Ukraine Conflict - conflict continues

[Malcador]

44 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Arent those banned over there?

Ukraine didn't sign onto the CCM, so no big deal in that regard.

Stupid HRW, don't they know the way the rule based order works.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Malcador

[HoonDing]

It's okay if the good guys are using it. And if "innocent" civilians die, well after all God will know his own.

[Elerond]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

Ukraine didn't sign onto the CCM, so no big deal in that regard.

Stupid HRW, don't they know the way the rule based order works.

Cluster munitions aren't new in Ukraine-Russia war, but USA has not yet has been willing to give them to Ukraine  

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/29/cluster-munition-use-russia-ukraine-war

 

[Malcador]

30 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Cluster munitions aren't new in Ukraine-Russia war, but USA has not yet has been willing to give them to Ukraine  

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/29/cluster-munition-use-russia-ukraine-war

 

Yes, that's what HRW is speaking about and drawing everyone's ire.  Sort of funny to watch really.

[Mamoulian War]

This is made me chuckle. UA Naftogaz has started cases on US arbitration courts against RU Gazprom, that during the time, when they shot videos how the EU is gonna freeze, they did not move contracted volume of gas through Naftogaz pipelines, and are demanding compensation for breach of contract Of course, Russia is already whining

 

Naftogaz has already won few billions from Russia, as a compensation for lost assets and revenue in Crimea. So I hope they will be successful with this as well. Nothing hurts Russian mobsters more, than losing money.

 

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/7/7410322/

[BruceVC]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:58 PM, HoonDing said:

It's okay if the good guys are using it. And if "innocent" civilians die, well after all God will know his own.

But you dont care about innocent civilians who get killed, why would this bother you now?

[Malcador]

Sweden in NATO, wonder what Erdogan got in return.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

52 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Sweden in NATO, wonder what Erdogan got in return.

Armenia.

[Zoraptor]

It's be Kurd related, if it's a quid pro quo situation. May not be though, the whole delay may just have been Erdogan posturing for electoral benefit- and that election is been and gone.

Most of his supporters are stupid enough to believe him if he says it was a great victory with major concessions achieved, even if in reality he folded like a deck chair.

[Mamoulian War]

One of the RU commanders responsible for killing 27 civilians in Vinitsia with a missile attack aimed at the city square last year, has been found dead. He’s been shot while jogging in Krasnodar.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/11/7410768/

[Keyrock]

Biden Administration: "The use of cluster munitions is reprehensible and a war crime."

Also Biden Administration: /sends cluster munitions to Ukraine

So, by the Biden Administration's own definition, the Biden Administration is now complicit in a war crime. And yes I'm aware the Russians have used them too, that also makes them war criminals, by the Biden Administration's definition, but in no way absolves the Biden Administration of, by their own definition, being complicit in a war crime.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Keyrock

[Zoraptor]

Not inherently a war crime since the US is not a signatory to the relevant treaty (nor are Ukraine or Russia); unless they're used indiscriminately/ disproportionately in civilian areas. So merely sending them isn't 'illegal'*.

But yeah, it will be a war crime since Ukraine has regularly been using cluster munitions in attacks on Donetsk city since 2014 (per NYT, so not exactly pro Russian).

Probably more embarrassing than the two facedness of the posturing is the rationale: running out of conventional ammunition to send.

*internationally at least because there's a well akshually about the whole thing: sending CM with a dud rate of more than 1% is illegal under US Law (Consolidated Appropriations Act 2010, for anyone wondering, signed by notorious peacenik GWBush), and even the Pentagon claims 2.5% for the munitions being sent. A recent Congressional Research Service report however gives, hmm, 10-30% as observed dud rate.

[Mamoulian War]

2 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

One of the RU commanders responsible for killing 27 civilians in Vinitsia with a missile attack aimed at the city square last year, has been found dead. He’s been shot while jogging in Krasnodar.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/11/7410768/

Heh, if someone was wondering, how he was found so easily

https://www.strava.com/activities/9400020178

 

Edit: LOL, one of the likes on this workout plan was by Kyrilo Budanov (chief of UA “CIA”)  (probably fake account, but fitting trolling for mass murderer)…

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

One of the RU commanders responsible for killing 27 civilians in Vinitsia with a missile attack aimed at the city square last year, has been found dead. He’s been shot while jogging in Krasnodar.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/11/7410768/

Sort of funny to see people excited for this to go on after the war. Really shows you how bankrupt the rules based order is, heh. People still don't appreciate the dangers of sharing things online though, tsk tsk.

  

1 hour ago, Keyrock said:

Biden Administration: "The use of cluster munitions is reprehensible and a war crime."

Also Biden Administration: /sends cluster munitions to Ukraine

So, by the Biden Administration's own definition, the Biden Administration is now complicit in a war crime. And yes I'm aware the Russians have used them too, that also makes them war criminals, by the Biden Administration's definition, but in no way absolves the Biden Administration of, by their own definition, being complicit in a war crime.

Not breaking any rules.  Now I think the parsing is, well, cluster weapons are bad but they are used in a defensive context so there's no moral issue. 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russians-died-ukraine-data-shows-moscow-hides-100997994 

Here is a sobering story about the number of Russians killed in Ukraine, 50k and the Ruskies are reporting 6k dead. And this is deaths, not people wounded

I always wonder how many Russians believe the constant propaganda, lies  and half-truths?

[BruceVC]

50 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Not inherently a war crime since the US is not a signatory to the relevant treaty (nor are Ukraine or Russia); unless they're used indiscriminately/ disproportionately in civilian areas. So merely sending them isn't 'illegal'*.

But yeah, it will be a war crime since Ukraine has regularly been using cluster munitions in attacks on Donetsk city since 2014 (per NYT, so not exactly pro Russian).

Probably more embarrassing than the two facedness of the posturing is the rationale: running out of conventional ammunition to send.

*internationally at least because there's a well akshually about the whole thing: sending CM with a dud rate of more than 1% is illegal under US Law (Consolidated Appropriations Act 2010, for anyone wondering, signed by notorious peacenik GWBush), and even the Pentagon claims 2.5% for the munitions being sent. A recent Congressional Research Service report however gives, hmm, 10-30% as observed dud rate.

Nah, we good with cluster bombs being sent to Ukraine. As mentioned the Russians are using them so  " when in Rome " and all that 

If you or anyone else  had made a single  post on this thread about how concerned you were with the Ruskies using cluster bombs in Ukraine then my opinion would be different 

 

[Chilloutman]

OK, I am not expert, but isn't cluster munition like premium way how to clear path through mine fields?

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

OK, I am not expert, but isn't cluster munition like premium way how to clear path through mine fields?

Thats interesting, I suppose they could be used like that?

[Gfted1]

Is napalm illegal now, US or otherwise?

[Malcador]

https://www.politico.eu/article/volodymyr-zelenskyy-nato-draft-text-on-ukraine-membership-timeline/

Think he's got the wrong idea of the balance in the parties here.

  

18 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Is napalm illegal now, US or otherwise?

Don't think so, just bad when used against civilian targets (pretty much like every weapon I guess).  You can still use white phosphorous to burn civilians to death though, just say you were using it for obscuring purposes and it was a regrettable accident.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Malcador

[kanisatha]

17 hours ago, Malcador said:

Sweden in NATO, wonder what Erdogan got in return.

Biden green-lighting new F-16s for Turkey in the face of congressional opposition.

[kanisatha]

32 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

OK, I am not expert, but isn't cluster munition like premium way how to clear path through mine fields?

Yes. And that's why they're being cleared for export, as massive amounts of Russian mining in their frontline areas is what is accounting for 90% of Ukrainian hardship in advancing into those areas. Russian troops are no obstacle; those mines are a huge obstacle.

Also, not all cluster munitions are the same. US cluster munitions, as employed in ATACMS and cruise missiles, are very advanced compared with Russian cluster munitions, and include auto-deactivation whereby they deactivate themselves after they've been sitting around undetonated on the ground for a little while.

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Biden green-lighting new F-16s for Turkey in the face of congressional opposition.

But you talk about Erdogan flip-flopping, 2 days ago he was saying he first wanted EU entry talks revived and then he agrees to Sweden joining

But either way its good news, well done @Azdeus and @Pidesco. You guys dont have to worry about a Russian invasion now 

Another win for Putin and stopping NATO enlargement 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, kanisatha said:

Yes. And that's why they're being cleared for export, as massive amounts of Russian mining in their frontline areas is what is accounting for 90% of Ukrainian hardship in advancing into those areas. Russian troops are no obstacle; those mines are a huge obstacle.

Also, not all cluster munitions are the same. US cluster munitions, as employed in ATACMS and cruise missiles, are very advanced compared with Russian cluster munitions, and include auto-deactivation whereby they deactivate themselves after they've been sitting around undetonated on the ground for a little while.

Thats interesting, good to know. So the cluster bombs can clear minefields?

[Keyrock]

2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Not inherently a war crime since the US is not a signatory to the relevant treaty (nor are Ukraine or Russia); unless they're used indiscriminately/ disproportionately in civilian areas. So merely sending them isn't 'illegal'*.

But yeah, it will be a war crime since Ukraine has regularly been using cluster munitions in attacks on Donetsk city since 2014 (per NYT, so not exactly pro Russian).

Probably more embarrassing than the two facedness of the posturing is the rationale: running out of conventional ammunition to send.

*internationally at least because there's a well akshually about the whole thing: sending CM with a dud rate of more than 1% is illegal under US Law (Consolidated Appropriations Act 2010, for anyone wondering, signed by notorious peacenik GWBush), and even the Pentagon claims 2.5% for the munitions being sent. A recent Congressional Research Service report however gives, hmm, 10-30% as observed dud rate.

Yes, I am aware that the US did not sign the treaty outlawing cluster munitions. My point was that the Biden Administration themselves condemned the use of cluster munitions earlier and are now shipping them to Ukraine. Though, to be fair, after fact checking myself, the exact language was potentially a war crime. So I will amend my previous statement to the Biden Administration is by its own definition complicit in potentially a war crime. 

Here's the quote, by the way, from last year. First the question a reporter asked:

There are reports of illegal cluster bombs and vacuum bombs being used by the Russians. If that’s true, what is the next step of this administration?  And is there a red line for how much violence will be tolerated against civilians in this manner that’s illegal and potentially a war crime?

And here's the reply from White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki:

It is, it would be.  I don’t have any confirmation of that.  We have seen the reports.  If that were true, it would potentially be a war crime.