Coronavirus: Continuing Vigilance

[Malcador]

27 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

12 km = 7.4 miles!!! I too have been taking a stroll every day weather permitting, but Im only averaging 2.2 miles per walk.

I wish I could do that, sidewalks here are chock full of yuppie **** so I have to do boring laps around my immediate block

[Elerond]

It starts to seem that hydroxychloroquine only increases Covid-19's death toll

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

Summary
Background
Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, often in combination with a second-generation macrolide, are being widely used for treatment of COVID-19, despite no conclusive evidence of their benefit. Although generally safe when used for approved indications such as autoimmune disease or malaria, the safety and benefit of these treatment regimens are poorly evaluated in COVID-19.
Methods
We did a multinational registry analysis of the use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19. The registry comprised data from 671 hospitals in six continents. We included patients hospitalised between Dec 20, 2019, and April 14, 2020, with a positive laboratory finding for SARS-CoV-2. Patients who received one of the treatments of interest within 48 h of diagnosis were included in one of four treatment groups (chloroquine alone, chloroquine with a macrolide, hydroxychloroquine alone, or hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide), and patients who received none of these treatments formed the control group. Patients for whom one of the treatments of interest was initiated more than 48 h after diagnosis or while they were on mechanical ventilation, as well as patients who received remdesivir, were excluded. The main outcomes of interest were in-hospital mortality and the occurrence of de-novo ventricular arrhythmias (non-sustained or sustained ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation).
Findings
96 032 patients (mean age 53·8 years, 46·3% women) with COVID-19 were hospitalised during the study period and met the inclusion criteria. Of these, 14 888 patients were in the treatment groups (1868 received chloroquine, 3783 received chloroquine with a macrolide, 3016 received hydroxychloroquine, and 6221 received hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide) and 81 144 patients were in the control group. 10 698 (11·1%) patients died in hospital. After controlling for multiple confounding factors (age, sex, race or ethnicity, body-mass index, underlying cardiovascular disease and its risk factors, diabetes, underlying lung disease, smoking, immunosuppressed condition, and baseline disease severity), when compared with mortality in the control group (9·3%), hydroxychloroquine (18·0%; hazard ratio 1·335, 95% CI 1·223–1·457), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (23·8%; 1·447, 1·368–1·531), chloroquine (16·4%; 1·365, 1·218–1·531), and chloroquine with a macrolide (22·2%; 1·368, 1·273–1·469) were each independently associated with an increased risk of in-hospital mortality. Compared with the control group (0·3%), hydroxychloroquine (6·1%; 2·369, 1·935–2·900), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (8·1%; 5·106, 4·106–5·983), chloroquine (4·3%; 3·561, 2·760–4·596), and chloroquine with a macrolide (6·5%; 4·011, 3·344–4·812) were independently associated with an increased risk of de-novo ventricular arrhythmia during hospitalisation.
Interpretation
We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19.
Funding
William Harvey Distinguished Chair in Advanced Cardiovascular Medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital.

[rjshae]

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

12 km = 7.4 miles!!! I too have been taking a stroll every day weather permitting, but Im only averaging 2.2 miles per walk.

Yes it is far, my normal weekly  walk is basically the same distance as you do about 2.1 miles

But this long walk takes you around some local mountains in Cpt and down to the beach ....its beautiful and very scenic 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by BruceVC

[MedicineDan]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm running about 25 miles a week and everything hurts. But it is still easier than trying to homeschool my kids.

Even as we speak, the little lady is teaching her class from home.

I saw some posts earlier and intended to reply if I  had a slow night at work.  Nope.  I had two patients med out to higher acuity facilities.  Insane!  ...And it's not the nurses choice.  I don't want to describe the situations because I try to be extra careful about patient information, even though I'm anonymous.  I guess I have at least one person here who knows where I work, but I trust them implicitly and I doubt they frequent this part of the sandbox anyway.  Still, have to respect privacy. ...But if I could tell!

Anyhow, I appreciate the pushback.  Always interesting to read people's views.  Even Gromnir's, and he's about the only person who manages to get under my skin from time to time.  The only thing I want to mention is the hamster mask study from... Hong Kong?  I can't remember, but it entailed putting fabric between cages and blowing a fan through it.  I've never denied that masks help stop droplet transmission.  I think a one time use mask donned for single patient encounters is manifestly wise and evidence based practice.  My point is that the way that people wear the masks makes them considerably less useful than suggested.  When the cages sprout hands and start readjusting their masks, I'll buy into the theory.  I don't have a lot of 10 year bets, but I'm betting the usefulness of masks will be proved considerably less effective over time when we identify all of the variables in actual practical use of a mask over extended periods of time.  I know medical professionals, nurses, therapists, and doctors, who wash their outside masks like once a week and it's *impossible* not to need to adjust a mask multiple times over that period.  As it is, the studies keep coming and I think we need time to sift through them and see which ones are best.  After all, another of my ten year bets was that this preoccupation with surfaces was silly, and time is bearing that out already, although 10 years is 10 years.  Gotta play by the rules I set when I made my bets.

Hopefully I have the time to read through all the posts I've missed, but I couldn't even catch up on the stuff up to now.  So, if you have a really clever mean thing to say, wait until the weekend!

[Zoraptor]

The main pro of masks can also be achieved in humans by simply not going out when you're sick. The benefit of masks (those without a proper filter at least) comes from deceleration/ capture of droplets, which is only important if they are high velocity in the first place. Don't go out when coughing or sneezing and problem solved, the advised 6' to 2m spacing is enough to prevent most airborne transmission.

The other con of masks is that it makes people feel safe when they're not. Most of the people wearing them will believe that they themselves are being protected by the mask when they aren't, but that feeling of being safer means other more effective measures get ignored.

[Raithe]

 

[Volourn]

So, Doug Ford has become a Nazi and is trying to murder people. He says businesses are allowed to  refuse service if you don't wear a mask meaning families could starve  because of this by him.    He pulled a  PM Blackface move.  This after months telling us that 'masks weren't needed'. LMAO This after months of people going to the store without masks. LMAO  

 

The opne thing all politicians have in common - they love power, control, and slavery. And, love starving people through shortsightedness. I'm going to the grocery store tomorrow and if they 'refuse me service' it means I starve. BRILLIANT. I don't have anything worthy of being used as a face mask. I'm not a hospital and I ain't going to multiple locations so I can be near a bunch of people - since the point of social distancing is to avoid people. LMAO BRILLIANT.

[Hurlshort]

You don't own a piece of cloth you can wear over your mouth and nose?

The idea that some minimim wage grocer needs to be exposed to you because of freedum is pretty silly. Cover your mouth and stop being a crybaby. The people at these businesses have rights too.

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Volourn said:

So, Doug Ford has become a Nazi and is trying to murder people. He says businesses are allowed to  refuse service if you don't wear a mask meaning families could starve  because of this by him.    He pulled a  PM Blackface move.  This after months telling us that 'masks weren't needed'. LMAO This after months of people going to the store without masks. LMAO  

 

The opne thing all politicians have in common - they love power, control, and slavery. And, love starving people through shortsightedness. I'm going to the grocery store tomorrow and if they 'refuse me service' it means I starve. BRILLIANT. I don't have anything worthy of being used as a face mask. I'm not a hospital and I ain't going to multiple locations so I can be near a bunch of people - since the point of social distancing is to avoid people. LMAO BRILLIANT.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

You don't own a piece of cloth you can wear over your mouth and nose?

The idea that some minimim wage grocer needs to be exposed to you because of freedum is pretty silly. Cover your mouth and stop being a crybaby. The people at these businesses have rights too.

Hurlshot is right Volo, its unacceptable and disgraceful that you claim you dont have any means to make a face mask. If you have money to play PC games then you definitely can wear some sort of mask....lets not be intentionally difficult with something as easy as wearing a mask. This is a virus, its real and people get sick and die from it ...you need to play your part in ensuring a healthier world

[LadyCrimson]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

You don't own a piece of cloth you can wear over your mouth and nose?

The idea that some minimim wage grocer needs to be exposed to you because of freedum is pretty silly. Cover your mouth and stop being a crybaby. The people at these businesses have rights too.

Yeah, really. I mean I dislike having to wear one myself, a lot (especially with glasses, masks have to fit snugly at the top or gaps at the top will fog glasses when I breathe).  But just for going to the grocery store you could cut up the back of an old t-shirt, double or triple fold it and tie it around your head.

I bought a couple packs of black over-ear cloth masks. They sure won't protect ME from much more than dust I suppose but they're washable/re-usable, comply with "wear a mask" and wearing them for 20 minutes while I shop is nothing to cry over.  

Edited May 23, 2020 by LadyCrimson

[BruceVC]

So we did our long 7  mile walk this morning, it was great and well worth it but I learnt some lessons and things to avoid

Firstly we weren't able to finish it due to certain delays and due to our 9 am curfew we had to take a taxi home the last 20 minutes or so. Secondly there were just far too many people on the beachfront roads ...it wasnt pleasant as you spend more time avoiding people than appreciating the actual walk. So we will avoid busy routes in future 

My partner took the pictures below, its a nice summary of this hike which starts off in the suburbs, takes you around a local mountain and you end up at the beach in a coastal town called Camps Bay and then you head back to town where I stay 

 

 

[Raithe]

5 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

You don't own a piece of cloth you can wear over your mouth and nose?

The idea that some minimim wage grocer needs to be exposed to you because of freedum is pretty silly. Cover your mouth and stop being a crybaby. The people at these businesses have rights too.

I think it's that interesting twist of psychology that it seems the same people that are perfectly happy sending their kids to school with bullet-resistant backpacks and having to go through metal-detectors at the school entrance with a "This is the price of Freeduhm!", are causing such a fuss about wearing  masks because it's "Tyranny!"...

 

Also, for those talking making simple masks..

Simple instructions on how to make your own face mask

Edited May 23, 2020 by Raithe

[ComradeYellow]

[Guard Dog]

Wearing a mask because the goddamned government told you to... or else... is a whole different story than if you were required to do so to enter Guard Dog's Farmers Market, Liquor Store, and Pet Sitting Service. If you tell the government no the police will beat the absolute f--k out of you before charging you with assaulting their fists with your face and not wearing a mask. At the GDFMLSPSS you can wear the mask or bugger off and take your business elsewhere. The former is tyranny, the latter is a man setting the rules in a business he OWNS.  There is a big difference. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Hurlshort]

So Bruce had to share a taxi, which exposes the driver to him and him to previous passengers, in order to avoid violating a curfew which is supposed to enforce social distancing? 

I think everyone would be better off finishing the walk. 

[Volourn]

"You don't own a piece of cloth you can wear over your mouth and nose?"

 

Not worthy of being a face masks. Face masks should be perfectly sanitized.

 

 

"The idea that some minimim wage grocer needs to be exposed to you because of freedum is pretty silly. Cover your mouth and stop being a crybaby. The people at these businesses have rights too."

That's fantastic. And, they have the right not to wear facemasks since not one worker at both of the stores I went to wore facemasks. Nor was it a requirement. So, once again,  a whiny antiu freedom Nazi whines about other people's 'rights' he knows nothing about.

 

Thankfully, I live in a small city who doesn't  bow down to the almighty flip flopping gov't.

 

I have no problem with face masks. I have a problem with Nazi governments and their Nazi supporters.

 

Freedom before Life. PERIOD.

 

Since you clearly don't care about me despite claiming you do, I have bad news for you. I got my food so I won't starve to death like you and your buddy Ford wanted me to take that would be murderer.

 

"9 am curfew"

9 AM CURFEW.

NINE AM CURFEW.

9. AM. CURFEW.

NINE. AM. CURFEW.

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA/

 

 

As for the judgemental torlling Nazis, I've been out of the house  max of 6 times since this started. How 'bout you? Have you been actually practicing social distancing or just social judging? 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Volourn

[LadyCrimson]

^ the drama.

As for being out of the house - the past 5-8 years I almost never leave the house regardless. Doorstep delivery rules in my area. Saw my siblings a few times when my mom died. Few friends I had, one died a ways back, one moved out of my state, one I still see rarely.  I occasionally wave at the neighbors or say hello through the fence.  Social distancing to me is simply my normal life. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by LadyCrimson

[213374U]

Face masks are fantastic. Wearing them in public helps protect from such dangers as mass surveillance and are also helpful against hay fever.

[Bartimaeus]

Maybe wearing masks will become a fashion thing a la some asian countries.

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

So Bruce had to share a taxi, which exposes the driver to him and him to previous passengers, in order to avoid violating a curfew which is supposed to enforce social distancing? 

I think everyone would be better off finishing the walk. 

Its true, we were all wearing masks but that doesnt help with getting the virus but stopping spread....and I definitely was exposed in the taxi 

[Malcador]

23 hours ago, Volourn said:

So, Doug Ford has become a Nazi and is trying to murder people. He says businesses are allowed to  refuse service if you don't wear a mask meaning families could starve  because of this by him.    He pulled a  PM Blackface move.  This after months telling us that 'masks weren't needed'. LMAO This after months of people going to the store without masks. LMAO  

 

The opne thing all politicians have in common - they love power, control, and slavery. And, love starving people through shortsightedness. I'm going to the grocery store tomorrow and if they 'refuse me service' it means I starve. BRILLIANT. I don't have anything worthy of being used as a face mask. I'm not a hospital and I ain't going to multiple locations so I can be near a bunch of people - since the point of social distancing is to avoid people. LMAO BRILLIANT.

Well, they do have some leeway to dictate who they will serve, right, like no shoes, no shirt, etc.  And you can use a cotton cloth, or paper towel.  Mind you some people have challenges using masks, heart or respiratory problems, but you can use pickup or delivery for food.

Only seen signs suggesting it here. Did get a laugh out of some dude refusing to wear one as doing so would not be manly at Whole foods of all places.

 

Masks are great, helps to cover my ugliness

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Malcador

[rjshae]

[MedicineDan]

On the one hand, I have the night off, which means I can read the posts I've missed.  On the other, I'm tanked by the time I get to this time of night, so...   :shrugging icon:

The question of the mask is a lot more involved than what we've seen here.  First, I assiduously abide by all societal rules where I live.  So, while I firmly believe the mask edicts won't be affirmed by further research, I still wear one whenever I'm out past my neighborhood.  In my neighborhood, I wear a bandana around my neck when out and fit it over my nose when in closer than 20 proximity to other people.  That's in excess of the CDC guidelines last I saw.  It's also more than any of my neighbors so far.

I saw my numbered friend's post about extrapolating a larger data set in a longer term mortality table.  Right now, I'm not sure I could do a response justice, but I will respond later in depth.  The upshot is, just because it's difficult to quantify doesn't mean we shouldn't  assess it.  I have a few long term bets.  I don't think I've made them here, but I can, if need be, attest to when I made those bets.  I don't want to put anyone on the spot here, so I'm perfectly willing to restate those bets anew.  I just want to wait until I'm a little less diminished to do so.  Probably tomorrow.  I hope.  lol

[Gorth]

11 hours ago, 213374U said:

Face masks are fantastic. Wearing them in public helps protect from such dangers as mass surveillance and are also helpful against hay fever.

I have an Asian friend who had stocked up on face masks a few months before the corona virus struck... the she's now using them for that, but she originally got them very much for the purpose you mention (and she got quality ones too that might help protect somewhat against tear gas, which she expected at the events she had planned on joining)