The All Things Political Topic - Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, majestic said:

Whee, that reminds me, we'll also have a presidential election next Sunday. That'll be amusing, but only mildly. I'm going to cast my lot in with the guy from the Beer Party, because there are no real alternatives (well, there's a Nazi with a decidedly strange name for one*, a gay Nazi, a lawyer Nazi and some other joke candidates to pick from too). If it comes to a second round, which seems rather unlikely at the moment, I'll go with the sitting president, so he can serve his second time, or potentially more likely, cost us a funeral with full honors (currently 78, heavy smoker and the term is six years).

Oh, right, the reason, well... our current Mr. President disqualified himself after saying that it might be time to observe what's happening on the energy markets. Observe, mind you. Not do anything about it. In late September. No, you dillweed, the time to observe was last year, and to act - well, it was high noon in February.

*Mr. Rosenkranz, dunno, is that just me showing some everyday racism or is it weird that someone with a name like Rosenkranz is part of a party that grew out of NSDAP leftovers?

It doesnt sound realistic that you would have so many Nazi candidates, do they publicly say they Nazi or is this your definition of them?

What evidence is there that they Nazi?

 

[Pidesco]

8 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

It doesnt sound realistic that you would have so many Nazi candidates, do they publicly say they Nazi or is this your definition of them?

What evidence is there that they Nazi?

 

If they're like every other "former" Nazi Party in Europe, but who now just purportedly ask questions and are very concerned about things, they sound like one of these every time they talk:

 

[Chairchucker]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

do they publicly say they Nazi

Disclaimer: I don't know who the people in question are or even what country this is.

 

But the idea of waiting for someone to proclaim they are a Nazi before describing them as such is a bit laughable.

[BruceVC]

53 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Disclaimer: I don't know who the people in question are or even what country this is.

 

But the idea of waiting for someone to proclaim they are a Nazi before describing them as such is a bit laughable.

So in the arena of politics  we just call people Nazi even if they dont support Nazi ideology?

You would  do well working in the Russian communication  bureau 

[Amentep]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

So in the arena of politics  we just call people Nazi even if they dont support Nazi ideology?

You would  do well working in the Russian communication  bureau 

"It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and water rolls off its back like a duck - but I just can't be sure its a duck until it specifically self-identifies as one..." 

[Zoraptor]

5 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

But the idea of waiting for someone to proclaim they are a Nazi before describing them as such is a bit laughable.

Just wait for the inevitable 'S in NSDAP stands for Socialist --> --> Nazis have to be left wing!' arguments.

[Gfted1]

In Europe, you can spit in any direction and hit a Nazi! r00fles! 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

3 hours ago, Amentep said:

"It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and water rolls off its back like a duck - but I just can't be sure its a duck until it specifically self-identifies as one..." 

 

[Elerond]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

So in the arena of politics  we just call people Nazi even if they dont support Nazi ideology?

You would  do well working in the Russian communication  bureau 

It is difficult these days, considering for example that in Italy party that won the election Brothers of Italy was founded by original fascist and its leader has multiple times proclaimed that Mussolini was great man and politician. But quite lot people seem to think that calling them fascists is just sore losers 

If it looks like duck, moves like duck, sounds like duck, we should give it benefit of doubt

[majestic]

11 hours ago, BruceVC said:

It doesnt sound realistic that you would have so many Nazi candidates, do they publicly say they Nazi or is this your definition of them?

What evidence is there that they Nazi?

Well, not that it will convince you, but the Freedom Party's first chairman was former Nazi Minister of Agriculture and SS Brigardeführer Anton Reinthaller. In more recent times, long term leader Jörg Haider publicly praised Third Reich policies (particularily labour policies, with a wink at useless asylum seekers and migrants not pulling their weight), successor Heinz Strache regulariy participated in Neo-Nazi protests and Wehrsportübungen (use google translate, serviceable enough) and still retains contacts, and their current party leader is responsible for some of the party's best slogans, including but not limited to:

• Heimatliebe statt Marokkanerdiebe (Patriotism instead of Moroccan thieves!).
• Wien darf nicht Chicago werden (Vienna must not become Chicago, which back then caused the mayor of Chicago call and ask what's so bad about his city)
• Daham statt Islam (Home instead of Islam)

Sometimes they pick up a caricature or two and change it:

Original:

Changed:

Changes, focused:

I'm not sure you'll get it, so let me spell it out for you: That's a whole bunch of anti-semitic imagery that could as easily have been taken from the Stürmer.

Sometimes their members have songbooks full of great songs at home.

Quote

 

Last week the Falter weekly reported that Landbauer's student fraternity had produced a song book in 1997 that included lyrics such as “Step on the gas*… we can make it to seven million”.

Six million Jews were killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust during World War Two, many of them in gas chambers at industrial-scale extermination camps such as Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Several leading members of the FPÖ – a party created by former Nazis in the 1950s – belong to student fraternities, some of which believe in a “Greater Germany” to include Austria.

*Posters note: Steig aufs Gas is German for hurry up / go faster - put the pedal to the metal, is the most direct translation, as it were. Use more gas.

 

Well, you know, @Amentep has it right. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck. Nazis gonna Nazi.

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

In Europe, you can spit in any direction and hit a Nazi! r00fles! 

Yes, that is why we put in place systems where other countries and international organizations will supervise that past doesn't repeat itself. But these day such is seen as awful overreach of undemocratic institutions hindering free democracy

[Gfted1]

I know you guys are all about the self flagellation, but it sure seems like that word is thrown around pretty casually. Whatev, not my problem.

[Pidesco]

This is glorious. @Gromnirmight like it. 

 

[Pidesco]

1 minute ago, Gfted1 said:

I know you guys are all about the self flagellation, but it sure seems like that word is thrown around pretty casually. Whatev, not my problem.

In Portugal the current far right party has a bunch of members who are former members of PNR an openly neonazi party. One of their preferred slogans was the slogan of the Portuguese dictatorship. They swear they are neither fascists nor nazis. 

In Brazil, Bolsonaro's supporters also like to use the same fascist slogan I mentioned above. They also swear they aren't fascists. 

In Sweden the current far right party was the neonazi party. They still count among their number a bunch of original neonazis. They swear they are neither fascists nor nazis. 

As you can read above, analogous things are true of the far right parties in Austria and Italy. 

 

So not that casually, unfortunately. 

[Gfted1]

All nazis are fascist, but not all fascist are nazis, do I have that right? Nazis are a wing of fascism?

[majestic]

35 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

In Portugal the current far right party has a bunch of members who are former members of PNR an openly neonazi party. One of their preferred slogans was the slogan of the Portuguese dictatorship. They swear they are neither fascists nor nazis. 

In Brazil, Bolsonaro's supporters also like to use the same fascist slogan I mentioned above. They also swear they aren't fascists. 

In Sweden the current far right party was the neonazi party. They still count among their number a bunch of original neonazis. They swear they are neither fascists nor nazis. 

As you can read above, analogous things are true of the far right parties in Austria and Italy. 

Oh, that's one thing I forgot to mention, the Freedom Party's members of parliament used to come to the opening of parilament wearing cornflowers (it is tradition to wear flowers in one of your open button holes on opening day). The explanation given - in public - is that they picked cornflowers becaus they are blue (the party color) and that the flowers are pretty. Well, no doubt about either of those. They ARE blue. They ARE pretty.

They were also used by the Austrian NSDAP branch as secret code to recognize each other during our own ill-fated fascist government (with the dictator coming from my dear friends, the conservative party - whose images still adorn the party headquarter, because far be it from only Nazi follow ups not learning anything from the past) where the NSDAP was outlawed. Yeah, every time someone cried Nazi, and they basically would go:

Nazi successor party founded by prominent SS members wear secret code flowers that helped Nazis recognize each other in the past. Just a coincidence. Nothing to see here, don't play the Nazi card.

Edited October 3, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

Well, not that it will convince you, but the Freedom Party's first chairman was former Nazi Minister of Agriculture and SS Brigardeführer Anton Reinthaller. In more recent times, long term leader Jörg Haider publicly praised Third Reich policies (particularily labour policies, with a wink at useless asylum seekers and migrants not pulling their weight), successor Heinz Strache regulariy participated in Neo-Nazi protests and Wehrsportübungen (use google translate, serviceable enough) and still retains contacts, and their current party leader is responsible for some of the party's best slogans, including but not limited to:

• Heimatliebe statt Marokkanerdiebe (Patriotism instead of Moroccan thieves!).
• Wien darf nicht Chicago werden (Vienna must not become Chicago, which back then caused the mayor of Chicago call and ask what's so bad about his city)
• Daham statt Islam (Home instead of Islam)

Sometimes they pick up a caricature or two and change it:

Original:

Changed:

Changes, focused:

I'm not sure you'll get it, so let me spell it out for you: That's a whole bunch of anti-semitic imagery that could as easily have been taken from the Stürmer.

Sometimes their members have songbooks full of great songs at home.

Well, you know, @Amentep has it right. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck. Nazis gonna Nazi.

You make good  points in this debate 

But maybe  some of them are just concerned citizens afraid of  foreign domination ? Surly you can't blame hard working landlords  and small business owners for being afraid for there investments ?

[InsaneCommander]

1 hour ago, Pidesco said:

In Portugal the current far right party has a bunch of members who are former members of PNR an openly neonazi party. One of their preferred slogans was the slogan of the Portuguese dictatorship. They swear they are neither fascists nor nazis. 

In Brazil, Bolsonaro's supporters also like to use the same fascist slogan I mentioned above. They also swear they aren't fascists. 

In Sweden the current far right party was the neonazi party. They still count among their number a bunch of original neonazis. They swear they are neither fascists nor nazis. 

As you can read above, analogous things are true of the far right parties in Austria and Italy. 

 

So not that casually, unfortunately. 

I saw a video with Giorgia Meloni being asked if she was fascist and she didn't deny it, just kind of changed the subject. Sorry, I can't find the video now. Did anyone else see it?

[Amentep]

1 hour ago, KP From Another World said:

You make good  points in this debate 

But maybe  some of them are just concerned citizens afraid of  foreign domination ? Surly you can't blame hard working landlords  and small business owners for being afraid for there investments ?

Did you post from the wrong account?  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

14 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Did you post from the wrong account?  

Maybe I did, maybe I didn't.

 

[Gorth]

7 hours ago, Elerond said:

It is difficult these days, considering for example that in Italy party that won the election Brothers of Italy was founded by original fascist and its leader has multiple times proclaimed that Mussolini was great man and politician. But quite lot people seem to think that calling them fascists is just sore losers 

If it looks like duck, moves like duck, sounds like duck, we should give it benefit of doubt

Yeah. Wait and see if it also walks in goose step. Then it's not a duck but a nationalist "patriot"!

 

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, majestic said:

Well, not that it will convince you, but the Freedom Party's first chairman was former Nazi Minister of Agriculture and SS Brigardeführer Anton Reinthaller. In more recent times, long term leader Jörg Haider publicly praised Third Reich policies (particularily labour policies, with a wink at useless asylum seekers and migrants not pulling their weight), successor Heinz Strache regulariy participated in Neo-Nazi protests and Wehrsportübungen (use google translate, serviceable enough) and still retains contacts, and their current party leader is responsible for some of the party's best slogans, including but not limited to:

• Heimatliebe statt Marokkanerdiebe (Patriotism instead of Moroccan thieves!).
• Wien darf nicht Chicago werden (Vienna must not become Chicago, which back then caused the mayor of Chicago call and ask what's so bad about his city)
• Daham statt Islam (Home instead of Islam)

Sometimes they pick up a caricature or two and change it:

Original:

Changed:

Changes, focused:

I'm not sure you'll get it, so let me spell it out for you: That's a whole bunch of anti-semitic imagery that could as easily have been taken from the Stürmer.

Sometimes their members have songbooks full of great songs at home.

Well, you know, @Amentep has it right. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck. Nazis gonna Nazi.

Thanks for clarifying, I have an interest in this particular topic and EU  country so I am going to spend some time researching what you have mentioned and I will hopefully get back to you (I say hopefully because sometimes I get distracted )

 

8 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

I know you guys are all about the self flagellation, but it sure seems like that word is thrown around pretty casually. Whatev, not my problem.

Yes this is really the point I was making and my concern. This forum is not that bad but what I have noticed the last 5-7 years in many political and ideological debates is that some people on  the left\liberals\Democrats have a bad habit of labelling anyone on the right/Conservatives in an extreme and exaggerated way and accusing  them of being racist\fascist\Nazi as a way to get people emotional and hopefully politically motivated 

And its important to note its not everyone and sometimes people are well meaning but they are manipulated into believing something is more real " right-wing " than it really is. For example expecting people to immigrate legally to your country is not right-wing. Its just prudent and it shows you understand the risk of unmanaged immigration and its impact on the limited resources and social conditions in every country

And  then you have worst possible outcome of this abuse and misuse of words like Neo-Nazi where Putin justified this hyperbole as one of the reasons for the invasion of Ukraine and some people believed it and still do and repeat this. Despite the fact that Zelensky is Jewish and Neo-Nazi dont vote or support Jews and he won the 2019 election by 72%. So its highly unlikely  Ukraine would be  mostly a Neo-Nazi country yet people, like @ComradeYellow, still  believe this and use this to justify the war

So unfortunately the Nazi card does get played  but sometimes its valid so we must separate the allegations 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by BruceVC

[Lexx]

8 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

I know you guys are all about the self flagellation, but it sure seems like that word is thrown around pretty casually. Whatev, not my problem.

In a way I'm kind of not surprised that americans don't recognize nazis.

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Elerond said:

 

If it looks like duck, moves like duck, sounds like duck, we should give it benefit of doubt

But Elerond what if it sounds sometimes like a duck, doesnt move like a duck and doesnt look like a duck....is it still a duck?

[BruceVC]

42 minutes ago, Lexx said:

In a way I'm kind of not surprised that americans don't recognize nazis.

I think one of the reasons we disagree on certain topics is we dont have the same definitions of certain words that get used to describe political events and or societal realities 

And Im talking about simple things that I used to assume we all agreed on like the definition of racism, for example being concerned about illegal immigration doesnt make you racist

But going back to your post, whats your definition of being Nazi?