Grog is secret tech!

[thelee]

I haven't seen much mention of this pet - if you're not familiar, it provides you resolve affliction immunity and engagement immunity, at the cost of being unable to engage and being utterly annihilated when reduced to 0 health (instead of knocked out).

 

Party-wide engagement immunity I suspected was really good, since Deadfire lets you run out of range of melee attacks. And sure enough, I just gave it a try with Dorudugan (the vessel megaboss). I just kept an eye on Dorudugan's attacks and ran Mirke out of range every single time, while everyone else pelted it with ranged attacks -- basically granted me infinite tanking ability. It also made the global pulling effect irrelevant because all my party members could just run away again without taking disengagement attacks.

 

I don't know if Grog would be great to generally have, but for some big fights might be the most powerful tool you have in your toolbox, if you're up for some micromanagement. Might not be as good solo since Nomad's Brigandine can be enchanted for engagement immunity anyway. But Grog can be combined with any armor.

 

(And yes, I did manage to beat Dorudugan with this strategy. Mirke only ended up getting hit by Dorudugan twice or thrice by my own failure to pause/pay attention at the right time. Also lack of engagement made it extremely easy to kite Dorudugan around the map to avoid letting it self heal from fire damage.)

Edited January 31, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

I have seen plenty mention of this pet - by me in the bug forum.
 
Because several players did file bug reports: they suddenly died on K.O. and that must be a bug, right?
 
Some of them attached savegames. An what could one find in those?
 

It's quite the fun pet. Also because it points at the D&D grognards that complained so hard about the engagement and endurance/health mechanics when PoE's beta came out.

[brasilgringo]

I still don't really understand what the pet does.  I mean, I can read "prevents engagment" - and I see you saying that means that if you run away from mobs that are meleeing you, they don't get disengagement attacks.  Is that it?  They can still run up and melee you right?  

 

What is the point of the pet -- like, what was it designed to do?  D&D players didn't like mobs getting disengagement attacks on you?

[Boeroer]

D&D grognards saw PoE in beta and hated the engagement mechanics. Infinity Games have no engagement. You can rund around like headless chicken to the music of the Benny Hill Show and won't get punished. And because that's the superior thing they hated the new thing. Had nothing to do with nostalgia or being retrogressive or so...

 

Engagement enables you to do disengament attack, yes. It also stops your movement for a short time. If you point your char to point X and he will get engaged on the way he will stop. You have to actively move him away (and eat a diseng. attack).

Edited February 1, 2019 by Boeroer

[InsaneCommander]

It's quite the fun pet. Also because it points at the D&D grognards that complained so hard about the engagement and endurance/health mechanics when PoE's beta came out.

 

I remember those complaints very well. I laughed really hard when I saw the description.

[Ophiuchus]

It's also a troll - in reference to said grognards.

[thelee]

I still don't really understand what the pet does.  I mean, I can read "prevents engagment" - and I see you saying that means that if you run away from mobs that are meleeing you, they don't get disengagement attacks.  Is that it?  They can still run up and melee you right?  

 

What is the point of the pet -- like, what was it designed to do?  D&D players didn't like mobs getting disengagement attacks on you?

 

That's the point of the pet, as Boeroer says (along with the history lesson).

 

What in my mind makes Grog secret tech is in Deadfire, as an enemy winds up a melee attack (i.e. they aren't recovering anymore and their ability icon starts filling), the inability for enemies to engage you means you can move your character out of melee range without consequence. (Ordinarily a disengagement attack would be made at +20 accuracy and +100% damage which uh is pretty brutal coming from a boss.) That melee attack still completes because AI doesn't know how to cancel, but because you are now no longer in melee range, in the combat log you see that the attack misses due to "(out of range)". It's probably way too much of a micromanagement headache for most fights, but when we're talking about a boss or a megaboss of which there might be only one and who might have powerful melee attacks, this effectively means you can infinitely tank a boss without ever taking damage, unless they do a ranged attack.

 

EDIT - also old infinity engine games had no concept of "knockout", being reduced to 0 health was death. This is probably another thing these grognards were bitter about. (Though strictly speaking it was not permadeath unless you got hit with significant excess damage.)

Edited January 31, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Fun fact: in PoE it didn't matter if you walked out of range after an attack had been initiated. You'd get hit anyway (if the roll was successful). In Deafire they implemented the described  "out of reach" feature - which was a good thing in my opinion.

 

Grog lets you do the stuff that a rogue can do when his Defensive Roll kicks in - or what a Barb can do after activating Wild Sprint. And you can always move - recovery will not stop you like it might prevent Escape or Evasive Roll.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Boeroer

[Ophiuchus]

Grog plus Footsteps of the Beast sounds fun - heck, you could always cheat and import copies through hirelings. Too bad there's no "Fire Walk With Me" spells in the game.

[thelee]

Fun fact: in PoE it didn't matter if you walked out of range after an attack had been initiated. You'd get hit anyway (if the roll was successful). In Deafire they implemented the described  "out of reach" feature - which was a good thing in my opinion.

 

Tyranny did it first. Boy that was a surprising learning curve coming in from PoE1 and seeing my attacks miss because the enemy moved a bit.

[thelee]

Grog plus Footsteps of the Beast sounds fun - heck, you could always cheat and import copies through hirelings. Too bad there's no "Fire Walk With Me" spells in the game.

 

arterial strike is close. grog means that even if your hobble misses or the enemy is dex affliction resistant, you can still force them to chase you around while they bleed to death.

Edited January 31, 2019 by thelee

[brasilgringo]

I'm trying to remember if I had to worry about disengagement attacks on the 3 megabosses I tackled solo, and it doesn't spring to mind.  I know i killed Doru solo (I think on my Tac/Bloodmage, though maybe it was on my BDD Thaumaturge), but I don't remember disengagement attacks being a thing.  I definitely know they hurt me in other encounters, just figured it was part of the mechanics.  Nice you found a cool use for the pet!

[Dr <3]

Thks to both theleee & boeroer for the easter egg story!

[Boeroer]

 

Fun fact: in PoE it didn't matter if you walked out of range after an attack had been initiated. You'd get hit anyway (if the roll was successful). In Deafire they implemented the described "out of reach" feature - which was a good thing in my opinion.

Tyranny did it first. Boy that was a surprising learning curve coming in from PoE1 and seeing my attacks miss because the enemy moved a bit.

Oh no! You reminded me of Tyranny! *shakes fist*

[Haplok]

The negativity towards disengagement attacks from grognards was really an ironic turn of events. Sure, the IE games, held as the Holy Grail of computer gaming by some, had no disengagement attacks. But their source material, the DnD system, sure does have Attacks of Opportunity.

 

Another current popular crpg title, based on Pathinder system (which is basically a fork from DnD 3.5), Pathfinder: Kingmaker, also features Attacks of Opportunity - in fact on a scale previously unseen in computer gaming, as you can provoke massive AoO chains (via pushing or knocking enemies down - even two AoOs per character in range with Greater Trip, disarming, demoralizing ->  frightening - forcing to flee, via Teamwork feats on crits: Outflank, Seize the Moment, rogue Opportunist feat). 

[Enoch]

The negativity towards disengagement attacks from grognards was really an ironic turn of events. Sure, the IE games, held as the Holy Grail of computer gaming by some, had no disengagement attacks. But their source material, the DnD system, sure does have Attacks of Opportunity.

 

Another current popular crpg title, based on Pathinder system (which is basically a fork from DnD 3.5), Pathfinder: Kingmaker, also features Attacks of Opportunity - in fact on a scale previously unseen in computer gaming, as you can provoke massive AoO chains (via pushing or knocking enemies down - even two AoOs per character in range with Greater Trip, disarming, demoralizing ->  frightening - forcing to flee, via Teamwork feats on crits: Outflank, Seize the Moment, rogue Opportunist feat). 

AD&D 2e had no AoOs, and that was the D&D version that all of the IE games except for IWD2 were based.

[thelee]

 

The negativity towards disengagement attacks from grognards was really an ironic turn of events. Sure, the IE games, held as the Holy Grail of computer gaming by some, had no disengagement attacks. But their source material, the DnD system, sure does have Attacks of Opportunity.

 

Another current popular crpg title, based on Pathinder system (which is basically a fork from DnD 3.5), Pathfinder: Kingmaker, also features Attacks of Opportunity - in fact on a scale previously unseen in computer gaming, as you can provoke massive AoO chains (via pushing or knocking enemies down - even two AoOs per character in range with Greater Trip, disarming, demoralizing ->  frightening - forcing to flee, via Teamwork feats on crits: Outflank, Seize the Moment, rogue Opportunist feat). 

AD&D 2e had no AoOs, and that was the D&D version that all of the IE games except for IWD2 were based.

 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if grognards also hated 3e's changes to D&D compared to AD&D.

[protopersona]

 

 

The negativity towards disengagement attacks from grognards was really an ironic turn of events. Sure, the IE games, held as the Holy Grail of computer gaming by some, had no disengagement attacks. But their source material, the DnD system, sure does have Attacks of Opportunity.

 

Another current popular crpg title, based on Pathinder system (which is basically a fork from DnD 3.5), Pathfinder: Kingmaker, also features Attacks of Opportunity - in fact on a scale previously unseen in computer gaming, as you can provoke massive AoO chains (via pushing or knocking enemies down - even two AoOs per character in range with Greater Trip, disarming, demoralizing ->  frightening - forcing to flee, via Teamwork feats on crits: Outflank, Seize the Moment, rogue Opportunist feat). 

AD&D 2e had no AoOs, and that was the D&D version that all of the IE games except for IWD2 were based.

 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if grognards also hated 3e's changes to D&D compared to AD&D.

 

From what I remember 3e and 3.5e were mostly well received, especially since by that time 2e had become very convoluted, bloated and had core mechanics that didn't work like you logically expected, like THACO. 3e fixed a lot of those things and began actually nailing down concrete combat rules. It was a welcome change from the abstraction of 2e, and paved the way for minis to represent combat.

 

Now 4e on the other hand, there was a ruleset the community got up in arms about.

[PugPug]

D&D grognards saw PoE in beta and hated the engagement mechanics. Infinity Games have no engagement. You can rund around like headless chicken to the music of the Benny Hill Show and won't get punished. And because that's the superior thing they hated the new thing. Had nothing to do with nostalgia or being retrogressive or so...

 

Engagement enables you to do disengament attack, yes. It also stops your movement for a short time. If you point your char to point X and he will get engaged on the way he will stop. You have to actively move him away (and eat a diseng. attack).

 

I think "stop on engagement" is actually optional, it's just enabled by default. You'd still get the attack of opportunity disengagement attack, of course.

Edited February 1, 2019 by PugPug

[Boeroer]

Right