Ranking the Class Tiers - A difficult task

[Elric Galad]

Hi,

I wanted to start a topic about something that we haven't done so often here : trying to make class Tiers. The reasons why it wasn't made so often IMHO are because :

- The game is fairly balanced. As you'll see below, I don't believe that there is actually a bad class as a whole,

- Do we want to consider cheese ? What means a Tier if one can break the game ?

- Multiclass and Singleclass need separate ranking (but that's what I did)

 

Therefore, before starting a review, I wanted to state the assumptions I made :

First, a Tier means "how easy it is to include a given class in a proper party build, how easy it is to find a role for it". A high tier is fairly easy to include, a low tier would require specific care, maybe even a niche build to include without feeling gimped. As you will see, there is a grand total of 3 Single Classes that I really find gimped in basically all case, or at least not robust enough compared to respective multiclasses.

I'm obviously excluding mods.

I'm excluding cheese builds.

I'm excluding solo (a whole different game).

I'm not discussing in detail multiclass options. There are some combinations that doesn't work (especially with subclasses) but I'm considering each class separately for MC.

So here we go. The result is objectively quite subective, but I think the topic is interesting enough to make a try. For each class, I'm listing its main selling points, and I'm adding sometimes a short synthesis, especially for lower tiers.

 

Multi Class ranking :

 

Great+ :

Chanter :
- 2 passive Chants are super good support
- Chanter's summons are the strongest (ancient weapons especially)
- Can do the above almost passively, so you have to do whatever you want and/or wears the heaviest armor

 

Great :

Druid :
- Best healers
- very serious DoT, raw damages helping circumvent PEN issue from casters
- some very good CC
- Decent Summons

 

Cipher :
- Charm effects
- Decent secondary healer at the cost of 1 ability point
- Disintigrate is sick
- Ancestors Memory is top tier party support even if you don't cheese
- Weapon bonus damages and PEN

 

Rogue :
- Around +100% weapon damages and a raw DoT. Everything else is icing

 

Paladin :
- So tanky
- LoH is arguably the best single target heal
- Instant rez
- Auras are about half as good as Chanter's double chants, which is already very good

 

Monk :
- So many passive buffs for both caster and martial multiclasses. Probably overall the best "other class support" multiclass
- Summons on top of this, which use renewable ressources

 

Solid :

These ones worth including, but I feel that they are less good at filling a specific role as the one above.

 

Fighter :
- "Free and instant" +3 engagement slots
- Easiest access to Accuracy self buff (though non stacking), sometimes quite important for caster MC
- Basically invincible with Unbending active
A living crowd control. Does not do much more apart poking reasonably hard. (Oh, and Tactician belongs to the upper tier).

 

Wizard :
- Many self buffs, especially defensive. Wiz is a martial tank
- Decent Crowd Control, debuff damages and summons
Wiz in this Tier is probably the weirdest choice in this list. The thing is, I'm often struggling to give MC wizard a proper focus. You need to have a proper plan for them (like tanking, spamming Minoletta burst, etc) or you'll end up casting only a couple self buff and underpenetratind with your AoE spells. Wiz can be God tier with Wall of Draining abuse though and in general, Wizards will rock with the proper combo.

 

Priest :
- Heal, rez and party buff. Even their summon is a healer.
- Various other spells that do various other useful things. 
Priests are a bit unfocused, and get some mehish spells at low levels. I often find they lack a bit of punch (as Multiclass of course).
Note that Priest is also technically the most abusable class through BDD and SoT.

 

Solid minus :

Same as above, but struggle a bit at being better than other combinations.

 

Barbarian :
- Some tanking, but not on par with Pal, Wiz and Fighter
- Frenzy lines, especially Spirit Tornado, is arguably the most cost effective effect of the game (only contest is SC barbarian Tier 9 shouts)
- Blood thirst is combo material.
Barbarian suffers from mehish active abilities, the downgrade of Carnage from PoE1 (which was the pillar of the class design) and bonuses on kills that aren't that reliable. That being said the class offers decent self buffs, mobility and passive. 

 

Ranger :
- Pet is basically a passive summon, that you can stack with other summons. And summons are good.
- Plenty of stackable accuracy
- Oh boy, I love Tranquilizing Shot, most reliable buff remover.
Pet is hard to handle. Ghostheart could be considered as Solid tier instead of Solid- for this sole reason. Rangers are a bit unfocused, require a ton of ability points, and their main selling point (stackable accuracy) does not work very well with multi target classes (that's why Seer is arguably their best MC caster option). 
 

 

Single Classes ranking :

Consider that the SC are evaluate with MC option in mind. A SC can be good on its own, but if the corresponding MC is better, I will rank it low.

 

Great :

 

Wiz :
- Oh boy, those Tier 8 - 9 are good. Especially Meteor shower and Salvo.
- +2-3 PL is good for casters

 

Priest :
- Symbols are crazy spells. Spark the soul too. SC Priest is therefore a top tier nuker.
- +2-3 PL is good for casters

 

Monk :
- Whisper of the Wind and Resonant Touch really kick ass
- Inner Death can one-shot
- Scaling fists and still plenty of Monk goodies

 

Solid :

 

Druid :
- Great Maelstorm, the reason to pick SC druid
- Finally, a rez ability. Rest of Tier 8 is a bit meh compared to Wiz/Priests
- +2-3 PL is good for casters

 

Cipher :
- Shared Nightmare
- Time parasite basically allows you to do more
- +2-3 PL is good for casters

 

Barbarian :
- Shout Tier 9 upgrades are god Tier and cost nothing to cast. SC barbarian is a nuker. A couple of other goodies (Heart of Fury with dual mortars...), but this one is the gamechanging one IMHO.

 

Good only if you know what you're doing :

 

Paladin :
- Need to build your Pal and your party around Divine Retribution. But then, become an infinite ressource class.

 

Rogue :
- Need to build around Gambit and/or Vanishing god mode.

 

Subpar :

 

Ranger :
Whirling Strike OR Twin Shot need to be build around. There is a couple of cool stuff, but I honnestly see nothing really gamechanging with SC Ranger (which does not mean it is not viable, just that MC are basically better, Scout or Seer being the obvious options).

 

Fighter :
- Sundering Blow is great for what it does (enable party to harm that boss).
- Clear Out upgrades are nice, but that's about it.

 

Chanter :
- +2-3 PL only benefits invocation.
- Eld Nary upgrades is awesome, but in my experience has a tendancy to bounce back quite often.
- that 4th weapon is neat.
It's not that SC Chanter is bad, it is just that MC chanter offers about 75% of what SC does, plus the full benefits of another class. SC Chanter is mostly there because MC Chanter is arguably the best Multiclass option.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

Thanks Eric. I was having mild insomnia, then I read your post on my phone - now I'm officially awake .

--

Overall I think your ranking is very fair. I like the distinction between SC and MC. Thanks for giving love to the SC Barb! "Shout! Shout! Let it all out..."

I almost jumped off my bed when I saw Wizard in the OK MC tier  but your reasoning makes sense. That said... any MC Wizard will have multiple casts of Ryngrim's Enervating Terror + Repulsive Visage. Those can be game changers in any multiclass and party configuration, even if you don't pay a lot of attention to the Wiz. Don't you think?

--

I think one other variable that could shake things up is Difficulty Level but I think your assumption is PotD, correct? Essentially for how important PEN and ACC become offensively, as well as Affliction Resistance / Healing defensively, which will be even more important on Upscaled.

--

Finally, Subclasses are sometimes considered as selling points and sometimes don't seem fully considered in your ranking IMHO, although they can alter the perspective. For example:

SC Rogue: SC Trickster can be an awesome and very versatile contributor to a party - doesn't have to be a VS/Gambit one-trick pony.

SC Barb: hell yeah, but then make it a SC Furyshaper and you have the Blood Ward! *Almost* bumps it up a tier.

SC Chanter: is subpar in your ranking (I know, relative to its MC awesomeness). But having the ability to launch 8 Instruments of Death with a Beckoner while having a passive +PEN chant for them and everyone else is quite a neat selling point I think. SC Troubadour can easily maintain 100% Uptime on a freaking Dragon with 1800+ hit points and devastating special attacks. And in both cases, you don't really have to know what you're doing.

MC Priest:  Priest of Woedica + Martial Class has one of the best dual weapons in the game at PL2.

 

Anyway thanks for the great ranking and ensuing discussion!

[masterty66]

I almost want to put Fighter into "great" tier for multiclassing, simply because +3 engagement slots is extremely useful on POTD. On my recent POTD run with a Geomancer, I'd have to say that Pallegina was probably my MVP. Between rezzes, a million engagement slots, heals...I could not live without her. 

Perhaps it's a limitation of my playstyle but if there is one class I often find I can't live without on POTD it's a tank. Keeping a bunch of enemies pinned with engagements and soaking up enemy attacks is beyond useful. It's hard to achieve the necessary amount of engagements without having a fighter as one of your classes. 

Personally I don't see how it's possible to live without some sort of fighter based tank on POTD (with a party at least...solo is a dif story I suppose) unless you're using a Priest and giving your non fighter tank champion's might every fight. But that can be dispelled.

 

[MaxQuest]

When excluding cheese, mods and solo, I pretty much agree with your rankings Elric.

The only minor thing that I would probably change is: moving MC chanter from Great+ to Great. But that's my personal preference, because:

• I mostly value in chanters: Dragon Thrashed, Sured-Illa (if my party has firearms), Aefyllath chants (to boost my ciphers' dps a bit)
• I don't like summons
• with only 5 party members, it's hard for me to find a free spot in party for a chanter

----------------

Regarding points forte, I'd like to add to your list:

Cipher:

• charm and prone effects are much much weaker than in PoE1; but there are still paralyze and dominate options, so that's going for them
• can be built into a solid spell damage dealer (if the whole party is built around them) (sure they will be eclipsed by vancian spellscasters in some fights; but on average over the whole game their total spell damage can be good)

Rogue:

• ability to significantly lower enemy Deflection (via Confounding Blind, flanked / Persistent Distraction, resolve afflictions)
• long-lasting and efficient terrify (trickster's Repulsive Visage)
• Perishing Strike (for Enfeebled) / Toxic Strike (for a really solid DoT, if you have high MIG/INT)
• Devastating Blow (is amazing for building focus for mindstalkers)
• ability to paralyze enemies with Dexterity Affliction resistance (via trickster's Gaze of Adragan) (although there is anti-synergy with Blind)

Fighter:

• that easy tankability and staying power
• great accuracy bonuses (via Perception inspirations and Conqueror Stance); they make great battlemages focused on crowd control

Paladin:

• Shared Flames
• While Flames - heal battery
• great auras

Priest:

• access to AoE Daze. With only 25% of damage going through due to under-penetration, that's like mega heal
• array of great sub-rank-8 spells: SoT, BDD, Shinning Beacon, Cleansing Flames - these are usually enough to want a priest in party
• array of great rank 8/9 spells: Spark of The Righteous, Storm of Holy Fire, Hand of Weal and Woe, Writ of Mending

Edited December 23, 2021 by MaxQuest

[NotDumbEnough]

Would bump fighter up a tier for multiclassing, Intuitive is incredibly strong especially for crit reliant builds, lots and lots of concentration so you're nearly immune to interrupts, permanent uptime +20 all defenses is just very nice in general.

If we're considering subclasses, some of them are more worth single-classing than their peers, such as Trickster (Wall of Many Colors is insane), Beckoner (really want extra PL for lengthier summons, extra animated weapon and the dragon are both good, +1 pen chant is the most realistic way to buff summons penetration beyond Animancy Cat), Ascendant (can spam Time Parasite to have ridiculous action speed). Same for multiclassing (e.g. Devoted).

Edited December 23, 2021 by NotDumbEnough

[Elric Galad]

On 12/23/2021 at 5:33 AM, Not So Clever Hound said:

Overall I think your ranking is very fair. I like the distinction between SC and MC. Thanks for giving love to the SC Barb! "Shout! Shout! Let it all out..."

I almost jumped off my bed when I saw Wizard in the OK MC tier  but your reasoning makes sense. That said... any MC Wizard will have multiple casts of Ryngrim's Enervating Terror + Repulsive Visage. Those can be game changers in any multiclass and party configuration, even if you don't pay a lot of attention to the Wiz. Don't you think?

I think the prime reason why I didn't put priest and wiz higher is how their specific tricks are reliant on specific spell level. So often you'll end up saving slots, or having to choose between Miasma and Mirror Images, etc...

Druid less so, since their 2 main uses (DoT and HoT) have better redundancy between tiers.

This problem is fixed by Bloodmage though.

Note that the gaps between tiers is thin (exception with the 3 "bad SC), that's why not taking Subclasses into account is valid : I'm only trying to make a synthesis, you have "great" builds for each class.

On 12/23/2021 at 9:13 AM, masterty66 said:

I almost want to put Fighter into "great" tier for multiclassing, simply because +3 engagement slots is extremely useful on POTD. On my recent POTD run with a Geomancer, I'd have to say that Pallegina was probably my MVP. Between rezzes, a million engagement slots, heals...I could not live without her. 

Perhaps it's a limitation of my playstyle but if there is one class I often find I can't live without on POTD it's a tank. Keeping a bunch of enemies pinned with engagements and soaking up enemy attacks is beyond useful. It's hard to achieve the necessary amount of engagements without having a fighter as one of your classes. 

Personally I don't see how it's possible to live without some sort of fighter based tank on POTD (with a party at least...solo is a dif story I suppose) unless you're using a Priest and giving your non fighter tank champion's might every fight. But that can be dispelled.

 

Engagement slots can be found elsewhere : barbarian shout, modals, items (Kapana Taga). Fighters have undoubtly the most convenient. But you can build almost as good tanks with added utility with other classes.

That said, fighters have their own tricks : Tactician, Devoted PEN, quickswitches, access to a multi-hit weapon attack as MC... Though not as class defining, they enable perfectly strong builds. "Solid" tier simply means you have to think a little more to make these classes optimal.

On 12/23/2021 at 11:04 AM, MaxQuest said:

When excluding cheese, mods and solo, I pretty much agree with your rankings Elric.

Nice !

 

By the way, sorry if I don't answer all your points (I don't have that much time)

Edited December 24, 2021 by Elric Galad

[masterty66]

10 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Engagement slots can be found elsewhere : barbarian shout, modals, items (Kapana Taga). Fighters have undoubtly the most convenient. But you can build almost as good tanks with added utility with other classes.

That said, fighters have their own tricks : Tactician, Devoted PEN, quickswitches, access to a multi-hit weapon attack as MC... Though not as class defining, they enable perfectly strong builds. "Solid" tier simply means you have to think a little more to make these classes optimal.

True, there are other ways to get engagement slots. Fighter is just the most convenient, like you said.

One of the builds I'm considering doing for my next run is an Unbroken/Trickster. Building a tank that disengages with terrify sounds pretty fun. A part of me wants to do some sort of Priest of Skaen variant too, though. I have way too many ideas..

[thelee]

On 12/22/2021 at 1:59 PM, Elric Galad said:

First, a Tier means "how easy it is to include a given class in a proper party build, how easy it is to find a role for it". A high tier is fairly easy to include,

with this criteria i'm surprised SC druid also doesn't make it into the "great" category. their heals and dots do a lot of work for a lot of party playstyles and i've really grown to appreciate woodskin and form of the delemgan and weather the storm (for similar reasons, chanter has also bumped up my personal tier list because of that AR invocation), which buys you plenty of game time before you can start spamming great maelstrom.

for related reasons, priest bumps down a bit. i've stanned priests before, but there's no denying that a lot of players in the past have had trouble fitting a priest in, or finding a use for it - buffs and debuffs aren't relevant for lower difficulties as much, and can be harder to use, and all the nuking doesn't come online until much later (and excluding cheese excludes some of the priest's strongest stuff).

 

i know subclasses excluded for simplicity's sake, but i think i agree with the overall ranks (still digesting it though) but subclasses and other details can crazy mix up the specifics. i think psion is probably a tier above wherever any generic cipher lands; despite the "no cheese" rule, auto-genning focus is pretty much built-in cheese. SC bellower/troubadour for similar reasons goes up for me if i consider megabosses because the dragon summon does a lot of work in 2.5 of the megabosses (dor, belranga, and then a bit in HoW). probably will have more of an essay after i recover from some traveling. (edit: bellower/troubadour because they're the ones that can get easy 100% uptime on the dragon)

Edited December 28, 2021 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

with this criteria i'm surprised SC druid also doesn't make it into the "great" category. their heals and dots do a lot of work for a lot of party playstyles and i've really grown to appreciate woodskin and form of the delemgan and weather the storm (for similar reasons, chanter has also bumped up my personal tier list because of that AR invocation), which buys you plenty of game time before you can start spamming great maelstrom.

That is also true or MC druids. Additional PL (and Pollen Patch) do help, much maybe not as much as, let's say Helwalker MC. 

Really comes down to how average Druid Tier 8 is.

And once more, difference between Great and Solid isn't big.

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Really comes down to how average Druid Tier 8 is.

Druid Tier 8 = 2 strong but niche spells, and 2 very meh spells. I almost wish that Embrace of the Earth Talon was Tier 8. You would get it much later but it wouldn't compete with Relentless Storm at Tier 5 and it would actually make you use Tier 8 casts!  

[Constentin Lévine]

Personally, I think Tier8 druid's spells are really powerfuls, for exemple Entropy can truly change the manner to deal with an ennemy. It is my opinion and I think the subjectively class ranking depend of your fighting approach, then for me who prefer the ennabling-ennemies way rather than the bruteforce way, sc Druid is on top of the list. Also sc Cipher, not sc Monk, but mc Monk.

[Elric Galad]

12 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Personally, I think Tier8 druid's spells are really powerfuls, for exemple Entropy can truly change the manner to deal with an ennemy. It is my opinion and I think the subjectively class ranking depend of your fighting approach, then for me who prefer the ennabling-ennemies way rather than the bruteforce way, sc Druid is on top of the list. Also sc Cipher, not sc Monk, but mc Monk.

For me, there are only 2 ways of making Entropy useful :

- Inner Death enabler

- the way you (brilliantly) discovered that relies on avoiding the spell charge filter while still getting its bonus.

The later is close from the cheese category, which is excluded from the criteria of this particular analysis.

And the easiest semi-cheesy way of using Druid is still Brilliant + Maelstorm spam IMHO.

 

People are getting a little too triggered by the fact that their favorite class isn't on top : for me, all classes are more or less equally powerful if the right niche is choosen (bar maybe 3 SC, and druid is clearly not one of them). The question is more how easy to find the right niche and than how powerful it is.

 

Side note : I abolutely love the concept of Entropy, that's why I put a lot of effort into making it a well-rounded spell in my BPM mode.

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

People are getting a little too triggered by the fact that their favorite class isn't on top : for me, all classes are more or less equally powerful if the right niche is choosen

And I suppose an average class like ranger can be enough potent to go in "great" in classement  with an optimised equipement, but this list is about "nude" classes  

[Elric Galad]

27 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

And I suppose an average class like ranger can be enough potent to go in "great" in classement  with an optimised equipement, but this list is about "nude" classes  

I sincerely doubt so.

Whirling Strikes melee ranger with Scordeo Edge and a Mortar or Twin Shot with Frostseeker can do serious damages in the beginning of a fight. 

What these builds lack is ressources (11 bonds and you're done without) and general robustness (immune foes, long battles and you won't be doing much).

That's why Driving Roar barbarian or Divine Retribution Paladins + Summons made it to their respective tiers. What they offer won't fall apart the first time you're not in optimal conditions (but in the later case it requires party building, hence the lower tier).

[Not So Clever Hound]

3 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Personally, I think Tier8 druid's spells are really powerfuls, for exemple Entropy can truly change the manner to deal with an ennemy.

Fair point, to elaborate a bit then:

Entropy: that's why I wrote "strong but niche" . Entropy is strong against a tough single enemy if you kind-of cheese it in the amazing way you found out or if you have e.g. a SC Monk or a specific very powerful ability you want to crit as Elric wrote. Strong, but limited/niche use.

Firestag is strong if you cheese-BDD it in non-BPM I guess. It's really not on par with any Tier8 spell of other classes otherwise IMO.

Avenging Storm is for a SC Druid weapon user - e.g. niche optimiziation for Mortar Druid. OK but... bof.  

Regenerate... well I think we all agree.  

Then let's compare with what other casters get as tier8 spells.....

Edited December 28, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[dgray62]

8 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Druid Tier 8 = 2 strong but niche spells, and 2 very meh spells. I almost wish that Embrace of the Earth Talon was Tier 8. You would get it much later but it wouldn't compete with Relentless Storm at Tier 5 and it would actually make you use Tier 8 casts!  

I agree. Druids have some great spells, but they are not very well distributed across the levels. PL 5 is ridiculous with so many great spells; mention also might be made of PoI, NT and WoT. I'd say the Embrace the Earth Talon would be a fantastic PL 8 spell if you boosted the AoE to 2.5m radius and made it foe only.

[thelee]

So OK, if I were to take a stab at a tier list, I think I would actually re-sort the multi-class one quite a bit. A big thing for me is that a multiclass really should give you something better than if you had two characters single-classing the respective classes or if you just remixed some of your existing MCs in your party; in other words something truly synergistic, and as a result some classes fall off pretty hard, with a few notable exceptions. I'll mostly ignore subclasses unless something is very notable. This isn't saying the lower-tier classes are bad for MC, just that you might just be better off not MC-ing or that the lower the class is on the tier you may have to work harder to get synergistic results (maybe by mixing with a higher-tier class). Within a given tier, classes are not in any particular order, though I may group classes that are in the tier for a similar reason.

 

S tier:

Fighter, Monk <- extremely useful passives and abilities/buffs that are useful for all sorts of mixins. Tactical Barrage or Duality (intellect) are both great for casters for example. ironically, i would find a fighter/monk multiclass not that exciting, but a fighter/anything-else or a monk/anything-else is pretty darn easy way to get a synergistic MC.

Ranger <- a little more strictly limited to damage dealers and you have to work for it, but you can get a ton of generic accuracy and, later on, damage bonuses or defensive boosts. Stalker can get you unconditional bonus passive AR, which is really hard to come by (even a Barbarian's is limited to a few damage types). I was tempted to rank this down but to be honest it's only because you have to metagame and work for that max-ed out hunter's claw (and you can cheesily exceed the 20 max no problemo), not because it's weak in any way.

 

Top tier (may be situationally S-tier in the right setup, but not as general as actual S-tier)

Priest of Wael, Priest of Skaen, Trickster <- spam defensive spells for glass cannons

Shifter <- some interesting synergies with extended shape shifting, but mostly only works with martial multiclass

Psion <- the action economy benefits for a caster are wonderful, and multiclassing with a caster means unlike a SC psion you don't get completely shut out in fights with huge aoes or lots of annoying ranged enemies

Wizard <- lots of useful buff spells mixed in that provide a great deal of utility for all sorts of classes, whether you're high-deflection (wizard's double, arcane veil, mirror image), melee-ing (summoning weapons, phantom), tanking (spirit shield, bulwark, corrosive siphon, repulsive visage, flame shield), ranged (different summoned weapons, eldritch aim), or just a caster mix (infuse with vital essence, deleterious alacrity of motion, picking up tons of passives while still getting a lot of extra spell casts due to grimoires). The payoff is a little bit worse for mixing in with other caster classes, hence why it's not S-tier.

 

Pretty good tier (may be situationally top tier in the right setup, but not as general as actual Top tier)

Barbarian <- frenzy can be pretty useful for various setups, bonus armor & blood thirst also pretty handy. bloodlust comes very late but on damage-dealers can be spam-city. mobility of leap or wild sprint can help out mixins that are a bit squishier.

Rogue <- riposte and escape are great, but the opportunities for riposte are a little more limited. But martial damage dealers will love sneak attack.

Cipher <- bonus weapon damage is nice and you get some effects that only benefit the cipher, which means multiclassing onto a decent body can get you more than if you're just a SC cipher

Paladin -> extra defense can be nice and in certain situations can be godly, but it's pretty niche in terms of what other classes can offer and most of the stuff you really want someone else to be the paladin anyway, so that they can use exortations on you.

 

Nothing special tier (may be situationally pretty good in the right setup, but otherwise nothing special)

Druid, Priest -> really hard to come up with synergies outside of any subclasses mentioned above. you might still have a good time multiclassing them, but nothing special. Ancient and Priest of Magran/Berath have some edge interactions with their bonus PL/spells that can be slightly interesting. Fury unfortunately hurts itself by limiting its benefit to just druidic elements abilities.

Chanter <- energized, skald crit-hit synergy (which chanter alone is kinda bad at), sometimes you have a build that needs to be up close and personal anyway and can advantageously position chant AoEs. but most of what a chanter can do can be done just as well or better as an SC chanter, you don't necessarily get anything special by MC-ing it.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by thelee

[NotDumbEnough]

12 minutes ago, thelee said:

Fighter, Monk <- extremely useful passives and abilities/buffs that are useful for all sorts of mixins. Tactical Barrage or Duality (intellect) are both great for casters for example. ironically, i would find a fighter/monk multiclass not that exciting, but a fighter/anything-else or a monk/anything-else is pretty darn easy way to get a synergistic MC.

I had a Devoted/Helwalker run that I quit early due to how busted it was, as Unbending is truly broken with high intellect. The hit to crit was also very nice for chaining Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming, and Mob Stance would also start crit chains, often annihilating enemies from full hp.

[Elric Galad]

12 hours ago, thelee said:

So OK, if I were to take a stab at a tier list, I think I would actually re-sort the multi-class one quite a bit. A big thing for me is that a multiclass really should give you something better than if you had two characters single-classing the respective classes or if you just remixed some of your existing MCs in your party; in other words something truly synergistic, and as a result some classes fall off pretty hard, with a few notable exceptions. I'll mostly ignore subclasses unless something is very notable. This isn't saying the lower-tier classes are bad for MC, just that you might just be better off not MC-ing or that the lower the class is on the tier you may have to work harder to get synergistic results (maybe by mixing with a higher-tier class). Within a given tier, classes are not in any particular order, though I may group classes that are in the tier for a similar reason.

 

S tier:

Fighter, Monk <- extremely useful passives and abilities/buffs that are useful for all sorts of mixins. Tactical Barrage or Duality (intellect) are both great for casters for example. ironically, i would find a fighter/monk multiclass not that exciting, but a fighter/anything-else or a monk/anything-else is pretty darn easy way to get a synergistic MC.

Ranger <- a little more strictly limited to damage dealers and you have to work for it, but you can get a ton of generic accuracy and, later on, damage bonuses or defensive boosts. Stalker can get you unconditional bonus passive AR, which is really hard to come by (even a Barbarian's is limited to a few damage types). I was tempted to rank this down but to be honest it's only because you have to metagame and work for that max-ed out hunter's claw (and you can cheesily exceed the 20 max no problemo), not because it's weak in any way.

 

Top tier (may be situationally S-tier in the right setup, but not as general as actual S-tier)

Priest of Wael, Priest of Skaen, Trickster <- spam defensive spells for glass cannons

Shifter <- some interesting synergies with extended shape shifting, but mostly only works with martial multiclass

Psion <- the action economy benefits for a caster are wonderful, and multiclassing with a caster means unlike a SC psion you don't get completely shut out in fights with huge aoes or lots of annoying ranged enemies

Wizard <- lots of useful buff spells mixed in that provide a great deal of utility for all sorts of classes, whether you're high-deflection (wizard's double, arcane veil, mirror image), melee-ing (summoning weapons, phantom), tanking (spirit shield, bulwark, corrosive siphon, repulsive visage, flame shield), ranged (different summoned weapons, eldritch aim), or just a caster mix (infuse with vital essence, deleterious alacrity of motion, picking up tons of passives while still getting a lot of extra spell casts due to grimoires). The payoff is a little bit worse for mixing in with other caster classes, hence why it's not S-tier.

 

Pretty good tier (may be situationally top tier in the right setup, but not as general as actual Top tier)

Barbarian <- frenzy can be pretty useful for various setups, bonus armor & blood thirst also pretty handy. bloodlust comes very late but on damage-dealers can be spam-city. mobility of leap or wild sprint can help out mixins that are a bit squishier.

Rogue <- riposte and escape are great, but the opportunities for riposte are a little more limited. But martial damage dealers will love sneak attack.

Cipher <- bonus weapon damage is nice and you get some effects that only benefit the cipher, which means multiclassing onto a decent body can get you more than if you're just a SC cipher

Paladin -> extra defense can be nice and in certain situations can be godly, but it's pretty niche in terms of what other classes can offer and most of the stuff you really want someone else to be the paladin anyway, so that they can use exortations on you.

 

Nothing special tier (may be situationally pretty good in the right setup, but otherwise nothing special)

Druid, Priest -> really hard to come up with synergies outside of any subclasses mentioned above. you might still have a good time multiclassing them, but nothing special. Ancient and Priest of Magran/Berath have some edge interactions with their bonus PL/spells that can be slightly interesting. Fury unfortunately hurts itself by limiting its benefit to just druidic elements abilities.

Chanter <- energized, skald crit-hit synergy (which chanter alone is kinda bad at), sometimes you have a build that needs to be up close and personal anyway and can advantageously position chant AoEs. but most of what a chanter can do can be done just as well or better as an SC chanter, you don't necessarily get anything special by MC-ing it.

 

I think I almost totally disagree with you here.

I feel that the argument "why multiclassing if you can have 2 SC instead" is a pretty bad one. The answer is obvious : because it saves you a Party Slot. If you don't take this into account, I don't know what to say.

2 Rogues / Chanters are for me much more efficient than 1 Rogue and 1 Chanter : twice the Chants, about 1.5 more Summons (assuming Ancient Weapons), and probably much better martial damages (unless maybe building around Gambit, then it might be similar).

And this is without any MC synergy.

 

That being said your list is super informative. So in my book it's an accurate ranking of MC Synergies.

I especially like how you point the level of Ranger appreciation is tied to using Hunter's Claw or not. Even without abusing the bug, this ability can be a Passive +20 Acc / + 20 all defences (I like slightly less the +20% damages) if you metagame enough. Hard to find a comparable level of bonus elsewhere.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I feel that the argument "why multiclassing if you can have 2 SC instead" is a pretty bad one. The answer is obvious : because it saves you a Party Slot. If you don't take this into account, I don't know what to say.

i phrased it badly, what i mean is, for example, if you have a ranger/priest to get champion's boon+stalker's link on your pet, is there anything special about it versus a ranger and a priest separately (answer, no: a separate priest can still cast champion's boon on a separate ranger's stalker's link pet)? not literally take up an additional party slot, but does combining the two actually get anything new (the sum is more than the parts), or could you get the same outcomes through other setups and you don't have to have it via multiclass. 

[thelee]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

(I like slightly less the +20% damages)

i actually really like the damage boost, but on casters. it's pretty easy to rack up damage bonuses for martials, quite a bit less so for casters, and i almost never invest in might as part of initial character creation, so the +20% is almost a multiplicative 1.2x for my caster's damage output.

[NotDumbEnough]

Some of the high tier caster food gives you damage bonuses. Personally I almost never empower or rest though, so it's basically a one-off cost and not that expensive for me.

[thelee]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Some of the high tier caster food gives you damage bonuses. Personally I almost never empower or rest though, so it's basically a one-off cost and not that expensive for me.

ah yes, that's probably true. tbh i mostly either consume rum, rymsjodda lager, koiki fruit, or brew battered ysae. i care alot about speed/recovery timing on my casters.

[dgray62]

I like Captain's Banquet for casters, for the combo of the action speed bonus and the +20% spell bonus. Since I always have someone spamming chill fog, and since the AI always causes someone to run right into them, the immunity to intellectual afflictions is great too.

[Boeroer]

Players tend to value character synergy over party synergy. Which is a mistake imo when it comes to "power".

For example it feels cool to use a club + modal in the offhand to lower Will by 25 points so that I can hit better with my Draining Touch in the right hand. Or I use a Morning Star + modal to lower Fortitude in order to land my Brute Force attacks better. 

But this all could be done faster and more reliably with two different party members. Like a Black Jacket who switches from club + flail setup to morning star setup and lowers three defenses - while two other chars focus on the Draining Touch and Brute Force game. Spares a ton of time. 

Character-contained synergies might be cooler, but they are not necessarily more effective than party synergies. Most of times the party synergy has way better action economy for example, it can have better impact bc. of deeper specialisation and higher power level, too. 

I also support @theleestatement that often a multiclass can't give your party a better advantage than two SC chars. Sure, if you want to fill your party with a certain set of roles or combos you might lose a spot. But that assumes that a SC char cannot fulfill different roles at all - which is not correct in most cases. Meaning that you don't necessarily lose a spot when picking two SC over a MC if the SCs aren't one-trick ponies. What they lack in versatility they can often balance out with better action economy (e.g. using Druid & Priest to buff up the party in half the time a Druid/Priest can), higher PL and earlier access to higher tiers as well as access to the most powerful abilities while also being able to either specialize more (e.g. letting the Druid do the healing and maximize MIG while the Priest only does buffing and can drop MIG entirely).

I played a run with Troubadour/Psion and one with SC Psion and a SC Troubadour in the party - aside from making it more difficult to fill the roles (but manageable) it didn't make my run more difficult. I'd say it was even more effective. 

There might be one downside though: I think multiclass characters are more interesting and fun to play. SC Psion was dope (especially with Shared Nightmare + Ringleader, jeez) but essentially a little boring. Psion/Troub was very fun.

Like an SC Fighter with a Morning Star and Clear the Path + an SC Barb with Driving Roar are a devastating combo late game, but a Brute is just more fun to play even still. At least to me. 

Of course the situation is vastly different with a solo character.

And of course there are a lot of synergies that only work with multiclasses - especially when only effects are involved that target your char alone (see Wizard self buffs for example) 

I just wanted to point out that using two SC instead of two multiclasses doesn't mean that you really lose a spot in the party. You may lose some efficiency in one role (e.g. dealing dmg) but you might balance that out with better action economy and more efficient role fulfillment (e.g. buffing). 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Boeroer