book without paying for it, they are stealing from me in a very real way.

What if someone buys your book then lends it to me to read?

 

Am I a thief?

 

By your logic I am since I read it without paying.

 

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Not really since you have the genuine article.

 

Pirating games is different since it's effectively copying and redistributing.

 

If someone loans you something it's not theft, but if someone scans it into a PDF and gives it to you (using a novel as an example) then they have illegally made a copy... and thus that is theft.

[~Di]

When it comes to theft I do. I write novels for a living. If someone reads my book without paying for it, they are stealing from me in a very real way.

What if someone buys your book then lends it to me to read?

 

Am I a thief?

 

By your logic I am since I read it without paying.

 

And I bet most people against piracy have downloaded an MP3 at some point. Which makes them hypocrites.

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Oh don't be silly. Once you have purchased my book or a video game, you can lend it out, burn it, shred it, or do anything you wish with it... except post it on the internet for others to read en masse. However, if you read the book while sitting on the floor of the bookstore, then put it back, you have stolen it. If you read a copy of it that has been illegally posted on a website without my permission, you have stolen it. (And don't pull the libraries crap either; authors donate copies of books to libraries).

 

Bottom line, you're trying to prove that people who earn their living with intellectual property, like creating video games, making movies, or writing books aren't entitled to be paid for their work, and that the public at large is entitled to steal it. That simply isn't true, and you can scream that it is until you're blue in the face but that won't make you right.

[kefka]

Yes, but I still read the book without paying. So that is one less sale for you the writer.

 

And if every person who bought it lends to 2 or more friends just how much profit is being lost?

 

It's no coincidence that Mp3's swapped online is called "sharing". But it's still piracy.

 

Lending me a book is no different.

 

Btw, I'm not condoning piracy at all. But there's not much difference between lending and piracy. It is still reduced revenue for the publisher.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Immaterial theft is still theft. However, I dont think there should be the same punishment for clicking a few buttons as going into a store and actually taking something from a shelf.

 

 

Btw, is lending games to people illegal?(to your friends just like they borrow CDs or a cup of flour) It just struck me that it probably is.

 

 

Di> what genre are you in? any chance one could check out your books on amazon or similar?

[~Di]

There is a massive difference between lending and piracy. You can lend your clothes to a friend; lend your car to a friend; lend your jewelry to a friend. You have paid for it; it is now yours to do with as you please. A paperback novel will fall apart after 10-20 readings... unless it's posted on the web, where literally millions of people can read it for free. Same with video games. You can lend your copy out to perhaps a half-dozen folks or so... perfectly legal. But putting it out on the web makes it available to millions, if not billions of people.

 

The music industry watched profits plummet because music was being stolen en masse off the web. Courts have sided with the music industry because their livelihood was being stolen. Now websites offering music for download must pay into a royalty fund for musicians.

 

There is a massive difference between one book being lent a few times, and even being resold at a used book store (which really hurts authors immensely, since we're talking about such things), and offering the work for free to millions and millions of people. You are talking about the difference between losing a few hundred dollars in royalties for legal copies (of both books and games) being loaned to friends versus the loss of hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars when the property is available for illegal download, be that property illegal books, illegal video games, or illegal music.

 

And no, I don't download MP3's either.

[~Di]

Di> what genre are you in? any chance one could check out your books on amazon or similar?

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You could indeed, except that I keep my professional life and my gaming hobby totally separate. I don't give out my pen name, or the titles of my work. My publisher does not need to get crack-pot "fan" mail from folks around the web who do not like me (I know, impossible to believe ANYONE wouldn't like ME!! ) I only mention it (although my profession is old news for most folks around the forums) to give credence to the topic of intellectual property theft.

[kefka]

There is a massive difference between lending and piracy. You can lend your clothes to a friend; lend your car to a friend; lend your jewelry to a friend. You have paid for it; it is now yours to do with as you please.

OK, if I buy a DVD it's alright for me to lend that to 10 of my friends so they don't have to buy it themselves? Hmm, I don't think the movie studios would take kindly to that. In fact most copyright prohibits lending. But it's mine to do with as I please according to you.

 

The music industry watched profits plummet because music was being stolen en masse off the web.

Wrong!

 

The industry saw profits plummet because they overcharged for their music. Or putting out albums which had 1 or 2 good songs and the rest were crap. It's no wonder people download off the web. The file sharers will never stop when you have greedy publishers or organizations like the RIAA.

 

And no, I don't download MP3's either.

 

Anyway,

 

You said that reading your book without paying is theft. If someone lends me that book I didn't pay.

 

So it must be theft.

[Darque]

If someone lends me that book I didn't pay.

 

So it must be theft.

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Incorrect.

 

Your logic if flawed.

 

The "item" was originally purchased, and that's all that matters. You didn't steal a copy off the internet, nor did someone make a duplicate of it, nor did you shoplift.

 

Someone "purchased it" and as long as they don't duplicate it they can do what they want with what they legally purchased.

 

Mission failed.

[kirottu]

Di> what genre are you in? any chance one could check out your books on amazon or similar?

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You could indeed, except that I keep my professional life and my gaming hobby totally separate. I don't give out my pen name, or the titles of my work. My publisher does not need to get crack-pot "fan" mail from folks around the web who do not like me (I know, impossible to believe ANYONE wouldn't like ME!! ) I only mention it (although my profession is old news for most folks around the forums) to give credence to the topic of intellectual property theft.

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Actually my dream job would be a writer. That or a massager(sp? for some reason I want to put u between a and g).

[kefka]

Incorrect.

 

Your logic if flawed.

 

The "item" was originally purchased, and that's all that matters. You didn't steal a copy off the internet, nor did someone make a duplicate of it, nor did you shoplift.

 

Mission failed

Right, so like I said above, when I purchase a DVD I can lend it to all my friends to view.

 

Since I originally purchased it it's now my right to do whatever I please?

 

Not so according to copyright. Lending is also prohibited.

 

Mission accomplished!

[Shadowstrider]

Wrong!

 

The industry saw profits plummet because they overcharged for their music. Or putting out albums which had 1 or 2 good songs and the rest were crap. It's no wonder people download off the web. The file sharers will never stop when you have greedy publishers or organizations like the RIAA.

 

Yeah, thats why. If clothes cost less money people would still steal them. If food cost less money people would still steal it. If jewelry cost less money people would still steal it. If music cost less money people would still steal it.

 

I have never downloaded an MP3 off the web unless if was officially sanctioned, i.e. music off the publisher or artist's website. I should also point out the GLARING hole in your logic.

 

overcharged for their music.

 

How do you put a price on someone else creative work? Do you know how much work went into writing it, playing it, getting it published?

 

Or putting out albums which had 1 or 2 good songs and the rest were crap.

 

Opinion. Music isn't bad simply because you say its bad. YOU might not like it, others might love it.

 

I don't buy into this "CDs cost too much" nonesense. Most of filesharing comes from people with no financial responsibilities anyway, like high-school students, or people with few financial responsibilities, like college students (This is a generalization, obviously. Yes there are some high school and college students who have financial responsibilities, but they are few and far between. Most students think they have responsibility until they have to get a job and move into the real world).

 

People fence music because it is more convenient and free. Even when file-sharing charge monthly usage, or "per song pricing" you see users drop off. They go in search of another free source. "Why pay for something you can get for free" is the selfish logic.

 

Its called stealing.

[~Di]

OK, if I buy a DVD it's alright for me to lend that to 10 of my friends so they don't have to buy it themselves?

 

Yes, it is. It is not permissable for you to copy those DVD's, however.

 

Hmm, I don't think the movie studios would take kindly to that. In fact most copyright prohibits lending. But it's mine to do with as I please according to you.

 

Copyright laws do not prohibit lending. You really ought to look the facts up before making such statements.

 

Wrong!

 

The industry saw profits plummet because they overcharged for their music. Or putting out albums which had 1 or 2 good songs and the rest were crap. It's no wonder people download off the web. The file sharers will never stop when you have greedy publishers or organizations like the RIAA.

 

The courts disagreed with you. It is you who are wrong.

 

You said that reading your book without paying is theft. If someone lends me that book I didn't pay.

 

So it must be theft.

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Ah, but somebody DID pay for that book. The book itself was paid for, whether you paid for it or the friend who lent it to you paid for it. Same goes for a legally-purchased video game lent out to a friend, or rented legally via a game rental store. So long as the original game/book was legally purchased, it may be lent out or used as a coaster, whatever the purchaser desires... except it may NOT be duplicated. Duplicating either books or games or DVD's is not legal.

 

Anyway, you can pretend to be an expert on something about which your knowledge is clearly lacking if you wish, but copyright laws have defined my livelihood for more years than I now suspect you have even been alive, given the *cough* cleverness of your rhetoric. Whether you are ever willing to accept someone else may know more than you do about something or not is immaterial at this point. Others may learn something in reading our discussion.

 

Or not.

[kefka]

Yes, it is. It is not permissable for you to copy those DVD's, however.

No it is not permissable. Nor is it for you to lend that DVD to however many people you want.

Copyright laws do not prohibit lending. You really ought to look the facts up before making such statements.

I did look up the facts. The evidence is right before me on the inside of over 50 DVD cases.

 

The courts disagreed with you. It is you who are wrong.

The courts disagreed with me? I wasn't aware that I was a defendant.

 

Anyway, you can pretend to be an expert on something about which your knowledge is clearly lacking if you wish, but copyright laws have defined my livelihood for more years than I now suspect you have even been alive, given the *cough* cleverness of your rhetoric.

I never claimed to be an expert, nor do I engage in "rhetoric", but it's clear that lending has the same result as piracy, albeit on a much smaller scale. If I lend a book, film, whatever, that is one less sale of that product. Fact. You can argue against that all you want. It might be impossible to prevent lending but that doesn't mean publishers/studios are happy about it.

[kirottu]

Yes, it is. It is not permissable for you to copy those DVD's, however.

No it is not permissable. Nor is it for you to lend that DVD to however many people you want.

Copyright laws do not prohibit lending. You really ought to look the facts up before making such statements.

I did look up the facts. The evidence is right before me on the inside of over 50 DVD cases.

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I think you have misunderstood something. As a private person it is okay to me to loan my dvd to other private person, no money involved. I think you mixed this thing with those companies that rent movies.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It does actually say lending is prohibited on most DvD's. What it dosnt say is what form that lending would take. Common sense would seem to dictate that the lending involves some kind of finiancial gain.

 

While it may be technically illegal to lend something to someone else it's not likely that anyone would know, or have the powers to enforce.

[~Di]

How interesting. My DVD's say simply: "WARNING: Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unauthorized reproduction, distribution or exhibition of copyrighted motion pictures, video tapes or video disks."

Perhaps the laws of other countries are different?

 

Okay, enough silliness. Here is the Government site on Copyright Law . Since it is impossible for me to prove a negative, i.e. point to something which does not exist, the burden of proof now shifts to you. Please point out where Copyright Law makes it illegal for individual to lend legally-acquired books, CDs, or DVDs.

 

We'll wait. *taps foot and hums*

 

You may also wish to look up the recent court decision which sided with the RIAA and declared Napster's "sharing" site to be an illegal infringement on copyright laws, which caused great financial harm to the music industry. You can say it didn't, but as I've pointed out, the court disagreed with you.

[kefka]

Perhaps the laws of other countries are different?

Yes, that's possible.

 

I'm not in the US (the UK). Copyright laws are often very similar though. And most DVDs have lending prohibited here. It's totally unenforcable but they state it anyway. They clearly believe that lending, in whatever form, reduces the number of copies sold. I don't blame them.

 

You may also wish to look up the recent court decision which sided with the RIAA and declared Napster's "sharing" site to be an illegal infringement on copyright laws, which caused great financial harm to the music industry.

I never disputed that. What I'm saying is that online sharing is not the sole reason. The RIAA likes to pretend that it is. So they go after sharers as if the whole problem will simply disappear. It won't. There's a reason that downloading music is popular but the RIAA is clueless. Easier to find a scapegoat than look closer to home.

[Child of Flame]

You could indeed, except that I keep my professional life and my gaming hobby totally separate.  I don't give out my pen name, or the titles of my work.  My publisher does not need to get crack-pot "fan" mail from folks around the web who do not like me (I know, impossible to believe ANYONE wouldn't like ME!!  )  I only mention it (although my profession is old news for most folks around the forums) to give credence to the topic of intellectual property theft.

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Could you PM me your pen name, it intrigues me that there's an author down the road from me whose books I haven't yet read.

[Darque]

And most DVDs have lending prohibited here.

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now that's extreme.

[~Di]

Extreme indeed! *shock* However, since Shadow Paladin is also in the UK IIRC, I believe we have gotten to the bottom of this earth-shattering dispute! Clearly UK and USA Copyright Laws are ... different.

 

I did not know that, and I should since my work has been reprinted in the UK dozens of times. *sigh* Horrors. I do not know everything. What a terrible shock!!

 

@Servant: No, I'm sorry, sweetie... I'm serious when I say I don't give out my pen name. I keep my two lives totally separate.