Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Elric Galad]

21 minutes ago, Bosmer said:

Actually, it's optimal to use the ability from distance with melee + blunderbuss. Gives up to 4*2 stacks after one shot with driving flight. Do you think that this behaviour might be fixable? It's definitely not supposed to be a best-used-ranged ability  but thank you for your answer and I get your thoughts regarding dual-wield. 

Well maybe, but it is far from being obvious to say the least. I've discarded fixing the "ranged weapon paired with melee weapon + melee attack" issue, which applies to several abilities, most noticeably clear out.

This one isn't big and gives support to "classic blunderbuss" (opposed to mortars) setting. So I guess it's ok.

[NotDumbEnough]

Did you test it out yourself? I'm pretty sure it didn't work like that in the past (you get only one stack per weapon regardless of how many hits).

[Elric Galad]

3 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Did you test it out yourself? I'm pretty sure it didn't work like that in the past (you get only one stack per weapon regardless of how many hits).

Nope  

[Bosmer]

I tested it with console abilities and items and it is .. a bit inconsitent. Blunderbuss usually gives more than 2 stacks with driving flight..sometimes it’s more than three but not always.

[Exanos]

What do you think about "beetle shell" (druid spell) ? A fixed 200pt damage shield but you can't act.

I never found a real reason to pick it for a pl3 spell, i found withdraw more effective when you need to emergency save someone (from priest or scroll).

I would like to suggest some tweaks to it, i'm not fixed on what to do, i'm just throwing some idea : 

- less shield (100 base), no duration and allow to move, reducing stride may be ok too.

- same shield but you are just rooted and can still act.

- same shield, can't act, but part of the damage taken is dealt to the attacker (like pain link).

- allow the shield to scale with pl.

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Exanos

[Elric Galad]

18 hours ago, Exanos said:

What do you think about "beetle shell" (druid spell) ? A fixed 200pt damage shield but you can't act.

I never found a real reason to pick it for a pl3 spell, i found withdraw more effective when you need to emergency save someone (from priest or scroll).

I would like to suggest some tweaks to it, i'm not fixed on what to do, i'm just throwing some idea : 

- less shield (100 base), no duration and allow to move, reducing stride may be ok too.

- same shield but you are just rooted and can still act.

- same shield, can't act, but part of the damage taken is dealt to the attacker (like pain link).

- allow the shield to scale with pl.

I don't add scaling rule to shield in general as answered a couple of weeks ago on this thread.

18 hours ago, Exanos said:

 

Beetle Shell has 3 major advantages vs Withdraw :

- It has triple the range, which is quite relevant when the job is to save some party member life

- Less duration/breakable means more flexibility. The 20s(vanilla)/fixed 30s (BPM) out of combat of Withdraw is quite constraining for the team. 

- Doesn't cancel aggro, so your party member still "acts" as a sort of crowd crontrol effect.

 

It has no built-in healing, but druid has plenty of regen spell, so there's a good chance that the target will have one active.

 

Overall I find it not as good as Withdraw for its purpose, also because Tier 3 instead of Tier 2. BUT it has some advantages on its own, and life-saving isn't meant druid's specialty to begin with.

Still I think it fullfills its purpose as it is (reducing casting time to 0.5s was absolutely paramount for it), for which druid has no real other option (apart consumables of course, but that has a money and slot cost). 

[masterty66]

Using Spiritual Weapon on my Berathian/Helwalker PC and man this thing slaps. The +15 accuracy made it very nice from the start of the game but even now that I've started finding late game stuff it still feels strong. Between lightning strikes, turning wheel, and the lash on the sword itself, I hit extremely hard. Getting 100+ hits on squishier enemies is a lot of fun. Feels like all the lashes add up pretty well too. This is my first character I've actually used Lightning Strikes on. Usually would take swift flurry but lightning strikes has actually felt worth it with this build. I'm sure swift flurry still gives spikier damage but there's something to be said for consistently hard hits.

[crdvis16]

I just modded a companion to be a Priest of Skaen and was also surprised at how effective his spiritual weapon is.  It takes time to cast and doesn't last super long but while it's up it does nice damage. 

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, crdvis16 said:

I just modded a companion to be a Priest of Skaen and was also surprised at how effective his spiritual weapon is.  It takes time to cast and doesn't last super long but while it's up it does nice damage. 

Note that you can get Martial Caster at some point that gives +100% (with BPM) casting speed for summoned weapon.

Basically Quickswitch for Summoned Weapons. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Elric Galad

[masterty66]

4 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Note that you can get Martial Caster at some point that gives +100% (with BPM) casting speed for summoned weapon.

Basically Quickswitch for Summoned Weapons. 

Yes this is very nice although honestly I didn't find the casting too slow even without it. I only picked up that talent recently and I'm pretty deep into the game.

But YMMV of course.

[Not So Clever Hound]

Salut @Elric Galad, quick question for you: did you ever consider adjusting the PL increase/decrease values of the ability Spell Shaping? Didn't find it in the BPM changelogs although I somehow recall a discussion about it, so wanted to check.

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Not So Clever Hound said:

Salut @Elric Galad, quick question for you: did you ever consider adjusting the PL increase/decrease values of the ability Spell Shaping? Didn't find it in the BPM changelogs although I somehow recall a discussion about it, so wanted to check.

No, I never truly considered it, but I kind of remember speaking about it.

Increased AoE is really convenient when needed, even for the cost, while increased PL is just icing on the cake to reward your character with optimum effect.

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

No, I never truly considered it, but I kind of remember speaking about it.

Increased AoE is really convenient when needed, even for the cost, while increased PL is just icing on the cake to reward your character with optimum effect.

OK thanks. That makes sense.

I have dug up the old thread below where people found the values a bit too asymmetrical (-5PL for approx. +40% foe-only AoE, +1PL for approx. -50% foe-only AoE). I think I agree with the idea that -4PL/+2PL would feel more right. Maybe something to consider for your next batch of improvements, if any?

Not really a game changer either way, but could make it more worth the ability point..

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

OK thanks. That makes sense.

I have dug up the old thread below where people found the values a bit too asymmetrical (-5PL for approx. +40% foe-only AoE, +1PL for approx. -50% foe-only AoE). I think I agree with the idea that -4PL/+2PL would feel more right. Maybe something to consider for your next batch of improvements, if any?

Not really a game changer either way, but could make it more worth the ability point..

 

The area increase is so convenient at time (for any Crowd Control especially, sometimes for healing too in my experience) and +2 PL from a single ability point even situational would be too powerful.

I still cling to the idea that the values are fine and that improving them would make it an almost "mandatory" talent, which I don't want it to be.

[Bosmer]

Hey Elric!

I tried to play around with your changes to the Shifter subclass. Reading the patch notes I thought that the 75s cooldown was a cooldown only to the specific spiritshift form used, but it seems that it blocks all spiritshift forms for 75s. I assume that's intentional and I wonder if that's really supporting the idea behind the shifter subclass (i.e. shifting in and out of the different forms as you need their features and abilities).

[NotDumbEnough]

There's a secondary mod that gives each form its own cooldown iirc. I do think a shared cooldown is good, otherwise Shifter pretty much has only upsides and no downsides. Shift into each form, use their active abilities, then immediately shift back and cast spells.

[Bosmer]

52 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

There's a secondary mod that gives each form its own cooldown iirc. I do think a shared cooldown is good, otherwise Shifter pretty much has only upsides and no downsides. Shift into each form, use their active abilities, then immediately shift back and cast spells.

Aaah thanks for pointing that out. I went back a few slides and found the Mod (by @Jayd linked in a post from May 24, 2022) and the discussion. I can understand both sides but in this case I think that BPM shifter might be balanced and still powerful but loses its main appeal (and fun imho.. especially in short fights where the cooldowns don't play a role).

Another possibility to balance the Shifter subclass could be by adding recovery to shifting, such that the opportunity costs of quickly shifting in and out increase.

Link of the mod is: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/613/

Edited February 8, 2023 by Bosmer

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

There's a secondary mod that gives each form its own cooldown iirc. I do think a shared cooldown is good, otherwise Shifter pretty much has only upsides and no downsides. Shift into each form, use their active abilities, then immediately shift back and cast spells.

Yes, basically this.

There might be other way to do but I'm probably not going to reopen the subject.

You have to consider that I also worked a lot to make all shifts balanced which also increases the benefits of the subclass.

Adding a cooldown on a modal would feel weird.

 

But I fully get why one would prefer Jayd's version. No harm in modding a mod

[Bosmer]

52 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Yes, basically this.

There might be other way to do but I'm probably not going to reopen the subject.

You have to consider that I also worked a lot to make all shifts balanced which also increases the benefits of the subclass.

Adding a cooldown on a modal would feel weird.

 

But I fully get why one would prefer Jayd's version. No harm in modding a mod

Yeah I completely see your point and playing with Jayd’s mod I have to admit: it’s overpowered - at least in the short fights in the beginning .. but also a lot of fun
 

I want to try shape shifting with your backstab and assassinate changes, maybe I’m able to chain an arquebus+shapeshift full-attack fast enough..

[cohlin]

Any chance barbarian's blood frenzy self damage can be nerfed? Never pick it cuz it is unreasonably high, at least for me .

[Boeroer]

What do you mean? The Berserker's self damage from Blood Frenzy is not different from the Spirit Frenzy or non-upgraded Frenzy self damage.

The Berserker's Frenzy base damage is actually fine imo (most players don't have a probem with it in the early game) - it just scales steeply which is very noticably at higher levels.
This is fine if you raise CON and don't drop it. Then your health pool can grow in a somewhat similar fashion as the self damage rises.
I did so with my latest Helwalker/Berserker build where I even maxed CON. Even with the "synergy" of Berserker's self damage + Helwalker's <=50% damage bonus (which grants you tons and tons of wounds) I had almost zero problems with knocking myself out. I didn't even pick Savage Defiance. But I used Voidward Ring and Death's Maw to get some Damage Reduction. I'm sure that helped, too. Anyway I was pretty surprised myself that the build was so relatively sturdy. With a pet that heals on kill (see Abraham for example) and a somewhat decent healer in the party this can become a no-problem imo.

But maybe the scaling could be a bit less aggressive. After all it is pretty steep and climbs more quickly than the average Barb's health pool can keep up. You have to relaly know your stuff in order to not getting frustrated at higher levels. Maybe a passive that lowers the self damage could be introduced or something like that. Making it an option...? A bit like Fighter's upgraded Constant Recovery passive. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Boeroer

[Bosmer]

39 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

What do you mean? The Berserker's self damage from Blood Frenzy is not different from the Spirit Frenzy or non-upgraded Frenzy self damage.

The Berserker's Frenzy base damage is actually fine imo (most players don't have a probem with it in the early game) - it just scales steeply which is very noticably at higher levels.
This is fine if you raise CON and don't drop it. Then your health pool can grow in a somewhat similar fashion as the self damage rises.
I did so with my latest Helwalker/Berserker build where I even maxed CON. Even with the "synergy" of Berserker's self damage + Helwalker's <=50% damage bonus (which grants you tons and tons of wounds) I had almost zero problems with knocking myself out. I didn't even pick Savage Defiance. But I used Voidward Ring and Death's Maw to get some Damage Reduction. I'm sure that helped, too. Anyway I was pretty surprised myself that the build was so relatively sturdy. With a pet that heals on kill (see Abraham for example) and a somewhat decent healer in the party this can become a no-problem imo.

But maybe the scaling could be a bit less aggressive. After all it is pretty steep and climbs more quickly than the average Barb's health pool can keep up. You have to relaly know your stuff in order to not getting frustrated at higher levels. Maybe a passive that lowers the self damage could be introduced or something like that. Making it an option

I also think that the scaling feels too aggressive and maybe Base damage vs. Scaling damage could be readjusted. BPM, however, already buffs the effects of CON and savage defiance, which should make it easier too manage berserker's frenzy. In addition, mage slayer and corpse eater are also buffed and hence the draws of Berserker might feel more pronounced now. 

[Elric Galad]

59 minutes ago, Bosmer said:

I also think that the scaling feels too aggressive and maybe Base damage vs. Scaling damage could be readjusted. BPM, however, already buffs the effects of CON and savage defiance, which should make it easier too manage berserker's frenzy. In addition, mage slayer and corpse eater are also buffed and hence the draws of Berserker might feel more pronounced now. 

Berzekers isn't supposed to be a strict upgrade over barbarian though. +2 PEN, + 2 AR, and 30% Hit to Crit is top tier material. It has to have a significant drawback, not just one that forces you into Mowdyr/DoCB. I won't use Blood Storm with Zerkers cause you won't control the Frenzy duration as well. Voidward and BPM Moon Godlike help mitigating the damages as well.

BPM Savage Defiance buff helps too. Also indirectly since it doesn't cancel/make redundant Hardy anymore since it is no more a Robust inspiration.

At high level, you will have way more ways of mitigating the health loss, so the scaling is nasty but probably appropriate.

But a Berzeker best interest may not be to be 100% of time under Frenzy effect. Basically you use it when you have health to spare, as for Sacred Immolation.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

But a Berzeker best interest may not be to be 100% of time under Frenzy effect. Basically you use it when you have health to spare, as for Sacred Immolation.

Actually, with high CON and a bit of DR as described above, I use it 100% of times (vanilla version) at lvl 20 still.
 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

+2 PEN, + 2 AR, and 30% Hit to Crit is top tier material. It has to have a significant drawback, not just one that forces you into Mowdyr/DoCB.

True, but don't forget that besides the Confusion you will always have concealed health which is a serious drawback for all unexperienced players, too.
As I said I'm totally fine with the self damage personally - but I think it scales too steeply for "normal" players. Starting higher and scaling less aggressively might not be a bad suggestion I think.  

Edited February 10, 2023 by Boeroer

[cohlin]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

What do you mean? The Berserker's self damage from Blood Frenzy is not different from the Spirit Frenzy or non-upgraded Frenzy self damage.

The Berserker's Frenzy base damage is actually fine imo (most players don't have a probem with it in the early game) - it just scales steeply which is very noticably at higher levels.
This is fine if you raise CON and don't drop it. Then your health pool can grow in a somewhat similar fashion as the self damage rises.
I did so with my latest Helwalker/Berserker build where I even maxed CON. Even with the "synergy" of Berserker's self damage + Helwalker's <=50% damage bonus (which grants you tons and tons of wounds) I had almost zero problems with knocking myself out. I didn't even pick Savage Defiance. But I used Voidward Ring and Death's Maw to get some Damage Reduction. I'm sure that helped, too. Anyway I was pretty surprised myself that the build was so relatively sturdy. With a pet that heals on kill (see Abraham for example) and a somewhat decent healer in the party this can become a no-problem imo.

But maybe the scaling could be a bit less aggressive. After all it is pretty steep and climbs more quickly than the average Barb's health pool can keep up. You have to relaly know your stuff in order to not getting frustrated at higher levels. Maybe a passive that lowers the self damage could be introduced or something like that. Making it an option...? A bit like Fighter's upgraded Constant Recovery passive. 

Yes that's what I mean, the scaling is harsh. Like if u max STR and dump CON, it would be quite annoying. In vanilla version for most time I'll just pick shout as the main ability, reliable aoe cc and damage, simple and friendly.

Edited February 10, 2023 by cohlin