The all things Political Topic - When the sun Rises, the shadows must retreat Fleeing in fear from the Fires of dawn

[Gromnir]

in recent interviews and pressers, desantis has attempted curious tack to defend his inaction regarding covid-19 and the delta variant in particular: questioning the rising hospitalizations and almost certain near future rise in deaths is countered with an accusation of "victim blaming." by criticizing desantis, you are questioning those individuals who got sick. would a mask mandate, greater/earlier emphasis on vaccinations or enforced social distancing have prevented harm? such a question presupposes the increase in hospitalizations were amongst those who failed to be vaccinated, social distance and/or mask. is victim blaming, 'ccording to desantis.

would be funny if it weren't so horrible, and am expecting fox to be parroting this nonsense forthwith.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

38 minutes ago, Gorth said:

DeSantis... "The Florida Butcher"?

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58077209

"US health officials say 11,515 Florida residents are currently in hospital. Many are younger and healthier than patients seen earlier in the pandemic.

On Saturday, Florida set a record for most new infections in a single day.

Republican Governor Ron DeSantis opposes efforts to make vaccines or masks mandatory.

Across the US, one in three new cases last week were recorded in Florida or Texas."

 

Sort of a giveaway what parts of the US *not* to be in, at least at the moment I suppose.

 

I can't think of anything more Florida than letting people die but trying to ban ice cream.

[ComradeYellow]

China's biggest private companies are in chaos. It's all part of Beijing's plan (msn.com)

^Proof that China is not fascist.  In fascist regimes, business leaders are seen as the heart, soul, and pillar of society, workers and peasants be damned and hit the slave pits.  China is restructuring it's business community so that it adheres to a more balanced and equitable society overall.

I mean sure, there's risks with taking a sledgehammer to the tech and tutoring sector, like it may slow growth in the short term, but if you want to tune your rig, you got to dismantle it first and then let it run with its new processes.  Westerners are always so quick to pull the trigger with short term thinking in mind, China is playing the long game

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

China's biggest private companies are in chaos. It's all part of Beijing's plan (msn.com)

^Proof that China is not fascist.  In fascist regimes, business leaders are seen as the heart, soul, and pillar of society, workers and peasants be damned and hit the slave pits.

There, fixed it for you. Both China and Russia are about as fascist as you get. Big business is *tolerated* as long as they dance to the tune of the presiding autocrat, whether Putin or Xi. Russian billionaires who thought themselves safe are wetting their pants, fearing the knock on the door from intelligence officers. Chinese billionaires are "disappearing" after mock trial and sentence according to the new Hong Kong rules (basically, anything critical of the regime is a crime punishable by whatever we can make up at the time).

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, Gorth said:

There, fixed it for you. Both China and Russia are about as fascist as you get. Big business is *tolerated* as long as they dance to the tune of the presiding autocrat, whether Putin or Xi. Russian billionaires who thought themselves safe are wetting their pants, fearing the knock on the door from intelligence officers. Chinese billionaires are "disappearing" after mock trial and sentence according to the new Hong Kong rules (basically, anything critical of the regime is a crime punishable by whatever we can make up at the time).

100 % true, QFT 

Also their is no real private sector in China because one of the truisms and foundations of the free market is the private sector is made up of different companies and listed companies is always one of the primary  measurements of the strength of any economy. Which is why any stock market is so important 

But in the China the CCP can force any listed Chinese company to do what they instruct, this is not how the independence  and sustainability of the private sector and public sector works

For example when the CCP forced Chinese investment banks to buy shares on the main Chinese SE in 2015 when the Chinese stock markets were crashing and preventing investors from selling shares...they froze their SE. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/china-bans-major-shareholders-from-selling-their-stakes-for-next-six-months

 

 

[Raithe]

Apparently, Rachel Maddow had an interview with the Governor, and brought up Kevin Stricklands case but the Governor said he didn't have time to review his case (this was a couple of months ago).

 

[majestic]

2 minutes ago, Raithe said:

Apparently, Rachel Maddow had an interview with the Governor, and brought up Kevin Stricklands case but the Governor said he didn't have time to review his case (this was a couple of months ago).

Don't see the problem here, he's probably guilty of something else.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It should also be noted that Strickland has been imprisoned for 43 years. ****s ****ed.

[Raithe]

https://www.queerty.com/caitlyn-jenners-campaign-totally-broke-blowing-900k-sushi-dinners-limo-rides-20210804

[Gromnir]

2 minutes ago, Raithe said:

https://www.queerty.com/caitlyn-jenners-campaign-totally-broke-blowing-900k-sushi-dinners-limo-rides-20210804

kamala harris is no doubt relived. when folks talk 'bout most dysfunctional and inept political campaigns o' the last decade, perhaps the vp will no longer be the first name which comes to mind.

HA! Good Fun!

[ComradeYellow]

Ultrawealthy Americans are ditching their US citizenship in droves (msn.com)

LOL, where are they gonna go, and what is the U.S. without it's rich folk?

Fun fact:  China's wealthy aren't taxed as heavily as Americans (but as I mentioned earlier are under increasing pressure from state regulators), so U.S. is pretty screwed if they set up shop in China. 

Without its brainy entrepreneurs, the U.S. would expose it's rotten underbelly even more, and I think you know what I mean here.  "Rural" and "White" are the keywords.

@Gorth Perhaps we can agree to disagree, you see it as blatant fascism, I see it as communism evolved and matured to a workable level, the real fascist in this story was Donald Trump in my book, not Xi Jinping who continues to cite Marxism and has read Das Kapital 3 times.  Ask a Trump supporter of Marxism and you risk death, ask a Xi supporter about Marxism and you'll get a more positive and optimistic response.

Edited August 6, 2021 by ComradeYellow

[Raithe]

Semi-political, but this might amuse some of the lawyers in the audience...

[Gorth]

6 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

ask a Xi supporter about Marxism and you'll get a more positive and optimistic response.

Your exposure to Xi supporters seems to be very limited. Those who have seen something other than the Xi propaganda machine fears both Xi and his supporters. It can be deadly to them and their family back home in China if they don't tow the party line while abroad.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chinese-students-in-australia-fear-reprisals-at-home-if-they-speak-out-inquiry-hears

Chinese students in Australia are afraid to speak out on politically sensitive issues because of potential repercussions for relatives back home, a parliamentary inquiry has been told.

Human Rights Watch has said its ongoing research into academic freedom in Australia had found anxiety and loneliness among Chinese students, with some engaging in self-censorship to avoid a backlash from Beijing.

Addressing an inquiry into foreign interference in the university sector, Sophie McNeill, a researcher for Human Rights Watch Australia, said on Thursday there was “a very deep fear of being watched, of being reported on”.

https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/australian-campuses-chinese-students-fear-beijings-surveillance

TAIPEI, TAIWAN - Chen Yun, a Chinese student at the University of Melbourne, has always been curious about different political systems. After she arrived in Australia, she started posting on social media about the push for democratic reforms in China.

Then came the harassment. She started receiving emails warning that she should be “careful” because if she returns to China, someone would “give her a lesson.”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/30/theyre-being-watched-chinese-pro-democracy-students-in-australia-face-threats-and-insults

Wu Lebao, 38, recounts receiving a string of insulting messages and calls from a fellow student calling him stupid and a traitor to China.

The alleged harassment experienced by Wu – who is studying mathematics at the Australian National University in Canberra – recently took a disturbing turn.

“He also said he would come to my door at night,” Wu, who lives in student accommodation, tells Guardian Australia.

“It worried me a little bit.”

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/06/30/they-dont-understand-fear-we-have/how-chinas-long-reach-repression-undermines

Surveillance, Harassment, and Threats

The Chinese government maintains surveillance of Chinese mainland and Hong Kong students in Australian universities. Human Rights Watch verified three cases of students whose family in China were visited or were requested to meet with police regarding the student’s activities in Australia. While this number is low (though other cases may not have been reported to Human Rights Watch), the fact this occurs at all is enough to keep thousands of other students on edge and fearful.

 

So yes, death threats to themselves and their family back home is what awaits those Chinese who dares mention such ideas like democracy to Xi supporters. we will have to disagree on that front as I think your view on Xi his reign of terror, is naive at best and dangerous at worst. Don't get me started on how the Uighurs might feel about daring to speak out about their misgivings to Xi supporters.

 

Edit: Dangerous, because you are exactly that kind of "weak link" that XI supporters would love to recruit to track, harass and abuse people who are against the regime, in places where Chinese intelligence can't operate overtly.

[Gromnir]

21 hours ago, Raithe said:

Semi-political, but this might amuse some of the lawyers in the audience...

 

we mentioned the issue in a previous post

for the most part, lawyers is free to posit wacky legal theories w/o risking rule 11. read case law unconventional and do a bit o' dr. frankenstein surgery with precedent is okie dokie. a few o' the trump team lawsuits had advanced affirmative action claims which relied on prayer as 'posed to established rule o' law; hope the Courts would sudden decide the past few decades o' voter law cases opposite o' reality.  such wishful thinking based lawyering is not cause for sanction.

what the kraken lawsuits had judges and government lawyers shocked and angry 'bout were the factual reliance on innuendo and gossip w/o any suggestion there would be admissible evidence forthcoming.

the thing is, and am admitted continued perplexed by this, something like 40% o' americans thinks January 6 and trump's efforts to overturn the election were either justified or not as worrisome as lib media makes it seem.

wtf?

the guy in the picture were a hairsbreadth away from being the acting attorney general

when that failed, the President o' the United States of America encouraged thousands o' his followers to march on the Capitol. those insurgents who did indeed march to and invade the Capitol were intent on forcing mike pence to send electoral votes back to the states, and perhaps worse. unlike the summer protesters who vandalized empty fed court houses in oregon and washington, the insurgents broke windows and broke down doors to gain entry to the Capitol while Congress was in session and with the VP present. the insurgents attacked cops and a few even called for mike pence to be hanged. 

an example o' a not insurgent

...

what more do you freaking need to wake the heck up? we got americans who will fight to the death for their chainsaw or to oppose a mask mandate, and marjorie taylor greene suggests the biden folks going door-to-door to inform the unvaccinated 'bout delta will be met in the south by a 2nd amendment response, but americans see an attempt by the President to overturn the election and thousand o' the President's loyal followers ransacking the Capitol looking for disloyal Congressmen and the reaction is either sympathy or indifference?

wtf?

some people is being willful obtuse 'bout how close we were to calamity following the previous Presidential election and refusal to come to grips with such a reality makes it all the more likely it is gonna happen for reals in 2024 or 2028 or...

it is funny. chinese thermometers changing vote tallies in michigan is funny. the quips 'bout santa claus, the easter bunny and the bumbling kraken lawyers is funny. the problem is far too many don't realize or they ignore how dangerous close those b00bs came to achieving the unthinkable.

not funny.

[Guard Dog]

@GromnirAs horrifying as what they tried to do there is no scenario in which it would’ve been successful. Oh sure they could absolutely create a constitutional crisis. But the idea of the election being overturned or Trump being retained as president would require an acquiescence that was just never going to happen. First of all there was no circumstance in which the military was going to involve itself in that kind of a power struggle. None of the joint Chiefs were on his side. Not one. And even if Pence had wanted to refuse to accept the certified state electoral votes he had no legal basis to do so. Any attempt to do so would’ve been smacked down in court. Donald Trump was leaving the White House on January 21 no matter what. There’s nothing he could’ve done that was going to change that. He could’ve walked out with dignity or been dragged out kicking in screaming. What we actually got was much closer to the latter than the former. But you’re right it’s more than disturbing that they even thought they could do this. Or would even consider trying. As far as I know nothing like this has ever even been attempted in United States history.

as far as the guys who broke into the capital they’re all going to prison. Everyone of them. What more should we do? Have them all lined up and shot? I don’t think any of them had any idea of overthrowing the government or anything like that. Most of them are buds of yahoos who are duped into doing something stupid by a demagogue. The one who definitely deserves to go to prison is the one who whip them into a frenzy and then sent them over there. that is like firing a bullet from a gun. Whatever your intentions were you’re responsible for everything that bullet hits.

so what’s the other message here? That the Republicans are freaking terrible now? Not exactly news to me. The last Republican I voted for not named John McCain was George HW Bush. Can’t imagine I’ll ever support another one either. Of course that doesn’t make the Democrats an acceptable alternative. But that’s an old argument that would serve no purpose of rehashing.

[Gromnir]

this continued willful self delusion is hard to take.

change events by altering the choices o' a handful o' folks in a handful o' positions.

simple limit to january 6. if pence had sent votes back to states, the Courts might very well have chosen to stay uninvolved, 'cause 1) were arguable a political issue and 2) you do not have a Constitutional right to vote for President and Vice President. that detail keeps slipping the minds o' folks. tell us 'bout pence and the impossibility o' him doing the wrong thing is unconvincing seeing as how he were one o' the chief supporters o' trump's stolen election bs and he were the guy who actual suggested using the insurrection act to respond to protesters in oregon and washington dc. pence were hardly some kinda bastion o' Constitutional integrity. sure, on january 6 he did what he were s'posed to do, but if anybody before january 6 claims they were certain he would, am gonna call  'em naïve or a liar.

oh, and lack o' legal authority had never stopped trump previous to his election interference, election interference am gonna remind you that a few months earlier gd thought were nothing more than media fear mongering. where were you during the trump Presidency for gawd's sake? if you got the DoJ refusing to prosecute or even investigate the President for even overt illegal action, and the senate refusing to hold a trial or even consider articles o' impeachment, the the President could get away with just 'bout anything, and he did, over and over.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-complete-listing-atrocities-1-1-056#2017

count on the joint chiefs? the joint chiefs also wouldn't have used the military to prevent regime change. 

you have no idea how wrong you are 'bout the election and january 6. a few people in a few key states making a few decisions different than they did. key counties in michigan came down to the seeming insignificant functionaries performing largely ministerial duties, and one o' them freaking abstained. if the other republican on a vote board had chosen different and forced the republican state legislature to decide, what then? look at georgia today. sure, the secretary o' state did not embrace trump's attempt at fraud, but the secretary o' state may now be overruled by the state legislature. 

seriously. what kinda kool aid is some o' you drinking?

 

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

I don’t think any of them had any idea of overthrowing the government or anything like that.

serious. any o' them? 

...

...

am gonna pause to let the magnitude o' this amazing expression o' self deception sink in fully.

genuine beyond belief.

so, none o' those guys were there 'cause they thought they could overturn the election... y'know in spite o' court admissions already which contradict this position. the insurrectionists, many o' whom believed they had been invited to the Capitol (though a few thought they were at the White House, no joke) were there to stop the ratification o' the election and force Congress to make Trump the winner o' the 2020 election. 

insurrection, btw, don't require a belief by participants they is complete overthrowing the government, which is why we so many times posted the freaking definition and statutes in question. stopping, altering, delaying the election process counts as insurrection and those buds and yahoos attacking cops and doing violence to gain entry to the Capitol weren't just there to voice their support for the soon to be former President. the buds and yahoos were there to make a difference, to force a change in what were taking place at the Capitol that day. what were happening at the Capitol that day btw? 

serious, what on earth did some o' you see on january 6 or in subsequent weeks o' insurrection video?

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

Well it certainly no way to know what every single one of them we’re thinking. But that jack ass with the face paint and the buffalo hat seems to be a pretty good representative of the majority and he seems to think it was all a “protest”. I’m sure they were more than a few provocateur‘s in the crowd who did somehow imagine themselves a kin to Madison, Jefferson, Washington. But I still say the majority of the blame lies on the guy who just moments before whipped them into a frenzy and told him to go do exactly what they did.

 

by the way, I had not heard that bit about the thermometers in the voting machines until you posted it. I’ve just been reading about it. As conspiracy theory goes that one is a beaut. Having spent the majority of my career working in wireless networks I can think of 1000 different reasons why that just makes no sense.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Guard Dog

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

In the early 1920s a poorly organized group of maybe 2000 people tried to seize control of the government. They failed spectacularly, looked like a bunch of dip****s, and quite a few of them went to prison. This was the Beer Hall Putsch, and afterwards well... **** went to hell.

Not every failed coup attempt eventually leads to success, but to discount that it was a coup attempt based on how stupid the marchers were is sticking your head somewhere the sun don't shine. The fact is that this MAGA Putsch had the support of several legislators, governors, attorney generals, and other assorted government officials. All of which to my knowledge are presently still in power, and are currently acting to rig the next election before it happens with voter suppression.

[Gromnir]

49 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 

 

by the way, I had not heard that bit about the thermometers in the voting machines until you posted it. I’ve just been reading about it. As conspiracy theory goes that one is a beaut. Having spent the majority of my career working in wireless networks I can think of 1000 different reasons why that just makes no sense.

the guy at the doj promoting that conspiracy theory were almost the acting attorney general and we are discovering through released email correspondence that jefferey clark had every intention o' sending letters (which he had already drafted and circulated at doj) to election officials in the six states where votes were close(ish) claiming the DoJ had indeed uncovered evidence of widespread election fraud, seeming based on the conspiracy theory nonsense which you so readily and reasonably dismiss. clark had been part o' the intelligence briefings which revealed the complete lack o' any evidence o' widespread election fraud, but he disbelieved the conclusions o' intelligence and instead latched onto alternative facts. s'posed, scott perry were instrumental in the crafting o' the circulated letter.

so, imagine you are one o' these fence sitting functionaries in michigan or nevada. you have absolute no intelligence background and your position on the county election board were s'posed to be nothing more than a ceremonial appointment. you weren't even elected. you got no engineering background and have no idea how voting machines work. nevertheless, to your surprise, for the past couple weeks you have been amongst the most talked 'bout people in your state. heck, President Trump called you personal and asked you to be a courageous patriot. unfortunate, you are getting death threats, and not just from the libs.

suddenly a letter arrives from the acting attorney general which claims widespread voter fraud happened in your state. what a relief, no? is no longer a matter o' you needing you make an impossible decision. doj is asking for time to investigate fully before ratification takes place. why would you say "no" to the doj?

improbable almost happened, and state  legislatures in georgia and elsewhere is making sure that next time, if there is a next time, improbable becomes likely.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

First off let me get this out-of-the-way, I am not all that familiar with everything Georgia did in their election reform. Because it’s Georgia mainly. But some of the things they banned make a lot of sense to ban. Like ballot harvesting for example. having a third-party delivering ballots of other people to a polling place is fraught with potential problems. 

[Guard Dog]

I’ll tell you one thing though. I was a baby when Watergate happened. I learned about it in school of course but didn’t really care back in those days. It wasn’t until I read Woodward & Bernstein‘s book that I got a real understanding of what happened and I was amazed that a president and an administration could even imagine they could get away with that. That was nothing compared to the picture emerging here.

@Gromniryou are clearly more informed about this than I am. So let me ask you something. Hypothetically for a moment consider a scenario where the few people in the right places actually did the wrong thing. How does this play out? Speculate on an alternate history of the month of January if you would please. Because I have to believe even if they did it the country would not meekly acquiesce.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

serious. any o' them? 

...

...

am gonna pause to let the magnitude o' this amazing expression o' self deception sink in fully.

genuine beyond belief.

so, none o' those guys were there 'cause they thought they could overturn the election... y'know in spite o' court admissions already which contradict this position. the insurrectionists, many o' whom believed they had been invited to the Capitol (though a few thought they were at the White House, no joke) were there to stop the ratification o' the election and force Congress to make Trump the winner o' the 2020 election. 

insurrection, btw, don't require a belief by participants they is complete overthrowing the government, which is why we so many times posted the freaking definition and statutes in question. stopping, altering, delaying the election process counts as insurrection and those buds and yahoos attacking cops and doing violence to gain entry to the Capitol weren't just there to voice their support for the soon to be former President. the buds and yahoos were there to make a difference, to force a change in what were taking place at the Capitol that day. what were happening at the Capitol that day btw? 

serious, what on earth did some o' you see on january 6 or in subsequent weeks o' insurrection video?

 

This is a good debate and one that I have had with others and its about what should people be charged with that is reasonable considering the myriad  of different  people who participated in the violence or were sometimes just spectators

It doesn't seem like an accurate framing to say it was an example of insurrection, this is the definition of insurrection 

"An insurrection is violent action that is taken by a large group of people against the rulers of their country, usually in order to remove them from office"

Most of the protestors seemed   to believe spurious conspiracy theories or were very uninformed about how the election had been proven to be valid. So that means you would be trying to prove these people wanted to stop something that was already over ….surly we must consider the actual state of mind of some of the protestors?

If you had to question them to understand intent the fact most of them thought they were doing the right moral and patriotic action makes it hard to call this insurrection?

You must charge them with violence to people and property and damage to property and other similar crimes.

If we use the charge of insurrection I feel that would undermine real insurrection which does have a plan that is about real control of any government ….you don’t want to give this mob agency or recognition for something they didn’t really have a understanding of ?

[Gromnir]

53 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

First off let me get this out-of-the-way, I am not all that familiar with everything Georgia did in their election reform.

then shoulda' left there, yes? cherry picking like some alt-right radio host does you no favors. most o' the georgia changes is indeed innocuous or even common sense, though identify as "ballot harvesting" is a bit loaded and is a mischaracterization o' what actual were the legal practice. genuine ballot harvesting were already illegal in georgia via a 2019 law. the 2019 law changed so only a close family member could deliver and/or mail. etc.

the problem with the georgia law is the other stuff not mentioned by conservative radio hosts. am thinking gd should first self educate a bit.

aside, given how republican state and local election functionaries were treated by their party for doing their legal duty in 2020, is it more or less likely that their inevitable replacements would do same in 2024?

as for meekly acquiescing, you seem to have done so. Capitol riot? meh. an investigation o' said riot? meh. 40% (38.6% to be exact) believe the january 6 insurrection were no biggie or were a patriotic act. nevertheless, you are certain that if trump had succeeded, the folks on the other side o' the fence woulda' risen up en masse and rejected the authoritarian power grab. why?

trump buried an ig report on his ukraine activities and pardoned folks who could be called as witnesses against him in a future criminal trial. trump pressured a foreign government to investigate a political rival. trump refused to comply with Congressional demands for records and witnesses as part o' an impeachment. trump ignored spending power o' Congress on multiple occasions. turns out trump also prevented the fbi from following up on leads regarding now Justice Kavanaugh while the nomination were being deliberated by the senate. the aforementioned jeffery clark were almost acting ag 'cause trump abused the already questionable temp appointment power. oh, and again, how many folks rose up in response to trump sending federal troops to states w/o the consent o' state legislatures or governors, troops who attacked people on public state thoroughfares and kidnapped protesters using masked agents and unmarked vans. etc.

four freaking years taught us just how meek is american patriots.

ps we have been told, innumerable times, they is all bad. so what does it matter if biden won the election or trump stole it? doesn't matter 'cause they are all corrupt, yes? ain't worth fighting for or against any politician 'cause ultimately it makes no difference. is no wonder we see such apathy to Constitutional and humanitarian violations. if is not "me or mine," if is not my chainsaw, then it don't matter 'cause there is nothing worth fighting for when all the alternatives is bad... but not bad enough apparently.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Gromnir

[Pidesco]

I just watched the latest John Oliver thing, and it managed to surprise me once more. The US is an insane developed country. 

The subject was EMS in the USA and how terrible it is. Sure. What took me by surprise, though, is that EMS is not considered an essential service in the US. As said, just insane.