Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Elric Galad]

It's 2 x PL. So 14 for MC and 20 for Prestiged SC.

14 per tick is a bit above what robust can regen, so isn't that big. Once more it has to be a significant drawback.

SC gets arguably a harsher penalty which doesn't seem fair.

PL scaling is annoying though since it makes any PL boost a drawback.

 

I might be tempted to tune it a little to 3 + (char lvl x 0.5), up to 13 at level 20.

13 is a much more satisfying number than 14 (cause it's rounded 2/3 of 20).

Not much of a boost but just cutting the PL boost drawback.

[Boeroer]

51 minutes ago, cohlin said:

In vanilla version for most time I'll just pick shout as the main ability, reliable aoe cc and damage, simple and friendly.

But then you could just as well pick a Barbarian with no subclass. All the advantages and disadvantages of the Berserker are tied to Frenzy. If a Berserker doesn't pick Frenzy he's exactly like a vanilla Barbarian. 

[NotDumbEnough]

I think that Blackjacket's Rapid Recovery should be buffed a bit, so that the marginal benefit of taking it to improve Constant Recovery is the same as a regular Fighter. It makes sense to have a weaker Constant Recovery because that's the subclass penalty, but I don't think it makes sense that you get less out of spending a skill point in one particular passive ability as compared to a normal fighter.

 

i.e.: Currently Fighter Constant Recovery regen rate is A, with Rapid Recovery regen rate is A + B. Right now Blackjacket Constant Recovery is roughly A/2, and with Rapid Recovery it is roughly A/2 + B/2. I think with Rapid Recovery it should instead be A/2 + B, so that just like a normal fighter the benefit of putting a skill point in Rapid Recovery is B. IIRC this is how other upgrades to core class passives work, so that all subclasses benefit equally. So Ascendant Soul Whip upgrade gets you the same marginal benefit as a normal cipher does.

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I think that Blackjacket's Rapid Recovery should be buffed a bit, so that the marginal benefit of taking it to improve Constant Recovery is the same as a regular Fighter. It makes sense to have a weaker Constant Recovery because that's the subclass penalty, but I don't think it makes sense that you get less out of spending a skill point in one particular passive ability as compared to a normal fighter.

 

i.e.: Currently Fighter Constant Recovery regen rate is A, with Rapid Recovery regen rate is A + B. Right now Blackjacket Constant Recovery is roughly A/2, and with Rapid Recovery it is roughly A/2 + B/2. I think with Rapid Recovery it should instead be A/2 + B, so that just like a normal fighter the benefit of putting a skill point in Rapid Recovery is B. IIRC this is how other upgrades to core class passives work, so that all subclasses benefit equally. So Ascendant Soul Whip upgrade gets you the same marginal benefit as a normal cipher does.

Okay  

[Shai Hulud]

13 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Okay  

I agree with that guy.

Also I thought the blood thirst ability was bugged but after testing it and rereading the descriptions I am convinced it is working correctly, but would request a rewording for clarity.

Description says "Effects: Self per kill (on kill) - recover immediately for 10.0 sec"

Sounds like "For the next 10 seconds, you recover immediately" or possibly "Recover immediately once per kill" (which implies the ability stacks if you were to say one-shot a bunch of summoned skeletons)

For clarity something like "Effects: Self (on kill) - recover immediately once over the next 10.0 sec"

And this ability is really disappointing. I checked in vanilla and it is kinda useful in some builds, like howler you can one-shot a summoned skeleton then attack another enemy, then one-shot a skeleton, etc., reducing overall attack cycle time from like .4 attack + 3s recovery to .4(3) attack

------

And...while I'm bugging you, is it possible to get devoted to work with forbidden fist? Doesn't get the +2 pen or...pretty sure the hit-to-crit.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Shai Hulud
Correction

[NotDumbEnough]

That's just a case of the game's auto-generated tooltips sometimes being weird, you should look at the written description to understand. It's already very good as is, SC barbarian can chain together loads of kills with retaliate and whatnot.

[Elric Galad]

How do you feel about BPM SC Rangers ?

I got recent complaints about it from @Shai Huludso I started thinking again about the class.

 

The thing is, I've tweaked most of SC Rangers abilities and I was pretty satisfied with the results for each of them. To summarize BPM Considerations.

Tier VIII :

Bonded Fury is a 2 Bond instant pet buffer, with all 6 Tier 2 Inspirations. Basically 2 times stronger than BPM Inspired Discipline, but for pet.

Whirling Strikes has not received major buff. Basically a better version of Heart of Fury, but that you can't use with dual mortars. 

Twinned Shot is a great 1 Bond attack, the best for damages apart accurate wounding shot (but instant). The nice thing is that it synergizes extremely well with weapon with per Hit/Crit effects such as the obvious Frost Seeker.

Vengeful Grief is... probably not as useful as I imagined since it indeed works only in a ****ty situation where your pet is down, with all the abilities you invested on it. Probably a good enough ability on its own, but won't make SC that much significant.

(Great Soul is slightly better for all classes)

 

Tier IX :

Stunning Shot : Not changed, does its job. Good ability, maybe not top tier, but good synergizes with stuff like... ahem... Frost Seeker again.

Distraction Training : great now with a reliable stacking debuff and a roughly 7.5% chance of +1 Bond per attack. Good on its own, but won't fuel your build.

Shadowed Hunter : good package of buffs (like 3 times longer Disciplined Strikes, Clarity of Agony, half of Savage Defiance and repositionning for both you and companion), worths its 3 Bonds. Good synergizes with... again Frost Seeker. As @Shai Huludmentionned, a not convenient aspect is that companion shall be alive to be activable, it could make SC Ranger slightly more versatile to remove the requirement (unless it works weirdly since it auto-target the pet, I'll check).

Heart Seeker : the 4 Bond infinite duration Enfeebled, probably the game most powerful attack ability and the biggest trump card of Ranger. Obviously so expensive that can't carry SC Ranger on its own. I feel this ability is forcing a bit SC Ranger usefulness with a single special trick.

(Prestige not changed obviously, probably not worth picking for Ranger)

 

All in all, I find mostly good or very good abilities (I disagree with @Shai Hulud for that) BUT overall I still feel that something doesn't fully work.

I think what causes this impression is the following thing :

- Everything cost a lots of Bonds, from your gamechanging Heart Seeker to humble Marked Prey. Do you want to start with Bonded Fury, Marked Prey and a Heart Seeker Shot ? Good, you have 4 Bonds now (plus bonuses, but still). It's really hard to use these high tier feats without basically skipping every low level ones.

- Ranger scales very poorly with PL. For all non Tier 8-9 abilities, SC Ranger is mostly the same  as MC. The animal companion is the best example.

- There is not something obvious and powerful that would make the SC a go-to solution.

 

So what could I do ?

 

I'm thinking about adding an infinite "pseudo passive" effect to Bonded Fury that causes companion attacks to give back Bond. The inspirations themselves would still be limited duration, but once the Bonded Fury has been activated, the regen will lasts the whole encounter.

 

I could also buff a bit Whirling Strikes and Twinned Shots which are melee and ranged SC Rangers Bread and Butter. The special thing about SC Ranger is their special attacks. (MC Ranger does not have so much punch, by far, but can use their trick and passive to synergize with another class.) These unique attacks can be seen as Ranger true specialty, since they don't have an absolutely gamechanging passive.

I'm thinking about buffing Whirling Strikes DoT duration, and for Twinned Shot... maybe add an additional bounce ? Could cause a bit of an overbuff with a certain weapon quoted several times on this post...

 

I don't want to buff too much Tier 9, cause it could force certain playstyles since Tier 9 ability points are so limited... Having to pick a particular Tier 9 ability is a big constraint for a build.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

I actually think Bonded Fury is a bit weak.

Tenacious -- pretty good, but since baseline damage output of pet is not that great, not worth 2 Bond by itself

Hardy -- meh, if you have Paladin in the party you would have likely gotten +1 AR anyways. +5 constitution is still good

Nimble -- not significantly more useful than just Quick

Aware -- overridden by one of your tier 9 abilities

Acute -- barely useful on the pet

Resolute -- pets don't care that much about interrupts, only somewhat more useful than Steadfast.

What I mean to say is that if you have an AoE buff on your team such as a Chanter that provides tier 1 inspirations you don't really get that much out of Bonded Fury.

Personally I also think Distraction Training tends to be a bit weak, a lot of enemies in the late game can easily break engagement with various skills, and pet damage output is too low to draw enemy aggro. If you are fighting Fampyrs they are just all going to jump away for example. Or your pet might just die from ranged attacks or spells, even with Superior Camouflage, making the fact that it only works vs melee redundant.

Perhaps make the pet more useful when the enemy is ignoring it. e.g. -5 accuracy to engaged enemies, similar to a defensive version of Rogue's Persistent Distraction. Or have pet generate Bond when enemies break engagement similar to Monk's Parting Sorrow.

I think Twinned Shots and Whirling Strikes are both fine, actually quite strong with the correct unique weapons (the warbow that recovers instantly on crit for Twinned Shots, Beast of Winter scepter in offhand for Whirling Strikes, etc.).

[Shai Hulud]

3 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I actually think Bonded Fury is a bit weak.

Tenacious -- pretty good, but since baseline damage output of pet is not that great, not worth 2 Bond by itself

Hardy -- meh, if you have Paladin in the party you would have likely gotten +1 AR anyways. +5 constitution is still good

Nimble -- not significantly more useful than just Quick

Aware -- overridden by one of your tier 9 abilities

Acute -- barely useful on the pet

Resolute -- pets don't care that much about interrupts, only somewhat more useful than Steadfast.

What I mean to say is that if you have an AoE buff on your team such as a Chanter that provides tier 1 inspirations you don't really get that much out of Bonded Fury.

Personally I also think Distraction Training tends to be a bit weak, a lot of enemies in the late game can easily break engagement with various skills, and pet damage output is too low to draw enemy aggro. If you are fighting Fampyrs they are just all going to jump away for example. Or your pet might just die from ranged attacks or spells, even with Superior Camouflage, making the fact that it only works vs melee redundant.

Perhaps make the pet more useful when the enemy is ignoring it. e.g. -5 accuracy to engaged enemies, similar to a defensive version of Rogue's Persistent Distraction. Or have pet generate Bond when enemies break engagement similar to Monk's Parting Sorrow.

I think Twinned Shots and Whirling Strikes are both fine, actually quite strong with the correct unique weapons (the warbow that recovers instantly on crit for Twinned Shots, Beast of Winter scepter in offhand for Whirling Strikes, etc.).

Agree with most of this. Bonded Fury sounds strong on paper and if applied to the Ranger it would be great, but the pet is so bad at combat that giving him tier 2 inspirations is not enough to meaningfully change anything. Pet still has fairly low AR with Hardy. Concentration barely matters so who cares about resolute. Nimble is very meh since you want the pet to tank usually vs running around and it isn't immune to engagement anyway. Aware is okay but shadowed hunter intuitive overrides, acute is meaningless, and even with tenacious pet penetration is not good enough to do damage. 

The pet inspirations that would make the biggest difference are robust (by far) then maybe energized (could make pet useful in combat for slight interrupt procs assuming it can crit things and not die), then swift so you can quickly move it around to block enemies. Intuitive also okay but shadowed hunter is probably a better ability. Brilliant and courageous aren't important for pet. Honestly you could give the pet all tier 3 inspirations and I think it wouldn't be unbalanced because you're making a bad-at-combat pet less bad at combat but still much worse than your companions.

Keeping the pet alive is critical for many useful Ranger abilities (takedown combo, shadowed hunter, etc.) and passives, plus the resource regen from distraction training, plus just the functionality of letting the pet tank. 

I do agree a lot of the abilities cost too much bond to want to use so some kind of bond regen would be very useful, maybe like 15% on crit bond return. Putting the resource regen on bonded fury is problematic because it only works if you can keep the pet alive which you probably can't in tough encounters.

Another thought is a damage to health ability for SC rangers like bleak walkers have, could add this to bonded fury.

But buffing the pet is the most essential aspect to buffing the Ranger. Which is why a seer is much better than a SC Ranger. The seer can keep the pet alive with pain block and gets to keep all the Ranger bonus accuracy buffs. 

SC Ranger needs a way to keep the pet alive. I think changing hardy companion to robust companion would be sufficient, but if you wanted this to be something available to SC rangers only, then altering l8 Bonded Fury to all tier 3s would probably be the best choice (or at least hardy => robust).

Vengeful grief has a very steep price in activating it so it would make more sense to provide stronger buffs (but not so strong you'd prefer the pet dead). Something like adding a frenzy effect in addition to tenacious and nimble (makes more sense with description saying the Ranger is enraged). So you lose a lot of accuracy and abilities but gain attack speed, movement, damage (and lose some deflection). If vengeful grief were made very strong it would be better as a long duration but not permanent buff IMO.

SC needs some things so you don't automatically want to multiclass. Comlare to what you gain through various MC and try to compensate with L8+ abilities. For example MC to fighter gives unbending + more accuracy buffs, MC to cipher gives pain block, pain link, more accuracy and defense, much better tanking with tactical meld, etc. MC to priest helps keep pet alive plus lots of buffs. Really every multiclass option provides big benefits to either the Ranger or pet (usually both) at very little cost.

The easiest way to make SC attractive would be buffing bonded fury and vengeful grief as I've outlined, so bonded fury gives at least robust and some resource regen, and vengeful grief so losing the pet isn't as catastrophic. Shadowed Hunter is good as is except not being able to use it if pet dies which can be addressed by making it easier to keep the pet alive and/or not making casting contingent on the pet being alive. 

I haven't used twinned arrows or whirling strikes that much, mostly because they're expensive in battles that last a long time (most tough encounters), so they could benefit a lot by returning some bond on crit (like stunning surge or gambit)

Stunning shots seems fine and is one of the only real reasons you might prefer a SC Ranger vs MC on very specific builds (ranged crit), melee builds would do better with Ranger / barbarian for interrupt on crit much cheaper, plus frenzy stalwart defiance etc.

A final thought about pet survivability is adding an ability that auto revives the pet with full health and buffs say once / encounter like fighters unbreakable

To summarize

1) Increase survivability for the pet with at minimum a robust inspiration on bonded fury

2) Decrease costs of losing the pet by buffing vengeful grief

3) Add bond renewal mechanisms not dependent on pet (on crit seems most appropriate for ranger) to make active abilities more attractive 

Edit: also, not sure how the power level scaling works for the pet but possibly could the low level abilities like resilient companion be scaled to give a lot more armor (or pen or damage) at high levels? Particularly l8 and l9 to make SC more attractive

Edited February 15, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

So my conclusions for now :

- Bonded Fury needs a buff. Nimble is great in my own experience though. Acute works with several pet abilities, even if not great. Could be tweaked to 1 Bond with a bit of Recovery, since Bond is the issue. 

- Keeping the pet alive isn't that hard in my own experience. Granted my SC experience was with a bear Stalker with a druid in the party spamming AoE regen. Heal/Hardy Companion will probably receive (yet another) buff though, also because Bonded Fury buff could make Hardy obsolete.

- Vengeful Grief could be buffed a bit, maybe without expectation that it will save the class. Maybe a slow Bond Regen.

- I'm not too much in favor of pet independant Bond Regen. The ressource is called Bond after all. And on Crit would be too similar to BPM SC Rogue. The Vengeful Grief Bond regen could address the defavorable scenario when pet is down. 

- I'm considering setting Heart Seeker as per encounter instead of Bond costing. Would ease the Bond dependancy. Or intermediate solution such as cheap with long cooldown. 

To be continued

Edited February 15, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

24 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

So my conclusions for now :

- Bonded Fury needs a buff. Nimble is great in my own experience though. Could ne tweaked to 1 Bond with a bit of Recovery, since Bond is the issue. 

- Keeping the pet alive isn't that hard in my own experience. Granted my SC experience was with a bear Stalker with a druid in the party spamming AoE regen. Heal/Hardy Companion will probably receive (yet another) buff though, also because Bonded Fury buff could make Hardy obsolete.

- Vengeful Grief could be buffed a bit, maybe without expectation that it will save the class. Maybe a slow Bond Regen.

- I'm not too much in favor of pet independant Bond Regen. The ressource is called Bond after all. The Vengeful Grief Bond regen could address the defavorable scenario when pet is down. 

- I'm considering setting Heart Seeker as per encounter instead of Bond costing. Would ease the Bond dependancy. Or intermediate solution such as cheap with long cooldown. 

To be continued

Bonded Fury costs an appropriate amount of bond for its duration. It just needs to be *stronger*. Changing it to 1 bond and doing nothing else...I'm still skipping it. Seriously, you could give the pet ALL tier 3 inspirations and it will still be much worse at combat than any companion. But the ability would be worth taking because some of the tier 3 inspirations improve survivability and utility of the pet (robust, swift, energized) where the tier 2s really don't. Sure, nimble is fun but how many disengagement attacks can a pet take?

The point of buffing SC ranger is to make it attractive vs. multiclassing for a given role (striker, offtank, ranged dps, etc.), right?

If you want I can explain why and how any given role is better suited by a multiclassed ranger than SC.

The SC pet is too dependent on resources from other classes to fulfill its role. You have basically said as much. You wouldn't need to spam moonwell and nature's balm on a seer, and the seer has many other regenerating abilities far better than L8+ ranger abilities.

And I don't know what difficulty or circumstance you were playing with the druid, but a single class ranger's pet cannot both engage in combat and survive a large number of encounters on high difficulties without dedicated healing from other characters, and generally the pet is not worth expending those resources, so you often end up keeping the pet out of combat, making it more of a burden than a class feature.

Who cares what the class resource is called? They're just themed words picked after switching all class resources to per-encounter from POE1. But if you really think the name "bond" is that significant, maybe "bonded fury" should apply to both ranger and pet? (Actually that would be OP but maybe you see my point of attaching too much emphasis on names)

The problem with attaching resource regen to the pet is the pet sucks in combat and dies faster than everything else. If the pet's combat abilities or survival are significantly improved then it's fine. But whatever method is chosen to proc bond regen, it has to actually work...like distraction training requires enemies to attack the pet and miss, so the pet needs to tank (and be missed, despite its bad deflection) for bond regen. By comparison fighter's discipline regen works well because fighters have the tools to take damage and survive. Wall of flashing steel works well because rogue can crit.

Having specific ability on-crit resource return is also a good idea, particularly for twinned arrows and whirling blades. Even at 1 bond twinned arrows isn't worth using in tough encounters that require many thousands of damage dealt. It was a modal in POE1 and wasn't particularly broken.

Given heart seeker is permanent I suppose it makes sense to switch it to per encounter.

The thing I keep hammering and that is more important than any other consideration is changing one of the abilities to give the pet robust (hardy companion or bonded fury) over 15s per bond, or a similar (or better) level of healing over that duration.

That change by itself makes SC Ranger much more viable on high difficulties because so many buffs and abilities depend on pet survival.

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Bonded Fury costs an appropriate amount of bond for its duration. It just needs to be *stronger*. Changing it to 1 bond and doing nothing else...I'm still skipping it. Seriously, you could give the pet ALL tier 3 inspirations and it will still be much worse at combat than any companion. But the ability would be worth taking because some of the tier 3 inspirations improve survivability and utility of the pet (robust, swift, energized) where the tier 2s really don't. Sure, nimble is fun but how many disengagement attacks can a pet take?

Some at least. And Nimble enables running on the side up to your target. No one will engage you then. 

I think at 1 Bond without other change, Bonded Fury would be strong, if anything for the massive increase of secondary defenses. But won't fix ranger as a whole... which might be your underlying point.

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

The point of buffing SC ranger is to make it attractive vs. multiclassing for a given role (striker, offtank, ranged dps, etc.), right?

Good definition

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

If you want I can explain why and how any given role is better suited by a multiclassed ranger than SC.

You're too much focus on high level role. There are much more details below this level.

Applying long duration Enfeebled is a role on its own. Debuff/DPS if you want. No one else can do that at least.

Not sure tons of MC can do the infinite Single Target CC of a built-for-crit SC Stunning Shot ranger. But you were implying it.

For AoE damages (its own category of damages), Whirling Strikes will top most things MC can bring. At least for burst because it is ressource consuming. 

 

That said, at some point you convinced me that SC Ranger only have a marginally better role than the ranger half of a MC ranger, which was your point I guess.

I remember thinking the same when people pointed "errr... SC Chanter can summon 4 Weapons instead of 3, wow" 

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

The SC pet is too dependent on resources from other classes to fulfill its role. You have basically said as much. You wouldn't need to spam moonwell and nature's balm on a seer, and the seer has many other regenerating abilities far better than L8+ ranger abilities.

Depending on other classes is not an issue in a party. When it starts to matter is when it requires dedicated ressources from other member. In a party, you will spam AoE Heal anyways. Requiring Pain Block from time to time isn't necessarily dedication either, since another character could have required it if your pet didn't take the damages anyway. But see more below.

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

And I don't know what difficulty or circumstance you were playing with the druid, but a single class ranger's pet cannot both engage in combat and survive a large number of encounters on high difficulties without dedicated healing from other characters, and generally the pet is not worth expending those resources, so you often end up keeping the pet out of combat, making it more of a burden than a class feature.

I disagree. Pet isn't more significantly more frail than other non dedicated tank characters. And I play in PotD with a party, which is BPM target.  

Please note however that all these arguments absolutely doesn't change the conclusion : since rangers have been given dedicated pet heal, this absolutely needs to be significantly better that what another class can do for any character, not just for the pet. Heal Companion isn't strong enough to be worth picking most of the time, "the cipher will do better with Pain Block" indeed, as you point.

So I will address it indeed. This is slightly independant from SC issue, even if it does help a bit since Heal over Time scale well with PL. 

Not with Robust though, I think since the biggest issue with Robust is that it doesn't stack with other Robust. 

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Who cares what the class resource is called? They're just themed words picked after switching all class resources to per-encounter from POE1. But if you really think the name "bond" is that significant, maybe "bonded fury" should apply to both ranger and pet? (Actually that would be OP but maybe you see my point of attaching too much emphasis on names)

The real issue is indeed not the name but similarity with Rogue. I don't want to create a Rogue carbon copy.

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

The problem with attaching resource regen to the pet is the pet sucks in combat and dies faster than everything else.

Still not my experience. This is only true in Solo I guess, where the pet is expected to do the tanking unless going melee ranger I guess.

That said, buffing Heal Companion will help.

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

If the pet's combat abilities or survival are significantly improved then it's fine. But whatever method is chosen to proc bond regen, it has to actually work...like distraction training requires enemies to attack the pet and miss, so the pet needs to tank (and be missed, despite its bad deflection) for bond regen. By comparison fighter's discipline regen works well because fighters have the tools to take damage and survive. Wall of flashing steel works well because rogue can crit.

That is a valid point. At some point Distraction Training worked on any attacks. Which was good because Bonded Fury was excellent at buffing secondary defenses. But people complained your own AoE backfired when pet was Hit.

It also works on Grazes because people complained of the relatively low deflection of pets. Most foes don't have 50 Acc above pet Def.

I don't want people to be forced into Distraction Training though (one should not feel commited to a particular Tier 9 choice), and it should work okay with a bit of Heal Companion buff. But the conclusion is that Ranger requires another option for getting Bond. Distraction Training would be a complementary way.

 

But yeah, a pet-based Bond regen shall not be based on pet Crit, for sure !

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Having specific ability on-crit resource return is also a good idea, particularly for twinned arrows and whirling blades. Even at 1 bond twinned arrows isn't worth using in tough encounters that require many thousands of damage dealt. It was a modal in POE1 and wasn't particularly broken.

In POE1, it was sort of "broken". Among the top 5 non-caster most broken abilities. I could have name it second most broken non spell ability after Dragon Trashed honestly. Granted that martial classes worked with having a couple of quite OP abilities for each of them, which was not degenerated because of absence of Multiclassing. Basically it was "balance born from unbalance", especially when compared to the brokeness of casters.

I don't want to copy Gambit and people here pointed Twinned arrow to be fine. Some even said it at 2 Bonds but that worked only during burst wit Frost Seeker, which I believe to be too narrow.

Also basing it on Crit needs the obscure design you can see with Wall of Flashing Steel. Or it would be too good with multi hits weapons.

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Given heart seeker is permanent I suppose it makes sense to switch it to per encounter.

The thing I keep hammering and that is more important than any other consideration is changing one of the abilities to give the pet robust (hardy companion or bonded fury) over 15s per bond, or a similar (or better) level of healing over that duration.

That change by itself makes SC Ranger much more viable on high difficulties because so many buffs and abilities depend on pet survival.

This still is only true for solo IMHO. Which doesn't change that Heal Companion needs a buff. Probably to 12s for heal and Hardy after upgrade (to align durations). That is 100 base heal scaling with INT (minus initial tick), MIG, and double PL scaling. Pain Block is twice slower healing and heal base 70. So this should be enough. 

This is the order of magnitude of the buff, but I'm still wondering about Bonded Fury / Hardy Companion redundancy.

Still a MC Seer could go Heal Companion + Pain Block... So that won't fix SC Ranger... But make it more viable for Solo, at least. And open possibilities to tie Bond regen to the pet. Also SC Ranger can go Heal Companion + Shadowed Hunter.

 

As you can see, I'm not decided yet. 

[Elric Galad]

What would you think about adding to current Bonded Fury an effect "1 Bond per pet Hit / Crit" for its duration. Note it synergizes with Aware inspiration for Grazes.

Would it be enough to fuel whatever needs to be fueled ?

Would it be overpowered (could be reduced to a x%) ? If yes, what could be the value.

Would it require some adjustment to Bonded Fury ? (cost, recovery, etc...)

The idea is that it would lead to a significantly different gameplay from other classes (pet farm bond while Ranger spend bonds for damages, less relying on passive than other martials).

 

Apart this buff, I would consider only some buff to Vengeful Grief and to heal / Hardy Companion (the later isn't SC).

Edited February 15, 2023 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

I do think proper offensive use of the pet should be rewarded (i.e. attacking vulnerable targets instead of just using it as a meat shield), so maybe make it only give bond on crit? Say, 50% chance. I also think it would be cool to have Bonded Fury give just Energized instead of all 6 tier 2 inspirations, as many of these inspirations are easily provided by other party members or are already present on the ranger skill tree. That way the pet is a real threat to low deflection enemies.

[Bosmer]

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I do think proper offensive use of the pet should be rewarded (i.e. attacking vulnerable targets instead of just using it as a meat shield), so maybe make it only give bond on crit? Say, 50% chance. I also think it would be cool to have Bonded Fury give just Energized instead of all 6 tier 2 inspirations, as many of these inspirations are easily provided by other party members or are already present on the ranger skill tree. That way the pet is a real threat to low deflection enemies.

I really like the idea that bond generation is somehow related to pet+ranger interaction, and on pet-crit would work in this direction. However, would you be able to generate enough bond on the tougher fights (where you really need the extra bond)? Or would you than rely on gimmicky friendly-summon (from chanter?) critting to create bond with the pet?

EDIT: and cat animal companion would probably be the best choice for attacking faster.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Bosmer

[thelee]

in terms of heal companion buff, have you considered giving it an instant cast and no recovery? there's still an unpleasant action economy to heal companion, and Play Dead has instant cast. at least then "Heal Companion" has value in that it doesn't cost you action economy to use to use more pre-emptively. I haven't played aroudn with it in BPM mode, but when heal companion is available, enemies tend to be able to take a pet from healthy to dead pretty quickly, so you want to use it pre-emptively, but also not necessarily waste cast-time (even down to .5s BPM) and recovery time just to do that in case there's no real danger coming up on the pet.

 

adding resource recovery to bonded fury seems too good, imo. it would basically be an auto-pick in any build. i'm circling back to an earlier point - if bonded fury had a narrower set of tier 3 abilities, that would be extremely good for a pet-support. Swift in particular (whatever other T3 is an exercise to the reader). Maia has the best pet in the game because her bird can face tank megabosses because it's immune to engagement, a single-class ranger focusing on their pet should get a similar payoff and not need to rely on an exhortation.

Edited February 15, 2023 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

49 minutes ago, thelee said:

in terms of heal companion buff, have you considered giving it an instant cast and no recovery? there's still an unpleasant action economy to heal companion, and Play Dead has instant cast. at least then "Heal Companion" has value in that it doesn't cost you action economy to use to use more pre-emptively. I haven't played aroudn with it in BPM mode, but when heal companion is available, enemies tend to be able to take a pet from healthy to dead pretty quickly, so you want to use it pre-emptively, but also not necessarily waste cast-time (even down to .5s BPM) and recovery time just to do that in case there's no real danger coming up on the pet.

It's an option indeed. Would be close to Savage Defiance in term of Gameplay except... For the pet. Play Dead uses pet action economy instead. Really good ability, but sometimes prevent pet from acting as a meat shield. It Worth noticing that it is a full heal for 2 bonds. 

49 minutes ago, thelee said:

adding resource recovery to bonded fury seems too good, imo. it would basically be an auto-pick in any build. i'm circling back to an earlier point - if bonded fury had a narrower set of tier 3 abilities, that would be extremely good for a pet-support.

Auto picks arent that bad. There are plenty. Deathblows, monk's twins, one tier 9 shout upgrade, etc...

On tier 8 it's okay if it can fix a class. Tier 9 is more constrained so I don't love tier 8 autopick. 

49 minutes ago, thelee said:

Swift in particular (whatever other T3 is an exercise to the reader). Maia has the best pet in the game because her bird can face tank megabosses because it's immune to engagement, a single-class ranger focusing on their pet should get a similar payoff and not need to rely on an exhortation.

Then it would make Maia's pet less unique. But I see your point. Anyway, if I change Bonded Fury completely, there are indeed plenty of possibilities...

[NotDumbEnough]

Yeah, in general I think Bonded Fury should provide significantly better buffs than priests, chanters, etc. can for your team. If you have some priests and chanters a SC ranger's pet just does not feel that much stronger than a MC ranger's pet. Right now Bonded Fury merely provides "cheaper" buffs for your pet but that's not really relevant because lots of inspirations are AoE effects anyways, with the exception of Tenacious, or are already attached to lower tier abilities available to MC rangers. Giving the pet Intuitive via Shadowed Hunters was a good idea but I think giving the pet 25% hit to crit when its baseline damage output is extremely low isn't sufficient by itself, something that Bonded Fury could help in doing.

 

However I think it's also worth pointing out that SC Ranger as a whole is pretty good in BPM. Twinned Shots and Whirling Strikes are already very powerful. It's just that your pet is very underwhelming, I did a SC Sharpshooter run a while ago and basically just killed everything before my pet could get in melee most of the time (you get 2 shots + 2 bounces from Twinned Shots, if any one of them crits Veilpiercer negates your recovery and you essentially have ranged Scordeo's Edge). So perhaps a rework to Bonded Fury might have to be accompanied by a nerf elsewhere.

Edited February 15, 2023 by NotDumbEnough

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Yeah, in general I think Bonded Fury should provide significantly better buffs than priests, chanters, etc. can for your team. If you have some priests and chanters a SC ranger's pet just does not feel that much stronger than a MC ranger's pet.

The same semi-disappointment applies to inspired discipline as well. A MC Fighter/Priest basically has access to the same buff through Minor Avatar, not to mention AoE Tier 2 Inspirations.

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Right now Bonded Fury merely provides "cheaper" buffs for your pet but that's not really relevant because lots of inspirations are AoE effects anyways, with the exception of Tenacious, or are already attached to lower tier abilities available to MC rangers. Giving the pet Intuitive via Shadowed Hunters was a good idea but I think giving the pet 25% hit to crit when its baseline damage output is extremely low isn't sufficient by itself, something that Bonded Fury could help in doing.

To be honnest, the Intuitive part from Shadowed Hunters was more for the ranger themselves. 

Ah and also for Stag pet  

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

However I think it's also worth pointing out that SC Ranger as a whole is pretty good in BPM. Twinned Shots and Whirling Strikes are already very powerful. It's just that your pet is very underwhelming, I did a SC Sharpshooter run a while ago and basically just killed everything before my pet could get in melee most of the time (you get 2 shots + 2 bounces from Twinned Shots, if any one of them crits Veilpiercer negates your recovery and you essentially have ranged Scordeo's Edge). So perhaps a rework to Bonded Fury might have to be accompanied by a nerf elsewhere.

Good to hear. I also don't think that BPM SC Ranger is in a so bad position right now.

But is arguably the worst SC Martial for ressources spent and with low regen.

 

OK, I'm going to bed now.

Just one final dumb (but technically doable) idea for the day :

The pet could give Bond while it is moving (with a similar implementation as arterial strike). So you get Bond for walking the dog. 

[Bosmer]

13 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

The pet could give Bond while it is moving (with a similar implementation as arterial strike). So you get Bond for walking the dog. 

Or: give bond while the pet doesn't move (and in addition being inactive?): Gameplay-wise players would have to decide whether to actively use the bonded-fury-buffed animal companion in combat or keep it still (i.e. "bonding" with it) and generate bond. Could be an interesting decision to make.

[thelee]

3 hours ago, Bosmer said:

Or: give bond while the pet doesn't move (and in addition being inactive?): Gameplay-wise players would have to decide whether to actively use the bonded-fury-buffed animal companion in combat or keep it still (i.e. "bonding" with it) and generate bond. Could be an interesting decision to make.

ime it's far more likely for the pet to be stationary for extended stretches of time, so it'd be mostly "free" resource gen.

i like the idea of a mobility reward, because the ranger has some mobility pay-off (shot on the run mostly) and it encourages an atypical playstyle. i'm not sure how that would actually play out in terms of implementation though

[Elric Galad]

32 minutes ago, thelee said:

i like the idea of a mobility reward, because the ranger has some mobility pay-off (shot on the run mostly) and it encourages an atypical playstyle. i'm not sure how that would actually play out in terms of implementation though

I all started as a joke, though.

But for the implementation, it would be based on Arterial Strike implementation, DoT while moving. So it is likely to work by checking if moving with short periods of time.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Bosmer]

17 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I all started as a joke, though.

But for the implementation, it would be based on Arterial Strike implementation, DoT while moving. So it is likely to work by checking if moving with short periods of time.

So would you implement it as: 1 Bond after x seconds of moving or x% chance for 1 Bond while moving? I think the problem here is that the best playstyle would be to send the pet to the other side of the map and just keep it running. The duration of the effect (independantly from bonded fury) would need to be prolonged by some form of combat-related activity: e.g. on pet-crit or being crit etc..

 

 

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Bosmer said:

So would you implement it as: 1 Bond after x seconds of moving or x% chance for 1 Bond while moving?

The second.

Altough a system of counters might make the first doable. But oh boy tedious.

2 hours ago, Bosmer said:

I think the problem here is that the best playstyle would be to send the pet to the other side of the map and just keep it running.

I think there is a reason why I never seriously considered it.

2 hours ago, Bosmer said:

The duration of the effect (independantly from bonded fury) would need to be prolonged by some form of combat-related activity: e.g. on pet-crit or being crit etc..

Would feel complicated compared to just adding Bond on Hit.

Currenly, I'm thinking about setting Bonded Fury to 1 Bond and 4s recovery (as original, so it's not just a pseudo passive, you need to take action economy to activate ; if not Bonded Fury won't require a "choice" from player ; it's important that an active ability is a choice) and 30% Bond on Hit/Crit (Bonded Fury comes with built-in Aware, so it shouldn't be too hard to get Hits). 

For the general power level adjustement of the pet itself, I could add x% action speed on top of Nimble to Bnded Fury (which leads to more Bond). It could be 25%.

Cat's Advantage is mitigated by its mediocre PER, Antelope interaction with Distracted Training, Bear synergy with Hardy, and Stag Bond from AoE Hits, wolf benefitting the most from attack speed and Boar... from stacking various sources of heal I guess ?

 

Bond generation this way could stack with Distracting Training, although Distracting Training should contribute less.

Bonded Fury would basically be a "pseudo-mandatory" pick (but not too constraining since it is a Tier 8). Distracting Training would be more "optional icing".

 

Other than that :

Vengeful Gried will add a %Action speed (passive, stacking) on top of Nimble. Thinking about 25%. Not compensating for pet's fall, but would start feeling decent backup.

Heal Companion would be buffed (duration to 12s), for a reliable heal. Not sure about Hardy which would feel redundant with Bonded Fury. I could go for a flat damage reduction on top of Hardy. 25% would be enough. Removing a CON Inspiration would be infortunate for a heal, since heal+CON inspiration saves you from CON Afflictions. Instant heal (at least without action from Ranger) should remain the unique property of Play Dead.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:53 AM, Elric Galad said:

The second.

Altough a system of counters might make the first doable. But oh boy tedious.

I think there is a reason why I never seriously considered it.

Would feel complicated compared to just adding Bond on Hit.

Currenly, I'm thinking about setting Bonded Fury to 1 Bond and 4s recovery (as original, so it's not just a pseudo passive, you need to take action economy to activate ; if not Bonded Fury won't require a "choice" from player ; it's important that an active ability is a choice) and 30% Bond on Hit/Crit (Bonded Fury comes with built-in Aware, so it shouldn't be too hard to get Hits). 

For the general power level adjustement of the pet itself, I could add x% action speed on top of Nimble to Bnded Fury (which leads to more Bond). It could be 25%.

Cat's Advantage is mitigated by its mediocre PER, Antelope interaction with Distracted Training, Bear synergy with Hardy, and Stag Bond from AoE Hits, wolf benefitting the most from attack speed and Boar... from stacking various sources of heal I guess ?

 

Bond generation this way could stack with Distracting Training, although Distracting Training should contribute less.

Bonded Fury would basically be a "pseudo-mandatory" pick (but not too constraining since it is a Tier 8). Distracting Training would be more "optional icing".

 

Other than that :

Vengeful Gried will add a %Action speed (passive, stacking) on top of Nimble. Thinking about 25%. Not compensating for pet's fall, but would start feeling decent backup.

Heal Companion would be buffed (duration to 12s), for a reliable heal. Not sure about Hardy which would feel redundant with Bonded Fury. I could go for a flat damage reduction on top of Hardy. 25% would be enough. Removing a CON Inspiration would be infortunate for a heal, since heal+CON inspiration saves you from CON Afflictions. Instant heal (at least without action from Ranger) should remain the unique property of Play Dead.

Sorry for delayed response. Looks like I missed a lot of discussion, can't address everything said but have a few comments.

First I like the idea of buffing heal companion to more like savage defiance, though since this is a low level pick it does nothing to address making SC rangers preferable, which is why I think you need a better healing buff on Bonded Fury. Like could do hardy companion => robust companion and add more healing on bonded fury, alternatively hardy companion gives heal 10+health per 3s for 15s, hardy, and bonded fury gives robust for stacking.

Have you tried changing Bonded Fury to give all tier 3 inspirations? Then playtested it a bit? I think that would be enough to make SC ranger competitive. And it sounds overpowered because "all tier 3" but it's on the pet so it really isn't. It will still be worse at combat than any properly built character including companions by a ward margin, and keeping it up requires most of your bond. I'm honestly not that familiar with most of the SC bond regeneration, though I know distraction training doesn't really work as is. And I'm pretty sure adding pet on-crit resource regen will not work in the encounters you need it to work without intuitive. So here is a proposal for bonded fury

2 bond, gives all tier 3 inspirations for 30 seconds, 50% chance return bond on pet crit

Keep it .5s cast, 0 recovery. If you add recovery you are really going in the wrong direction with SC ranger. Besides, it is a passive buff, not like an attack ability, doesn't make sense to have a recovery.

The 50% chance is just an educated guess, would have to playtest it. But the on-crit bond return is really only going to work with intuitive except in easy encounters. Intuitive + Energized will give the pet some combat utility so it can do some interrupts, swift some mobility, and robust some tankiness. It still won't do a lot of damage but it will be useful at least. Alternatively the on-hit/crit seems all right. I think making the pet better at combat is what can make SC ranger something you'd actually want to pick, as the pet is really the identifying hallmark for the ranger.  

Or if you don't like robust since it isn't stackable, 2 bond, gives intuitive, energized, swift, brilliant, courageous, hardy, +10 (or more) health per 3s for 30s, 50% chance return bond on pet crit 

I don't think having Bonded Fury pseudo-mandatory is that big a deal. You basically get four L8 picks (2 at 16, 1 at 17, 1 at 18) and there are five L8 choices. And I'd think most builds probably wouldn't pick both twinned shots and whirling strikes. Or if they wanted to, less pet-focused builds could skip Vengeful Grief (or Great Souls). 

I like the Vengeful Grief 25% action speed buff, though could just make it an enhanced fury on pet death which is similar effect and matches the description of the ability better (fury with tenacious / nimble or whatever)

Having some kind of healing available to the ranger himself would also be cool, not strictly necessary but could make melee rangers better. Like add to bonded fury a "ranger receives 15% of pet damage dealt as healing".

--------------------

I know you think I'm basing all these suggestions on solo play but I'm not. Solo is what initially made me notice how bad SC ranger is compared to MC, but the same holds in parties, and I've played with parties quite a lot, though recently more focused on solo. The SC shortcomings just aren't as noticeable in parties because you have other characters to pick up the slack. But the fact a build can do okay in parties doesn't mean anything by itself. I could make the worst build possible and it would still do okay in well-built parties because if this is a game where some classes can solo (and it is), then you really only need one truly well-built party member and the rest can just stand there getting murdered. I know that's an extreme comparison but you probably get my point.

For role comparison,

I did mention a ranged crit build centered on stunning shots for CC is the only real reason to consider a SC ranger.

Though even a ranged CC build has good (better imo) alternatives like ranger / monk (instruments of pain, stunning surge) or ranger / chanter, ranger / cipher, both of which don't have this specific method of single target CC but have arguably better ones available like mental binding, thunder rolled like waves on black seas etc., in addition to other resources like better healing, summons, etc.

For ranged DPS, ranger/cipher is better, ranger/chanter (sure-handed ila + energized + summons), probably also ranger / rogue and ranger / fighter

For melee striker, ranger/cipher is better, ranger/barbarian is better, ranger/fighter, ranger/wizard, ranger/monk, probably ranger/priest and ranger/rogue (haven't played rogues that much outside of parties)

For offtank, ranger/cipher, ranger/fighter, ranger/barbarian, ranger/paladin, ranger/monk, ranger/wizard, ranger/priest all better

For tank, no combinations are ideal but same listed above are better

Parties or solo, there is presently very little reason to pick a SC ranger over something else. And I didn't even mention the combinations without ranger, like SC monk, monk/fighter, monk/barbarian which are way better at striker, offtank, and tank roles, or devoted/troubadour which is better at ranged dps. (And I may be arguably off on some specific comparison because I haven't played every single one of these, not the point, the point being there is virtually always a better choice) 

--------------

And I know you like Heart Seeker, and *maybe* in a party that is a good enough reason to have a SC ranger, at least in encounters where enemies heal a lot, but generally I think you are better suited by something else.

My perspective is this: anything that requires 4 bond is just going to be really expensive in the hard encounters (megabosses, DLC bosses) where you will run out of resources very quickly if you use the active abilities, hence active abilities becomes less important than things like stacking accuracy to hit with normal attacks or stacking deflection and healing to tank or CCing the enemy. Potions of enlightenment address resource loss somewhat, so that you can still use *some* abilities that require limited resources, but I've found you can sustain at most one 12s/bond duration ability (with max INT and INT inspiration). You can sustain multiple abilites in some cases if the durations are longer and/or there is resource return or ability to extend the ability (like blood storm on crit). Generally it is much better to use your resources on long duration passive abilities you can sustain (like hardy companion / bonded fury / shadowed hunters, or swift flurry with monk, or blood storm + stalwart defiance for barb) than using on twinned arrows or whirling strikers or whatever.

This probably isn't true in easy encounters, but it is the hardest encounters that function as gates for builds and therefore it is important to make sure a build has a chance of surviving the toughest encounters, moreso than how it performs fighting mooks.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Shai Hulud
correction