Let's talk Fire Spells

[heldred]

If you had to rank fire spells (defined as description includes "Fire" keyword), by effectiveness (defined as damage cast at Level 20, single or multi), what would you choose?

 

Positive thoughts:

My thoughts initially drift to the big-nukes of Great Maelstrom and Meteor Shower.  

 

Second level blasting goes to Storm of Holy Fire or Pillar of Holy Fire.

 

Persistent damage I like Hand of Wael and Ray of Fire, but not stellar for me.

 

I like the simplicity of Fireball or the utility of Combusting Wounds (paired with a DOT).  

 

 

Negative thoughts:

However, I find Delayed Fireball absolute rubbish.  That spell should hit 2x as hard for the absurd delay.

 

I never use the Rolling Flame, since slower and doesn't seem to hit hard.

 

I find the freeze/ice spells are slightly better, especially Ninagauth's spells or some Druid ice spells in general (also Great Maelstrom has Ice keyword as well).

 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[Taudis]

I use Aloth's Rolling Flame a lot early game. It does a good chunk of damage when you're still clearing out Port Maje.

 

Delayed Fireball is really good in TB, it just goes off at the start of your next turn.

 

Burst of Summer Flame paired with Sunbeam helped my low level Fury Druid win some otherwise impossible fights. BoSF has a very fast cast time, so it makes for a pretty good follow up from stealth casting. Not very useful late game but early on, tacking that much damage onto a stealth opener and probably even getting a third spell off before martials make their second attack is a game changer.

 

I use Shining Beacon as a follow up to Devotions of the Faithful all the time. The duration isn't my favorite but it's a decent size foe-only AoE that acts as a secondary accuracy boost. It's one of my favorites for PotD trash fights, where I still want an accuracy boost but don't wanna waste time on actual buffs.

 

I don't know how or if I'd rank them. Being an effective caster requires that you have a wide elemental array and ways to target different defenses.

[MaxQuest]

If you had to rank fire spells (defined as description includes "Fire" keyword), by effectiveness (defined as damage cast at Level 20, single or multi), what would you choose?

[...]

What are your thoughts?

I still haven't tried quite a few spells in practice, so if I had to rank the fire spells by damage, first would try estimate the expected total damage judging by their tooltip values.

 

So here's some assorted math. Assuming that the spell hits 5 enemies:

- Storm of Holy Fire

- vs enemies that are 1.5m apart or closer: (35.5 * 4 ticks * 5) * 5 = 3550 total base dmg

- vs enemies that are farther than 1.5m apart: (35.5 * 4 ticks) * 5 = 710 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG AND INT. (a character with 30MIG/30INT, will get a x3.2 dmg increase from stats)

- it's a rank 7 spell. and has 7 penetration

 

- Symbol of Magran

- dmg: (42 * 7.66) * 5 = 1609 total base dmg

- it's a rank 7 spell. and has 7 penetration

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG AND INT.

- it's a rank 9 spell. and has 7 penetration

 

- Magran's Might

- don't know how it works exactly. Is 8s prolonged by cleansed effects? And is 0.5m AoE usually just single-target?

 

- Cleansing Flames

- dmg = (80) * 3 = 240 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG AND INT.

- it's a rank 7 spell. and has 9 penetration

 

- Hand of Weal and Woe

- dmg = (26.5 * 10) * 5 = 1325 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG. ? Is the duration fixed 10s or affected by INT?

- it's a rank 8 spell. and has ? penetration

 

- Shining Beacon

- dmg = (16 * 4) * 5 = 320 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG AND INT.

- it's a rank 4 spell. and has 7 penetration

 

- Meteor Shower

- vs enemies that are 1.5m apart or closer: [(28 * 3.666 ticks * 5) + 6*4 * 8/4] * 5 = 2806 total base dmg

- vs enemies that are farther than 1.5m apart: (28 * 3.666 ticks + 6*4 * 8/4) * 5 + = 753 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG AND INT.

- it's a rank 9 spell. and has ? penetration

 

- Delayed Fireball

- dmg = 80 * 5 = 350 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG

- it's a rank 7 spell. and has 7 penetration

 

- Fireball

- dmg = 42.5 * 5 = 212.5 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG

- it's a rank 3 spell. and has 7 penetration

 

-------

 

TL.DR. Storm of Holy Fire and Meteor Shower are kings at incinerating enemies that stand really close together. And yes, these are deadly if used with Pull of Eora and Beckoner's skeletons surrounding your enemies.

 

Otherwise a lot of damage can be done via Symbol of Magran. And the good thing about these three - is that they are periodic, i.e. their damage is not reduced by enemy resolve like in the case with DoTs. On the other hand: positioning matters for the whole duration; and each tick goes through attack resolution.

Another thing to take into account is: the spells that get their damage increased with INT, can usually achieve higher total amounts than the spells that just deal direct damage.

 

Also, spells that are higher in rank get a slightly higher accuracy. But spells that are lower in rank, will get a higher damage and duration bonus from class PL.

Edited April 19, 2019 by MaxQuest

[heldred]

Very helpful, thank you.  

 

If I had to look at the Wizard alone, I suddenly realize being a Fire specialist (PL gear) is helpful, but not overwhelmingly great (non turn based).  Am I missing something for the Fire Wiz...  For a max-level Wiz, with the exception of Meteor Shower, most Fire spells are mediocre (I still like Combusting Wounds), slow, or don't have cool disabling effects (slow, paralyze, etc.).    

 

As I reflect upon POE 2 (which I enjoy), I find the game would have been better if the player could choose "Types of Spells," like Blasts, CC, Rays, DOTs, Cones, AOE, etc. and then you choose a specialization (Fire Wiz, Ice Wiz, Decay Wiz, etc.) or be a Generalist (with no bonus to PEN and PL). 

 

Seems odd there are gaps by spell level and type (no Level 9 Ice Spell, Not Fire CC, etc.).  For example, if I am an Ice Wiz, I am missing spells for levels 2, 3, 7, and 9 (memory, don't hold me to that, but there are genuine gaps, like 30% of your spell levels). 

 

I guess the game is more focused on Evocation, Illusion, etc., but even then I don't see are real difference between the damage spells for evocation (Fireball and Meteor Storm), transmutation (Ninangauth's), illusion (Kalakoth's), conjuration (Malignant or Death Ring), and transmutation (Noxious Burst or Concelhaut's Corrosive).  They all do damage... /shrug.

[Boeroer]

Combusting Wounds + Wall of Flame.

 

That's it.

[heldred]

Combusting + DOT is the shining star of the Fire Wiz.

 

Question:  If two different Wizards cast Wall of Flame and Combusting Wounds, would it really be 4x the fun? 

[Boeroer]

Yes. Same with Wiz + Druid if one casts wall of Flame and the other Wall of Thorns - or two ciphers casting a beam each or a Wall of Flame + Hand of Weal and Woe...

 

But Combusting Wounds doesn't work with DoTs. Only with pulsing damage like Walls, Chillfogs, Beams and so on.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Boeroer

[heldred]

Got it, helpful.  I group all damage-over-times as a DOT, but to your point, it only works with Pulsing-damage (Chillfog).  

[Jayd]

Thought it might be worth sharing this guy's videos featuring him soloing several bosses with a fire-based single class priest. Doesn't answer your questions but it demonstrates what some fire spells can do when they are built around.

[thelee]

Magran's Might

- don't know how it works exactly. Is 8s prolonged by cleansed effects? And is 0.5m AoE usually just single-target?

Magran's Might is basically a Meteor Swarm or Storm of Holy Fire that targets *just* one target.

 

The hidden advantage is that the tooltip-listed interrupt on crit only somehow applies to the initial targeting - the falling projectiles interrupt on hit, not on crit. It basically means you lock a single enemy out for the entire duration, while also stripping them of effects.

[Livegood118]

Can anyone here tell me how combusting wounds' damage calculation works?

 

Normally when you have a DOT it'll be [x] damage per [Y] seconds, total duration [z].

 

However, combusting wounds seems to just be [x] damage over duration [x] per proc with no per [Y] seconds tick component. This would seem to indicate that intellect only stretches out the length of time in which damage occurs without increasing damage (unless I'm missing something that's not clear from the tooltip?).

 

I suppose what I would like to know is if a character has 20 Might, 20 Int and no other modifiers triggers a combusting wounds hit , how much damage occurs? Also, what role, if any, does Armour rating play in mitigating the effect? 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

@armor: if the burn AR is higher than CW's PEN you will underpenetrate with the ticks.

[masterty66]

I really like Symbol of Eothas. Xoti does work with that spell. 

[Livegood118]

On 4/20/2019 at 7:09 PM, Boeroer said:

@armor: if the burn AR is higher than CW's PEN you will underpenetrate with the ticks.

It's really confusing how the damage works tbh. Maybe I'm imagining things but it seems like a lot of combusting wounds' ticks get merged in to big ticks every so often - when I do a combusting wounds/wall of fire combo I'll often see three digit figures come up. It'd be great to actually know  how much damage each proc is doing. 

On 4/19/2019 at 5:11 PM, MaxQuest said:

Meteor Shower

- vs enemies that are 1.5m apart or closer: [(28 * 3.666 ticks * 5) + 6*4 * 8/4] * 5 = 2806 total base dmg

- vs enemies that are farther than 1.5m apart: (28 * 3.666 ticks + 6*4 * 8/4) * 5 + = 753 total base dmg

- dmg is increased by PL, MIG AND INT.

- it's a rank 9 spell. and has ? penetration

Maybe I'm not reading the tooltip correctly, but I don't understand why enemies being close together would affect the damage output of meteor shower? Does each meteor that lands have a 1.5m radius? Is there a set number of meteors per cast?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

Yes.

[MaxQuest]

Livegood118 said:

Maybe I'm not reading the tooltip correctly, but I don't understand why enemies being close together would affect the damage output of meteor shower? Does each meteor that lands have a 1.5m radius? Is there a set number of meteors per cast?

Yeap, there are two AoEs. One being the large one of 5m - the area were meteors can fall. And the second: just 1.5m - the AoE of each separate meteor.

So what happens, if there are n units inside of the large AoE:

- every 3s, n meteors fall down. Each meteor targets one unit.

- each meteor hits everyone in it's small 1.5m AoE.

So, if units stand far apart from each other: there are n hits.

If they all stand 1.5m or closer to each other: there are n^2 hits. And this is when the spell gets sooo good. Although note: meteor DoT part doesn't stack.

Livegood118 said:

It's really confusing how the damage works tbh. Maybe I'm imagining things but it seems like a lot of combusting wounds' ticks get merged in to big ticks every so often - when I do a combusting wounds/wall of fire combo I'll often see three digit figures come up. It'd be great to actually know  how much damage each proc is doing.

Those red numbers have a bit randomized 'trajectory'. And if there are many of them, sometimes they might align and look like there is a higher number. I.e. it might not be 55, but 5 + 5.

As for Combusting Wounds... I've took a look now, and here we go:

Combusting Wounds (spell): has a 1.5m AoE and 20s base duration (which is unlisted...)
Combusting Wounds (dot): has 7 penetration (which is unlisted...), 6s base duration and is a stackable DoT of ApplyOverTime type.

At the moment total damage of DoTs of ApplyOverTime type actually DOES benefit from INT... just like DoTs of ApplyOnTick do; (even if their tooltips don't reflect the damage increase). Which is unexpected... because why then do we need ApplyOverTime in the first place? if we have ApplyOnTick who do same thing, but don't cause confusion to the players AND devs. But... whatever.

Also, ApplyOverTime have an additional tooltip problem of not taking into account the first tick.
For example Combusting Wounds might display that it deals 6 damage over 6s. Guess what? It will tick for: 3 dmg (on 0s), 3dmg (on 3s) and 3dmg (on 6s).
Why does this happen? Because "ratio" - a variable used to calculate what damage an ApplyOverTime effect should do per tick. And I've found it in source code:

 

 

 

 

protected void ApplyTick()
{
  this.NotifyEvent(StatusEffectEventType.OnInterval, null);
  if (this.StackedParent == null || this.GameData.StackedChildrenApplyEffects)
  {
    if (this.GameData.ApplicationType == StatusEffectApplyType.ApplyOnTick)
    {
      this.ApplyEffect(1f);
    }
    else if (this.GameData.ApplicationType == StatusEffectApplyType.ApplyOverTime)
    {
      if (this.TotalDuration > 0f)
      {
        float ratio = this.EffectiveIntervalRate / this.GameData.Duration;
        this.ApplyEffect(ratio);
      }
      else
      {
        Debug.LogError("Status effect '" + this.GameData.DebugName + "' with ApplicationType 'ApplyOverTime' must have a duration.");
      }
    }
  }
  this.IntervalTicks++;
}

 

See that?: float ratio = this.EffectiveIntervalRate / this.GameData.Duration;
For the above example of 6 damage over 6s, it would be: ratio = 3/6 = 0.5
And tickDamage = 6 dmg * 0.5 = 3
That's why it was ticking for 3 dmg instead of 2; and dealing 9 total dmg instead of the listed 6.

Since in both PoE1 and Deadfire there is the 0-tick, the formula had to be:
float ratio = this.EffectiveIntervalRate / (this.GameData.Duration + this.EffectiveIntervalRate);

---

Now look at that tooltip:

How much total damage do you think it will deal? 
Six?) Nope) it will be 15 (5 ticks for 3 damage).

Now imagine that you cast two Walls of Flame and follow up with Combusting Wounds.
That's 60 damage instances in 30s. And 60 x 15 = 900 damage from CW, assuming there is enough penetration.

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Jayd]

Can Meteor Shower be spell shaped? I noticed that Storm of Holy Fire cannot be and they are very similar spells. I guess it's a balance thing since Storm would benefit too much from a smaller radius? Do the MS projectiles actually target enemies? I'm pretty sure SoHF projectiles just come down as they see fit.

[Livegood118]

5 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

Combusting Wounds Info

Thank you so much for this - it's really helpful. 

So, in practice, is it accurate to say that the "true" damage of combusting wounds can calculated by doing the following:

(1) Take the total damage listed in the tooltip and divide it by two (finds the "per tick" damage)

(2) Calculate the total number of ticks (1 per 3 seconds) and add a tick to account for the "0 second" tick

(3) Multiple tick damage by the number of ticks.

So, hypothetically, if the combusting wounds damage tooltip indicated it was doing 10 damage over 18 seconds, in practice it would be doing 10/2 = 5 damage per tick,  over 18/3 + 1 = 7 ticks, for a total of 5 * 7 = 35 damage total per proc.

It also seems like combusting wounds seems to benefit "twice" from additional PL, as it will increase the accuracy, duration, area and penetration of the initial spell cast, as well as the damage and duration of any subsequent procs.

5 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

Yeap, there are two AoEs. One being the large one of 5m - the area were meteors can fall. And the second: just 1.5m - the AoE of each separate meteor.

So what happens, if there are n units inside of the large AoE:

- every 3s, n meteors fall down. Each meteor targets one unit.

- each meteor hits everyone in it's small 1.5m AoE.

So, if units stand far apart from each other: there are n hits.

If they all stand 1.5m or closer to each other: there are n^2 hits. And this is when the spell gets sooo good. Although note: meteor DoT part doesn't stack.

Those red numbers have a bit randomized 'trajectory'. And if there are many of them, sometimes they might align and look like there is a higher number. I.e. it might not be 55, but 5 + 5.

I'm still not quite getting this. When you say "Each meteor targets one unit", do you mean either:

- there is a finite number of meteors that will fall down within the large AoE every 3 seconds, and, assuming enough units are present within the large AoE as there are meteors, each meteor will target one of the units (If there are more units than meteors, I assume the meteors are allocated to units at random)? or

- one meteor will hit each unit within the large AOE per three seconds?

I assume it's the former rather than the latter, as the latter would seem to run contrary to my experience of using an empowered meteor shower vs. Bel-Ranga and taking off about 50% of her health. 

Either way I can see how units being clumped together would drastically increase the power of the spell. Meteor shower also seems to really benefits from power level, gaining damage, accuracy, duration, penetration, area (and maybe number of meteors per 3 secs?). 

5 hours ago, Jayd said:

Can Meteor Shower be spell shaped? I noticed that Storm of Holy Fire cannot be and they are very similar spells. I guess it's a balance thing since Storm would benefit too much from a smaller radius? Do the MS projectiles actually target enemies? I'm pretty sure SoHF projectiles just come down as they see fit.

Meteor shower definitely can't be spell-shaped - I know that much!

Edited April 27, 2019 by Livegood118

[Yosharian]

Penetration is a massive issue for these spells on POTD.  Fireball, for example, has a penetration of 7.  That's awful.  That means in most cases, you're going to under-penetrate, which massively reduces your damage.  Yeah, Fireball does decent damage, but in practical terms, it'll do almost nothing, because it'll underpenetrate.

And that's IF you can even hit targets reliably with it.
Example:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Yosharian

[dunehunter]

Yeah Fire, like Pierce, is the worst type in the game. Tho u get many gears +PL to fire abilities, I guess that's an compensate.

Based on MaxQuest's google sheet, there is 37 enemy types that are immune to Burn damage... more than the rest 3 types in total (17 immune to Freeze, 9 Shock, 8 Corrode)....

Edited April 28, 2019 by dunehunter

[Yosharian]

1 hour ago, dunehunter said:

Yeah Fire, like Pierce, is the worst type in the game. Tho u get many gears +PL to fire abilities, I guess that's an compensate.

Based on MaxQuest's google sheet, there is 37 enemy types that are immune to Burn damage... more than the rest 3 types in total (17 immune to Freeze, 9 Shock, 8 Corrode)....

I don't think it is sufficient compensation, actually.  For example, my Druid that I'm using right now has a massive +3 Power Level bonus to his Storm-keyworded spells.  You know how much penetration that adds?  0.8.  Not even +1 penetration.  So Power Level is really bad at adding penetration.

Even Meteor Shower only has a penetration of 7, for ****'s sake, and that's a level NINE spell!

Minoletta's Missile Salvo, another level 9 spell, only has penetration of 6...  yet that spell has a reputation of being completely overpowered?   I don't get it.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

You shouldn't forget that you not only get Power Level scaling from additional (item) bonuses but also from your own level progression. Fireball is a tier 3 spell with 7 PEN. At the time you can cast it 7 base PEN isn't the end of the world. The you'll add PEN with every additional PL over 3 AND the bonuses you accumulate. A PL 7 char already gets a bonus on Fireball of +4. And I think to compensate for all that burn  resistance in the game Obsidian put all those burn bonus hear into the game: +4 PL from weapons, Scorched Cloak (heal yourself with fire), Otto Starcat (+2 PL) and Ring of Focused Flame (+10 ACC - crits do help with PEN)...

If then also can add Scion of Flame and get the Tenacious Inspiration then PEN is not a big deal.

Also because you will always have backup spells to fireball. If you specialize in fire damage that will give you plenty power with those - but that doesn't mean at all that you suddenly can't cast a frost spell as backup option.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Boeroer
typo

[Livegood118]

6 hours ago, Yosharian said:

Penetration is a massive issue for these spells on POTD.  Fireball, for example, has a penetration of 7.  That's awful.  That means in most cases, you're going to under-penetrate, which massively reduces your damage.  Yeah, Fireball does decent damage, but in practical terms, it'll do almost nothing, because it'll underpenetrate.

And that's IF you can even hit targets reliably with it.
Example:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, dunehunter said:

Yeah Fire, like Pierce, is the worst type in the game. Tho u get many gears +PL to fire abilities, I guess that's an compensate.

Based on MaxQuest's google sheet, there is 37 enemy types that are immune to Burn damage... more than the rest 3 types in total (17 immune to Freeze, 9 Shock, 8 Corrode)....

TBH I'm not seeing the issue here for the wizard.

When something has immunity or a strong resistance to fire it will invariably be weak to frost and vice versa. The Wizard can dish out the most frost damage of any class in the game (perhaps playing second fiddle to a single classed chanter with eld nary) among other damage types including crush, pierce, acid and raw. The difference between a fire specced wizard (Sun and Moon, Magran's favour, Otto Scarcat) and a frost-specced Wizard (Sun and Moon, Griffins Blade) is really only an 8hour wait and a weapon switch away - the majority of other PL bonuses will be damage type neutral.

Echoing boroer, I also have had relatively few issues with Wizard penetration on POTD. By mid-level there's no reason why your wizard shouldn't be nomming crusted-swordfish most rests (wait 26 hours for ingredients to restock). Stacking PL and getting the relevant penetration talents also helps.

[Yosharian]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

You shouldn't forget that you not only get Power Level scaling from additional (item) bonuses but also from your own level progression. Fireball is a tier 3 spell with 7 PEN. At the time you can cast it 7 base PEN isn't the end of the world. The you'll add PEN with every additional PL over 3 AND the bonuses you accumulate. A PL 7 char already gets a bonus on Fireball of +4. And I think to compensate for all that burn  resistance in the game Obsidian put all those burn bonus hear into the game: +4 PL from weapons, Scorched Cloak (heal yourself with fire), Otto Starcat (+2 PL) and Ring of Focused Flame (+10 ACC - crits do help with PEN)...

If then also can add Scion of Flame and get the Tenacious Inspiration then PEN is not a big deal.

Also because you will always have backup spells to fireball. If you specialize in fire damage that will give you plenty power with those - but that doesn't mean at all that you suddenly can't cast a frost spell as backup option.

Otto grants +1 Fire Power Level, I believe.  which is about +0.25 penetration.

PL 7 is near max level for a multiclass character.

+4 PL from weapons is only during the day.  Not everyone wants to cheese the game by only fighting during the day (ugh).

Ring of FF by itself isn't going to suddenly make crits a reliable occurrence.  My single-class evoker has max Perception, and that item, and doesn't see crits that reliably when casting Fireball, mainly because many targets have very high saves.

Tenacious on a caster?  Ok, that requires multiclass, or very specific characters.  There are only three abilities in the entire game that grant that, and only one of them has any kind of decent duration.

Scion of Flame is obvious, but it doesn't magically solve penetration problems when even relatively weak critters have like 10 armor.

Not using Fire spells for every single encounter is obvious, I'm not talking about using them versus creatures that are weak to other elements.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Yosharian

[Yosharian]

2 minutes ago, Livegood118 said:

When something has immunity or a strong resistance to fire it will invariably be weak to frost and vice versa.

Ok but for AOE we better hope that there isn't a mix of weaknesses in a given group otherwise why bother using AOE at all.