Politics - wait for it... wait for it... 2020 isn't over yet

[ktchong]

I remember millennial progressives gave a nickname to Kamala Harris during the primary:

"AWFUL EVERYTHING"

Kamala is basically a Clinton surrogate.  Her campaign staff in the primary were basically the Clinton people.  Hillary personally pulled strings for her during the primary. The midwest states HATE the Clintons, and when they realize Kamala got to be Biden's running mate due to some intense power play and string pulling by the Clintons who still control the DNC, Biden + Kamala and Democrats will lose the "Blue Wall" states.  This time, permanently.

Tulsi owning Kamala during the debate and eliminating Kamala from the primary was the only one small victory for progressives from the primary, yet the DNC’s establishment corporatists and neoliberals would not even allow progressives to have that that little consolation. The DNC basically gave a big F you” middle finger to the progressives — in its recent string of big “F you” to progressives — by bring Kamala back from the dead.

So, progressives should give a big “F you” middle finger back to the DNC. Just hope Trump will win and his re-election will destruct the DNC.

Let it burn, let it burn...

Edited August 14, 2020 by ktchong

[Volourn]

Kamala is forgiven because Trump is a literal Nazi. In fact, he is worse than Hitler. Remember, the people you speak of still believe BLM is all about peace and equality and love while said BLM are murdering little children, murdering black skinned people who wear red hats, and targeting black people causing them to lose their troubles. 

[Maedhros]

5 hours ago, Volourn said:

The deal shouldn't be surprising. Whatever side of the Isreal-Palestine debate you are on, the ME/Muslim coutnries there don't care about Palestine. They don't even treat Palestinians who live in their own countries all that humanely. The only reason why those countries care about the conflict at all is because of how much the populace and governments hate Jews..

Also, it is so intellectually dishonest to see Palestinians or anyone whining about how Isreal 'stole' Palestinian land.  That was Isreal land first and was stolen from them. Plus, modern 'Palestine' is a relatively  modern creation. It reminds me of Natives whining about the evil white man stealing 'their' land while a) proclaiming the land belongs to 'everybody' and b) native tribes had a long history of 'stealing' land from other tribes.

 

[Gromnir]

Trump's Senior Advisor Tried to Roast Kamala Harris with a Simpsons Burn. Marge Isn't Having It.

...

will forgo our traditional exeunt in lieu o' something more appropriate.

 

[ComradeYellow]

11 hours ago, Volourn said:

Kamala is forgiven because Trump is a literal Nazi. In fact, he is worse than Hitler. Remember, the people you speak of still believe BLM is all about peace and equality and love while said BLM are murdering little children, murdering black skinned people who wear red hats, and targeting black people causing them to lose their troubles. 

Most of the population supports BLM though so you're opinion on them is fringe.

Personally, I don't think it's a proper revolutionary movement but it is a good start.  A wise man from Eastern Europe who now lives in the U.S.A. said that BLM reminds him of the the Ukronazi's in the Ukraine who hate everything about Russia.  Just switch Russians to White Americans and it's nearly identical.  However, systemic racism in Amerikkka does need to stop.

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Personally, I don't think it's a proper revolutionary movement but it is a good start.  A wise man from Eastern Europe who now lives in the U.S.A. said that BLM reminds him of the the Ukronazi's in the Ukraine who hate everything about Russia.  Just switch Russians to White Americans and it's nearly identical.  However, systemic racism in Amerikkka does need to stop.

It shouldn't be referred to as normal revolutionary movement because normally that word is used to describe movements that has clear goals that mattered to the people involved, these goals can normally be articulated and are consistent even if other people dont agree and most of the time modern day revolutionary movements do have quantifiable and achievable objectives 

BLM is at its core well meaning and has several objectives I support and I  understand  why some  people feel unfairly discriminated against in certain examples . But I wont put Antifa in the BLM group because I believe they ultimately add to the overall lack of  social cohesion in the USA and also they dont help with real meaningful debate about issues that require forms of normal etiquette and people actually wanting to debate ....but Antifa is not required to be part of any meaningful dialogue so there views should not dismiss the positive aspects of any discussion around social issues in the USA

But if you consider the BLM core objectives they not really things you can implement in any normal revolutionary movement, for example any objective must be able to be actually implemented legally or through a societal change. BLM has many objectives but the common goals are normally about comments around " police must stop killing African Americans " and we must end the reality of " systemic racism " that seems to come across as only existing in Western countries which are all first world countries and have a history of people coming from Europe hundreds of years ago. And in many cases the early settlers did not always consider indigenous people as having valid rights to land and resources....so its silly to ignore the harm done by the arrival of Europeans in certain ways. But things have changed a lot since then in all countries and it isnt going to improve the reality of minorities and address inequality if you suggest that abuse implemented hundreds of years ago is the reason we still see most social issues raised or because a society was historically created on the foundation of injustice it means the society nowadays is deeply flawed and or racist ....there are other reasons that just dont get addressed or rather there a failures of policy sometimes

But in the context of SA for example sometimes activists raise Colonialism  and Apartheid as the primary reasons we have numerous failures in transformation and the current and much more pressing reasons get ignored 

And finally I have to add because it gets brought up by some BLM  commentators that there interpretation of how to solve certain valid examples of discrimination is where they basically generalize about all white  people and our own understanding of racism in a way that is condescending and is even sometimes based on  a view that white people are ignorant and need to be educated to understand how or what offensive comments are.....and then this is justified by examples of real racist comments or people being ignorant about normal reasonable goals to address discrimination

And yet this is not the views of many white people who do understand the historical reality of there countries and support changes that make sense where applicable 

Interesting introspective question to ask yourself, if you believe that systemic racism is the common and entrenched reason for many of the BLM goals what should change in your respective country  legally to reduce this problem....because the obvious challenge is you cant legislate how people think or how they view certain developments 

For me the problems around inequality and discrimination in most first world countries dont exist primarily because of factors like systemic racism but rather economic realities and certain failures and implementation of policies that are well meaning but can be abused. Also people sometimes make choices around education and that can definitely impact there ability to be part of any growing economy 

And of course sometimes things can be clearly about discrimination but this is not the main cause of outcomes we see 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by BruceVC

[ComradeYellow]

43 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting introspective question to ask yourself, if you believe that systemic racism is the common and entrenched reason for many of the BLM goals what should change in your respective country  legally to reduce this problem....because the obvious challenge is you cant legislate how people think or how they view certain developments 

As myself and I think it was also @Skarpen who brought up the point that a lot if not most of the problems with race in the U.S. are more mechanical issues rather than deeply embedded ones.  I mean sure the U.S. has a long history of doing real bad things to ethnic minorities (to put it mildly) but I think if we tinker around with things like getting rid of the 18,000 police agencies scattered across the country and condense them down to double digits it would curb police brutality against minorities significantly.  Also, reworking the economy so that basic needs and non discriminatory working environments with good wages and benefits could also curb the violent racism that's inherent in the class structure of U.S. society.

If all that fails then yeah, time for a complete overhaul of the United States root and stem.

Edited August 15, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[BruceVC]

37 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

As myself and I think it was also @Skarpen who brought up the point that a lot if not most of the problems with race in the U.S. are more mechanical issues rather than deeply embedded ones.  I mean sure the U.S. has a long history of doing real bad things to ethnic minorities (to put it mildly) but I think if we tinker around with things like getting rid of the 18,000 police agencies scattered across the country and condense them down to double digits it would curb police brutality against minorities significantly.  Also, reworking the economy so that basic needs and non discriminatory working environments with good wages and benefits could also curb the violent racism that's inherent in the class structure of U.S. society.

I appreciate you responding because my question is a real one and in each country that grapples with examples of discrimination there will be different policies and ways to make things better

And I am always interested when it comes to a country like the USA what are the suggestions from people who raise BLM issues what they are practically expecting to change or be addressed. And I think this is a harder objective purely because there will be different views on this which can be a valid reason for apparent lack of  consensus or action 

Interestingly enough your view about how the US police force is overall a problem is echoed by many Americans I have asked this question to, not just on this forum but people I sometimes work with are who based in the USA but they are normally involved in a product escalation perspective which means you may not have any time or appropriate time to start talking politics. But sometimes I will engage with the same person for weeks and you have many Teams sessions and you dont always need to discuss work 

So last night I was chatting to such a person who is based in Florida. I like this guy, he is typical of most people I deal with at this level who are normally based in the USA. He has extensive experience with numerous products and understands many financial and banking systems which makes his knowledge very relevant 

Anyway I started a discussion with him that was optional around US politics and we ended up chatting for close to 90 minutes around the current state of the USA. He was very happy to share his reasonable view of things and I learnt several new things but he also specifically mentioned his low opinion of the way the US police operates or is trained ....so the general negative view of the US police is more wide spread than I would have guessed

Personally I dont believe it is necessary or helpful to vilify the entire US police force as this assumes that the whole police force is part of the problem which I dont believe but I respect the opinions of citizens who live in the actual country and in this case the concern cannot be just ignored or dismissed entirely as a " generalization " which sometimes on certain topics  many people believe but its doesnt make it a real systemic  problem that can or should be  changed 

So for example the general negative opinion people have of the financial sector is sometimes unfair and assumes banks dont learn from past mistakes and or criminal activity 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

16 hours ago, ktchong said:

I remember millennial progressives gave a nickname to Kamala Harris during the primary:

"AWFUL EVERYTHING"

Kamala is basically a Clinton surrogate.  Her campaign staff in the primary were basically the Clinton people.  Hillary personally pulled strings for her during the primary. The midwest states HATE the Clintons, and when they realize Kamala got to be Biden's running mate due to some intense power play and string pulling by the Clintons who still control the DNC, Biden + Kamala and Democrats will lose the "Blue Wall" states.  This time, permanently.

Tulsi owning Kamala during the debate and eliminating Kamala from the primary was the only one small victory for progressives from the primary, yet the DNC’s establishment corporatists and neoliberals would not even allow progressives to have that that little consolation. The DNC basically gave a big F you” middle finger to the progressives — in its recent string of big “F you” to progressives — by bring Kamala back from the dead.

So, progressives should give a big “F you” middle finger back to the DNC. Just hope Trump will win and his re-election will destruct the DNC.

Let it burn, let it burn...

Yes but you have openly expressed support for a Trump victory because you want that outcome to continue to undermine the USA and or impact its important positive role in the world

So your strange objective of somehow wanting the US to become worse off also tells me your criticism of Kamala can be ignored due to your open bias and lack of belief in wanting the US to get better 

Personally I feel your normal way of attempting to race bait and annoy white people with certain generalizations is more interesting and  provoking because its commentary that I sometimes hear from others ....but this latest support of a Trump victory and suggesting that Kamala is a terrible choice is not convincing at all ?

 

 

[Guard Dog]

More than 50 Confederate symbols moved, taken down in wake of George Floyd's death, study says

One thing has little to do with the other but, OK. As I have said in the past I'm ambivalent about the display of Confederate symbols. The Confederacy is certainly not worthy of the honoring it's received. It was a product of the times it existed in and the cause of the tragic loss of so many people defending something so immoral. There was no glorious "lost cause" despite the understandable need of people to convince themselves their ancestors were not terrible people. I certainly don't own any and would never display any (as if there were anyone here to even see them ) but it's not my place to tell others what to do. 

Robert E Lee himself said they should be put away. He was right.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I learned more about the Confederacy and colonialism from a smattering of 10< minute articles than I did in 13 (k-12) years of the Texas public school system. Admittedly Texas tends to rank poorly in terms of public education, but poor historical education seems to be consistent in the US regardless of state when it comes to the more unsavory aspects of history involving the US and pre-US colonies. I'm not sure if there is any real solution, but it's something I've been thinking about lately.

[ComradeYellow]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

More than 50 Confederate symbols moved, taken down in wake of George Floyd's death, study says

One thing has little to do with the other but, OK. As I have said in the past I'm ambivalent about the display of Confederate symbols. The Confederacy is certainly not worthy of the honoring it's received. It was a product of the times it existed in and the cause of the tragic loss of so many people defending something so immoral. There was no glorious "lost cause" despite the understandable need of people to convince themselves their ancestors were not terrible people. I certainly don't own any and would never display any (as if there were anyone here to even see them ) but it's not my place to tell others what to do. 

Robert E Lee himself said they should be put away. He was right.

The Confederate government accomplished two things that are noteworthy.  One actually made it into the United States after the war, one did not (yet!).

1. The Justice Department 

2. The abolishment of political parties

Like all defeated powers, they contain pieces of the puzzle. 

[Hurlshort]

3 hours ago, KaineParker said:

I learned more about the Confederacy and colonialism from a smattering of 10< minute articles than I did in 13 (k-12) years of the Texas public school system. Admittedly Texas tends to rank poorly in terms of public education, but poor historical education seems to be consistent in the US regardless of state when it comes to the more unsavory aspects of history involving the US and pre-US colonies. I'm not sure if there is any real solution, but it's something I've been thinking about lately.

I am sure it will sound like an excuse, but maybe most children aged 6-18 are not all that receptive to learning history. It is much easier to be enaged in history once you've lived long enough to have some context and insight into the world around you. 

[Gromnir]

unsolicited advice:

if you use mail for your ballot this november, ignore the pre-paid postage and instead affix a stamp. with our federal government purposeful diminishing the capacity o' the usps during a freaking pandemic, there will be delays in service. in most states, if a ballot arrives a few days late, as long as it is postmarked appropriate, the ballot will be counted towards the election results. the thing is, the pre-paid postage class o' ballots results in no date stamp being affixed to ballots returned in the provided envelopes. functional this means that your ballot, even if you mailed in a timely fashion, may not be counted. 

am predicting many thousands o' ballots, and perhaps millions, will not be counted 'cause o' postmark issues.  such stoopid is not the kinda "fraud" trump describes, nevertheless, these predictable ballot fails is the result o' willful changes being made to postal service by the current administration. predictable does make the pitfalls avoidable.

very few o' us pay for something we know we are not required to make payment. is no good reason you should need to affix a stamp to your pre-paid postage ballots. however, in these times when the democratic process is being attacked and undermined in new ways every time we check newspapers or watch wh briefings, it is going to be to your benefit to take a couple extra steps to protect your liberties.

again, is Not your responsibility to place a stamp on a prepaid ballot, but you are now forewarned o' a seeming trivial and unobtrusive means by which potential millions o' votes will be suppressed this november. do not let anybody make it ez to steal your vote.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 16, 2020 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

3 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

I am sure it will sound like an excuse, but maybe most children aged 6-18 are not all that receptive to learning history. It is much easier to be enaged in history once you've lived long enough to have some context and insight into the world around you. 

I think this is exactly correct. The wonder, terribleness, and importance of history other half gains much more gravity once you have travelled around a bit. Actually visiting a battlefield site, or a historical location does a lot to make appreciate the importance. But nothing does than more than the future widening of knowledge. 

 

Edit: I joked with someone once it's a good thing I visited the Iwo Jima monument and the Marine Corps museum after I had left the service... I might have re-enlisted!

Edited August 16, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Gorth]

I wonder why it took me so many years to discover this guy. I've been on a youtube watching spree recently. Absolutely love his ability to cut through BS and call things out

 

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

I wonder why it took me so many years to discover this guy.

Carlin was the best.

[ComradeYellow]

I've known about Carlin and watched him since I was a teen but it seems recently his material is really starting to resonate, like he was way way ahead of his time.  Or maybe he wasn't just everyone else was/is way way behind. 

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

I've known about Carlin and watched him since I was a teen but it seems recently his material is really starting to resonate, like he was way way ahead of his time.  Or maybe he wasn't just everyone else was/is way way behind. 

your narcissism is revealing. is not as if carlin were some kinda fringe comic unappreciated by the public in his own time. heck, in 1972, carlin's seven words you can never say on television were receiving national radio airtime and the resulting court case also garnered widespread attention.

warning: sweary

also 1972... not the movie, but the actual real life events.

is as if some people forget what were happening in this country in the late 60s and early 70s. carlin were speaking to his time not in spite of it.

think you are woke? 

*snort*

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 18, 2020 by Gromnir

[ComradeYellow]

Why do people attack me for the dumbest most strawman things like they have some kind of axe to grind?

[Chilloutman]

4 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Why do people attack me for the dumbest most strawman things like they have some kind of axe to grind?

you name yourself comrade, its not hard to get the axe for it

[213374U]

I'm sure that random generational putdowns, random racial putdowns, random gender putdowns and random political putdowns have nothing to do with the climate of extreme division facing murica and more broadly speaking, the West. Nope, completely unrelated.

Keep it up guys, useful exchanges are ephemeral but internets points are forever.

[Malcador]

26 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Why do people attack me for the dumbest most strawman things like they have some kind of axe to grind?

Because everyone here was bullied as a child.

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

you name yourself comrade, its not hard to get the axe for it

would also help if he knew what is a strawman fallacy. 

oh, and just for funsies, am recalling a carlin quote which might be relevant.

"So I want to thank the Pentagon, the Soviet Union and the military-industrial complex from the bottom of my heart. Without them, I could never have become the man I am today."

george were a big fan o' soviet style oppression.

*eye-roll*

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 18, 2020 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, 213374U said:

Keep it up guys, useful exchanges are ephemeral but internets points are forever.

In the grimy darkness of the Internet, there are only slap fights

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/18/usps-chief-louis-dejoy-suspends-some-changes-to-post-office-until-after-2020-election.html

USPS' qualified Postmaster General halting his changes to it for a while.