Politics 20/20

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Elerond said:

@BruceVCThere is not best system. Ideological purity always causes more problems than it solves. When it comes to policies you should go with ones that work best in big picture instead of trying to force policies that don't work because they belong ideology you like generally. 

Thanks for responding and I am glad you did because I am not explaining my point properly, some of what I need to share with you now you probably  know and I apologize for repeating this but its important I respond with a series of points just so I dont create the wrong impression with you...and its not that I expect to agree, I would think you would agree because its the truth and you will probably  know this already 

And I enjoy these debates because its good to understand different views. Also I can provide extensive links for any point if you want to do your own research?

• Yes you are absolutely right about there is no such thing as a " one fit " system around either political or economic polices for the world and this is by design. The world has regions that are important role players in the global  economy and local stability is dependent on certain countries continuing to be functional and there current governments are necessary to  allow these region to function. So we need to accept this and support this arrangement  because this has been proven to offer the most sustainable and stable future for these countries .....we mustnt  allow our personal and sometimes understandably biased views create a wrong view of this type of arrangement. Good example of this is Saudi Arabia and its influence in the region which matters on several important global realities,  like the oil price and how OPEC directly can control this
• And then this is a good time to clarify something that many of us, including me, didnt explain or understand. The Cold War is framed, incorrectly because it creates ideological confusion, as a war of " Capitalism vs Communism " but it really was a war between " Democracies vs Dictatorships .....
• Capitalism should not anymore be seen as a  ideological  policy but rather a series of proven economic policies. You need a typical functional government to implement polices that support the free market but this is normal and it is expected you follow governance and the rule of law and order
• And you are right again that you cannot assume this will always work ....you just need to understand and monitor the output and actual reality on the ground
• And finally the choice for any legitimate government to deliver services and allow for a quality of life for its citizens should be seen as mandatory.....in other words no elected government or  psedo-leadership can decide that its citizens dont need access to things like education and ignore security. To be more clear " as a leader you dont have the right to loot resources from your country and only use them to benefit yourself "

 

[Gorth]

13 hours ago, BruceVC said:

And just to clarify, I asked Elerond a question around what do you believe is the best system that countries should follow around socialism or do you respect the current common structures that are about Democratically elected governments that all follow the same rules of the free market. ? Do you think countries like Cuba have had an unfair history and response from countries like the US

And also we dont want to unintentionally conflate the success of the Nordic countries to believing Cuba could have been the same because the history and political decisions and outcome of what makes the Nordic countries success stories is very different to Cuba

But I am always interested in peoples views on interesting debates around Capitalist countries and sometimes there internal issues around poverty or inequality and how a socialist system would somehow fix that ?

I think Cuba got a rotten deal, because they never were off to to a good start. Not sure how you would remove a general from power other than revolution? Unfortunately he was owned and paid by the US tobacco industry, so the only ones who wanted to help were the Soviets. Fast forward half a century and between Cubans in exile and half a century old US dogma, there is no way the Cuban story can be allowed to be a success story, so it has to be crushed in any which way possible, humanitarian costs being acceptable collateral. They could have fair and free elections between multiple parties tomorrow and Cuba would still be screwed.

 

Scandinavian countries were somewhat better off. At least we only lived next door to Germany. When they aren't busy invading us (us as in Denmark), they are happy to trade with us. We usually sell stuff to them at outrageous overprices too while laughing behind their backs.

 

I mentioned in the past, that I'm more than anything an "anarchist". I believe any institution that becomes too big is a danger to us. Whether it's a bank, a corporation, a church or a government. They serve their own inhuman ideals first and foremost and individuals will inevitable become crushed by the grinding gears of such institutions. I say, break them up, tear them down, bring power and decision making closer to the individual. Unregulated capitalist systems inevitably leads to monopolies where you get to pay everything you have for nothing, given enough time. It's probably not a coincidence that eh EU Commissioner for Competition (basically a watchdog keeping large monopolies in check) is from Denmark. You need governments by the people for the people and a transparency that would make many governments shiver in fear for people to feel as happy about their governments as the Scandinavians.

[majestic]

Fake News err Faux News eeeerrrrr Fox News is calling Trump a fascist. Good, good. He'll probably be removed from Sharp_One's signature now, right?

Edited October 18, 2020 by majestic

[Malcador]

20 minutes ago, majestic said:

Fake News err Faux News eeeerrrrr Fox News is calling Trump a fascist. Good, good. He'll probably be removed from Sharp_One's signature now, right?

404 now

[Skarpen]

 

[majestic]

4 hours ago, Skarpen said:

 

Well, it looks like the leftist fasco-socialist corporation Twitter locked another account in their fight against Freedom™.

[MedicineDan]

I always try at least to look over the last few posts when I come to this thread.  I also *always* come to this thread no matter where else I go for the past several months.  I'm going to make a simple statement to start:  my friend Gorth is very Jeffersonian.  There's a grand and long tradition among some of the best thinkers to lean anarchist.  I pray that true anarchy doesn't come until long after you're gone.  The anarchy writ small that you describe?  Enjoy it before it takes over everything.  Anarchy writ grand is your undoing.  Democracy must live its day between tyranny and anarchy.  Well.. maybe that's the recovering nihilist talking.

Anyhow, I never buy into people arguing against the polls.  Trump did overperform them in the last election.  I suspect he will overperform him in the next election.  Still, unless they tighten considerably, however, I can't see them being *this* wrong.  However, while I won't make apologist arguments, unlike some of the double or triple hypocrites here, I still think Trump voters should show up to the polls.  Just because your guy might lose is never an excuse to stay at home.  The Biden people can afford to relax and stay at home.  They've got the numbers.  Trump Righteous supporters might lose, but make them count your vote!

[Skarpen]

50 minutes ago, majestic said:

Well, it looks like the leftist fasco-socialist corporation Twitter locked another account in their fight against Freedom™.

Wow. That's classy. For people who didn't have a chance to see the tweet it was a tweet from Philip Anderson, an afroamerican who was beaten and called N-word by antifa thugs on free speech rally. Tweet was a video of Anderson asking Biden if he still supports antifa. Guess that's a big no-no for Twitter.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/free-speech-rally-twitter-protest-in-san-francisco/2382060/%3famp

[Malcador]

Odd question for Biden, really.

[Raithe]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/10/how-the-trump-admin-devastated-the-cdc-and-continues-to-cripple-it/?

The CDC has been neutered, shamed, and blamed amid the novel coronavirus pandemic and global crisis. From internal missteps that bungled the country’s rollout of diagnostic testing to blatant political interference and strong-arming on critical public health guidance, the CDC has gone from the world’s premier public health agency to a silenced, overridden, distrusted afterthought in the US response—an agency stripped of its ability to collect even basic health data from hospitals during a raging pandemic.

[Raithe]

For the discussion points..

[Guard Dog]

Fascist is a word that has completely lost its definition. 

[Gfted1]

Uninsured people should really look into UHC. I thought it was the law but I guess not. Weird.

[Gromnir]

58 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Fascist is a word that has completely lost its definition. 

define fascism. may not be as easy as you believe. umberto eco has a list o' fourteen qualities, and none o' those qualities is gonna be relevant to the political ideological spectrum.

to be fair, fascism is not ez to define and the imagination gravity o' nazi germany with all its lurid images and anecdotes has made efforts to define fascism even more problematic. is impossible to not think o' nazis when one thinks o' fascism, yes?

aside...

the aca does not provide universal health care. misconception or simple ignorance? who can say what causes the continuing belief there is universal health care in the US? obamacare forces employers to provide health insurance for full time employees, so particular during/post recession, many businesses switched to a model where they replaced full-time positions with multiple part-time workers or redefined employees as contract workers. predictable outcome.

if you got no income whatsoever, you can indeed get help o' the government in covering your health care, but what if like so many americans you have an income which has you bare able to pay for food, utilities and rent? cut your individual health insurance from $500 per month to $250 is a huge savings, but it not change fact many americans need decide 'tween food, rent, housing and health insurance. in such a situation, many people understandable choose to forgo healthcare. not need reference maslow's hierarchy o' needs to be making same decision.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-these-new-york-emts-are-seeing-as-they-respond-to-covid-19-cases

"The average salary for an EMT in New York state, doing what we're doing through all of this, is about $37,000 a year."

something near 40% o' nyc emt did not have health insurance at the beginning o' the year. pandemic hit and these men and women were essential workers who continued to save lives in spite o' fact they could not afford personal health insurance.

is some serious gaps in the aca and the US does not by any stretch o' the imagination have uhc.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 19, 2020 by Gromnir

[Skarpen]

4 hours ago, Malcador said:

Odd question for Biden, really.

Is it?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-antifa-idea-what-we-know.amp

[Malcador]

Well, yes, as stating it's an idea isn't supporting it, as the article linked states it is in line with the FBI's stance (which isn't wrong).  As for condemning them, I guess Biden could say directly Antifa is bad but seem redundant given he's said burning buildings, violence, etc. are bad.

Reading the comments on that article and others linked from it are funny, people seem to think Biden winning will mean Antifa will take over the US

 

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Fascist is a word that has completely lost its definition. 

As has Communist, Socialist, Democrat, Terrorist, etc...

[Malcador]

4 minutes ago, Sarex said:

As has Communist, Socialist, Democrat, Terrorist, etc...

And RPG

[Gfted1]

Looks like we need more UHC up in here then. Of course none of this would have been a problem if we had elected the best candidate on the planet, Andrew Yang, and gotten that sweet sweet UBI. I smh at the lost opportunity for everyone to afford UHC. Damn shame.

[Zoraptor]

23 minutes ago, Malcador said:

And RPG

Oh god yes. Absolute pet peeve of mine. It's in the name people, an RPG is Rocket Propelled; something like a Panzerfaust or PIAT is not Rocket Propelled so it's not an RPG.

[Guard Dog]

Is it just me or is trump becoming even more unwrapped as we get closer to the end of this thing?

[Gfted1]

Yeah he seems to be circling the bowl.

[Darkpriest]

Right before elections. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/justice-department-to-file-long-awaited-antitrust-suit-against-google-11603195203

Coincidence? 

[Pidesco]

Even internal polling is dire for Trump, and GOP senators are beginning to break away. And Trump isn't the most wrapped of people to begin with.

 

Some recent polls have been slightly improved for Trump in a couple of swing states, but nothing that tips the scales all that much. At this point, the more interesting question is how many senate seats can the Democrats take. That's the thing that will affect US legislation the most in the next couple of years.

[ComradeYellow]

4 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Even internal polling is dire for Trump, and GOP senators are beginning to break away. And Trump isn't the most wrapped of people to begin with.

 

Some recent polls have been slightly improved for Trump in a couple of swing states, but nothing that tips the scales all that much. At this point, the more interesting question is how many senate seats can the Democrats take. That's the thing that will affect US legislation the most in the next couple of years.

From 2008-2010 Democrats wiped the floor in congress...and they did absolutely nothing!  If they squander it, yet another Teabag-esque Republican momentum will come in and start the cycle all over again.