Frustrated by the game design

[Bleak]

 

  simple do a google search with terms: d&d; counter; intuitive.  will keep you busy for a long time.

 

 

 

I probably agree with most of your post, but this is just an internet platitude. You can google ANYTHING and be kept busy for a long time. The internet is strange. Very strange.

 

*Goes to search 'purple eggs dinosaurs'*

 

 

In other words you can confirm any bias, especially for something that has been around for so long.

 

@Gromnir

 

1) Yes, I am talking about the bonus that every 2 points give, not the points themselves. There is merit in having every attribute count for every class but I don't prefer it thematically, or practically. Thematically, the reasons are self-explanatory, practically because essentially every attribute affects every class in the same flat way.

 

2) Triple understood my gripe and prefers the PoE system. The factor of randomness and consistency of the resolution obviously differ. As Triple said, most of the time it is more predictable and forgiving in PoE. 

 

3) You can argue in favor of both systems and your arguments can be legit. They differ - beyond that it's a matter of preference. The options/combos that can be utilized in DnD are still vast, but as you said it has been around for years so it definitely is not fair to compare them on that.

 

I agree that a *sense* of balance creates diversity by making all classes a viable option. That's where I draw the line for balancing a non-mmo game though. Variety is even more important even if it means e.g. that a class will be much superior than another class during the "end game". Trying to balance every class in order for it to be *equally viable* throughout the game (and not just viable) will eventually lead to a degree of homogenization. I enjoy this part of the lack of balance in DnD, because not every vocation is created equally - I find it more refreshingly realistic. Same for e.g. instant kill spells, "they are all of nothing" spells, they are not "balanced", but that is also part of what makes them unique. I would certainly not put them in an mmo but I think that in a crpg like this, we shouldn't be so enamoured with the lack of balance.

 

I am not saying that Josh didn't do a good job creating a system - he did and the system is still new after all, but again, it's a matter of preference for someone who has experienced both systems. 

 

 

Btw regarding the previous topic, why even post any feedback if the only guy who sees it is this one https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107555-level-cap-increase/?

Edited December 27, 2018 by Bleak

[Gromnir]

 

  simple do a google search with terms: d&d; counter; intuitive.  will keep you busy for a long time.

 

 

 

I probably agree with most of your post, but this is just an internet platitude. You can google ANYTHING and be kept busy for a long time. The internet is strange. Very strange.

 

*Goes to search 'purple eggs dinosaurs'*

 

there is something 'bout the internet which makes folks wanna embrace absurdist.

 

try and find internet support for notion the 2002 houston texans were the bestest nfl team ever.

 

...

 

we can wait.

 

even if you do find such support for ridiculous arguments such as intuitive d&d or the dominance o' the 2002 texans, such stuff will be outliers and fringe.  yeah, the present situation is illuminating as is seeming proof o' the curious proposition that any thread 'bout the craptacular idiosyncrasies o' d&d, ad&d, and d20 will seeming attract at least one guy who argues d&d multiclassing, dual class and thac0 were not only superior to any other crpg system, but that such stuff were intuitive.  the, "you can always find one guy" wackiness is maybe not universal, but is indeed approaching truism. 

 

again, am not suggesting the bare existence o' internet debate 'bout counter intuitive, nonsensical and exception laden d&d is proof o' counterintuitive d&d.  nevertheless, if opposition to a belief is widespread and approaching universal, a reasonable person would at least pause to question their certainty.  bleak wanted to avoid the "can o' worms," as he/she put it, no?  Gromnir were identifying the actual nature o' the can o' worms and recognizing how the can were not some kinda balanced debate where reasonable minds may and do disagree.  all you gotta do is look for similar arguments which has happened ad nauseum on these boards alone.  d&d, for all its popularity and strength as an enduring crpg system, has never been particular intuitive.... though it does indeed feel as if there is always that one tenacious rearguard defender o' the faith. 

 

sadly, the argument itself is becoming predictive repetitive.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39400-intuitive-rules-2nd-ed-add-vs-dd-3e35/?p=526646

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[draego]

from Triple - A Foxy Lad in other thread

 

the warning id give is that its balanced around someone who knows how to abuse pathfinder or 3.x. so builds that wont have u throwing computer out of window in frustration arent always obvious. do urself a favour and check how to build before playing.

 

also be willing to look up the necessary counter spell for certain fights if u run into a wall. - for example i ran into one annoying fight that was rendered utterly trivial by 'disrupting weapons'. 'death ward' and 'freedom of movement' have starring turns as well. because its a d&d game, 'haste', the concealment spells, 'mirror image' + 'stoneskin' are all busted, as is tradition.

 

this is good example of the non intuitiveness of d&d. POE is more intuitive to start the game you can just pick you Attributes and Abilities and you will be fine with the descriptions the game provides. You cant do that in d&d you have to know that certain attributes are needed for certain class and learn that certain abilities are traps. When presented with the abilities and attributes up front you would not realize this. There is way more meta game knowledge needed to start a game. 

 

Also the idea that accuracy vs (fort, will, ref, def) is less intuitive than different saving throws is ridiculous.  And as far as the hard counters as presented above. I saw a streamer try to fight some swarms of something in pathfinder and get wrecked over and over and someone told them to equip torches and throw some kind of fire bombs (shocking they didnt have any or the alchemist class to make any the game basically trapped them) but they finally finished the encounter. The game didnt explain this in the least chat had to explain this. That is the very definition of opaque unlike POE where you can see the defense the enemy is weak to on the screen. There are just to many examples like that not to see that

Edited December 27, 2018 by draego

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Also the idea that accuracy vs (fort, will, ref, def) is less intuitive than different saving throws is ridiculous. 

 

one issue i have with d&d is that it seems totally random whether the attacker rolls to hit or the defender rolls to evade/resist. like why doesnt a caster aim a fireball the same way an archer fires a crossbow. pfft.

 

and dont get me started on grappling. wtf is going on there. if that warrants opposing rolls, why doesnt anything else.

 

at least in POE everything is straight up an attack roll - no exceptions - like im not one to prize consistency for its own sake, but it makes more immediate sense.

 

 

And as far as the hard counters as presented above. I saw a streamer try to fight some swarms of something in pathfinder and get wrecked over and over and someone told them to equip torches and throw some kind of fire bombs 

 

i know the encounter ur on about. tbf the game now warns u about this and gives u a generous stack of alchemists fire in advance. it doesnt pay you the same courtesy later on, but i guess u cant expect it to hold ur hand throughout.

[Boeroer]

 

30% dmg bonus from Overpenetration is additive, not multiplicative.

 

Damage bonus from Power Level is multiplicative.

 

Not the damage from overpenetration, but the threshold for overpenetration (2x armor) and bonus from critical hits (1.5x penetration). I like how those behave at the beginning of the game or when you're still in fine equipment, but late game with legendary gear and max level enemies neither of those functions all that well.

 

I think it'd work better with, say, +2(3?) pen on crit and +3(4?) pen over armor for overpen, or similar - something that made it work consistently throughout the game.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification!

[Archaven]

The problem I find with deadfire is that it does not have a "definite" ruleset. Game you played few months back are quite different today. Balance wise. They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

[Bleak]

They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

Exactly. As long as the options are viable, that level of balancing is not needed.

[Gromnir]

 

They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

Exactly. As long as the options are viable, that level of balancing is not needed.

 

unless you establish that deadfire as played now is worse than deadfire as played months ago, am not seeing how such a balance "criticism" is noteworthy.  there is respec in game, which thanks to continued patching efforts, now works.  so, overall positive balance changes, which improve gameplay as described earlier in this thread, is bad in what way? 

 

constant efforts to improve game would appear to be a laudable developer effort.  is new content which is being added via dlc and chances for breaking the game by accident has been a constant possibility.  even so, developers is not abandoning an otherwise broken game and is instead attempting to fix those bugs and mechanical imbalances which tend to diminish gameplay.

 

now am admitting that w/o respec, major changes to a character even when such changes is well-intentioned, may be more than a little disruptive.  is a bit hyperbolic, but if a player's entire character concept hinges on a specific synergy o' features which were emmasculated in buld X.x, then a player will understandably face frustration as they is stuck with a similarly emasculated character.  the thing is respec is a reasonable solution to such problems.  sure, is tough to feel too much pity for the player overinvested in exploitive gameplay, but even if such is the case, the player may respec character howsoever they wish rather than needing restart a game.  is no loss o' tens o' hours o' gameplay 'cause o' the uncaring balancing efforts o' developers.

 

and serious, we could deal with a bit less definitive when it comes to broken features in deadfire.  find an easy way to overhaul penetration or make priest spell catalog less unbalanced even +8 months after release o' deadfire would be more than simple welcome. 

 

alternative would be to end developer efforts to fix and balance clear broken features for the sake o' definitive.

 

am thinking snoopy "said" it best.

 

 

when deadfire music inevitable stops, will be disappointing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ensign]

The problem I find with deadfire is that it does not have a "definite" ruleset. Game you played few months back are quite different today. Balance wise. They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

If you want to use an old overtuned thing, or add new overtuned things there are plenty of mods for that.

 

The unmodified game should be as close to balanced as possible.  You want first time players who have read nothing about strategy or tactics ahead of time to have a consistent experience, and you can't deliver that if the various options (which they will be choosing from quasi-randomly) are wildly out of balance with each other.

[DaylenAmell]

 

They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

Exactly. As long as the options are viable, that level of balancing is not needed.

 

Balance encourages people to try different classes and playstyles. If some classes are much stronger than others, many people would only play those classes and their gaming experienced relatively restricted.  

Edited December 28, 2018 by DaylenAmell

[house2fly]

Yeah, as well as the player's point of view, the game developer might want to tweak and balance because if nobody wants to play as a chanter, then why are chanters in the game? Why did they work on all these abilities and dialogue options?

[Gromnir]

Yeah, as well as the player's point of view, the game developer might want to tweak and balance because if nobody wants to play as a chanter, then why are chanters in the game? Why did they work on all these abilities and dialogue options?

is a good point.  in our opinion, the best stronghold quest from bg2 were bard.  in addition to simple fun o' gameplay, the bard quest were most thematic integral to critical path story and all the macbeth allusion which accompanied the irenicus story.  unfortunate, given the general perception o' bard suckage, few players ever actual got to experience the bard stronghold quest.  waste.  on some level its gotta be difficult for a developer who knows they did good work but 'cause o' mechanics issues over which they personal had no control, little recognition ever comes their way.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Manveru123]

 

The problem I find with deadfire is that it does not have a "definite" ruleset. Game you played few months back are quite different today. Balance wise. They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

If you want to use an old overtuned thing, or add new overtuned things there are plenty of mods for that.

 

The unmodified game should be as close to balanced as possible.  You want first time players who have read nothing about strategy or tactics ahead of time to have a consistent experience, and you can't deliver that if the various options (which they will be choosing from quasi-randomly) are wildly out of balance with each other.

 

Most of those players are playing on difficulty levels where balance doesn't matter. All of the changes made over the months are completely irrelevant below PotD.

 

 

 

They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

Exactly. As long as the options are viable, that level of balancing is not needed.

 

unless you establish that deadfire as played now is worse than deadfire as played months ago, am not seeing how such a balance "criticism" is noteworthy.  there is respec in game, which thanks to continued patching efforts, now works.  so, overall positive balance changes, which improve gameplay as described earlier in this thread, is bad in what way? 

 

constant efforts to improve game would appear to be a laudable developer effort.  is new content which is being added via dlc and chances for breaking the game by accident has been a constant possibility.  even so, developers is not abandoning an otherwise broken game and is instead attempting to fix those bugs and mechanical imbalances which tend to diminish gameplay.

 

 

What "dimnishes gameplay" is having to face a situation where you spend 40 hours on a character that suddenly got ****e because a patch "rebalanced" him. And if you happen to play on PotD, well tough luck mate, muscle through or restart. How is that good? This is common in MMORPG and most players of that genre kinda expect it, but for single player, this is just dumb. Mod the game for yourself if you're not satisfied with it and leave my playthroughs alone please. And reset does not let you change your class or even subclass so it barely solves anything.

 

Oh and speaking of Bards in BG2, at least Blade was somewhat viable ^_^

 

 

Yeah, as well as the player's point of view, the game developer might want to tweak and balance because if nobody wants to play as a chanter, then why are chanters in the game? Why did they work on all these abilities and dialogue options?

Fun fact: if all Obs did was buff weak classes, I seriously doubt anyone would ever complain. Instead they tend to just nerf whatever's strong at the moment, instead of pulling the "bad" options up to be competitive. If a class is so strong that it trivializes content, well then make some harder content!

Edited December 29, 2018 by Manveru123

[Gromnir]

the developers mod the game to make it better.  the crucial op builds which is nerfed by developers is actual busted and diminish gameplay options as obvious best builds mean folks gravitate towards such builds to the exclusion o' other options.  regardless, you are able to respec a deadfire potd character or companions or sidekicks or mercenaries, so most o' the last post were... noise.  yeah, rebalance exploitive gameplay or op features may annoy some group o' folks, but respec obviates any noteworthy burden. given the availability o' respec, to ignore need for game improvement 'cause some group o' folks is emotional attached to op builds would be childishly myopic.  thank goodness the obsidians is a bit more mature.

 

now, that said, respec were not working properly for first few months after release.  as such, we were sympathizing with folks complaining o' balance changes at the time.  respec fix shoulda' been more o' a priority if obsidian were gonna make significant mechanics changes which had game altering impact 'pon more than a few classes and builds.  lack o' working respec did indeed compel a few folks to endure genuine bad characters or a restart following potential tens o' hours o' arguable wasted gameplay.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Fun fact: if all Obs did was buff weak classes, I seriously doubt anyone would ever complain.

 

lmao. have u met people. if not, ur in for a wild ride fam.

[Gromnir]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/161302725596/balance-in-single-player-crpgs

 

has been posted many times, but is worth a re-read.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[protopersona]

Fun fact: if all Obs did was buff weak classes, I seriously doubt anyone would ever complain. Instead they tend to just nerf whatever's strong at the moment, instead of pulling the "bad" options up to be competitive. If a class is so strong that it trivializes content, well then make some harder content!

Yeah, as well as the player's point of view, the game developer might want to tweak and balance because if nobody wants to play as a chanter, then why are chanters in the game? Why did they work on all these abilities and dialogue options?

There's a limit to this line of thinking. At some point buffing everything to be in line with the vastly OP choice often means the entire games balance goes out of whack. Enemies will have to become so powerful that they 1 or 2 shot any non-tank character just by looking in their general direction. It makes the balance of the game extremely prone to swinginess. You end up praying you get lucky, or learn to save scum. MMO games have tried this style balance, and so far it's just not humanly possible to pull it off.

Edited December 29, 2018 by protopersona

[Ensign]

Still, nerfing abilities to the point where they no longer function is not a great design. Taking Brilliant off of Set to their Purpose, for instance, didn't just tone down that character and skill, it nuked it from orbit (and that variant isn't even playable or re-specable anymore).

 

It took them several iterations to figure out brilliant, but that speaks to the import of getting the fundamentals right up front - moving numbers around a bit is annoying for players built around those, but completely removing functions causes real problems for games in progress.

[Boeroer]

Obsidian, or maybe Josh in particular, have a tendency to overnerf a bit. Then they rebuff until balance is ok. I would like a less "flip-floppy" approach but besides that I'm all for balancing.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Boeroer

[Manveru123]

the developers mod the game to make it better.  the crucial op builds which is nerfed by developers is actual busted and diminish gameplay options as obvious best builds mean folks gravitate towards such builds to the exclusion o' other options.  regardless, you are able to respec a deadfire potd character or companions or sidekicks or mercenaries, so most o' the last post were... noise.  yeah, rebalance exploitive gameplay or op features may annoy some group o' folks, but respec obviates any noteworthy burden. given the availability o' respec, to ignore need for game improvement 'cause some group o' folks is emotional attached to op builds would be childishly myopic.  thank goodness the obsidians is a bit more mature.

 

now, that said, respec were not working properly for first few months after release.  as such, we were sympathizing with folks complaining o' balance changes at the time.  respec fix shoulda' been more o' a priority if obsidian were gonna make significant mechanics changes which had game altering impact 'pon more than a few classes and builds.  lack o' working respec did indeed compel a few folks to endure genuine bad characters or a restart following potential tens o' hours o' arguable wasted gameplay.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Do you only read every second line or something? Because I clearly said that respec doesn't solve everything because you can't change your class or subclass. Respec doesn't do **** if I'm stuck with a combination of classes that is suddenly weak because someone somewhere deemed it "op".

 

 

Fun fact: if all Obs did was buff weak classes, I seriously doubt anyone would ever complain. Instead they tend to just nerf whatever's strong at the moment, instead of pulling the "bad" options up to be competitive. If a class is so strong that it trivializes content, well then make some harder content!

Yeah, as well as the player's point of view, the game developer might want to tweak and balance because if nobody wants to play as a chanter, then why are chanters in the game? Why did they work on all these abilities and dialogue options?

There's a limit to this line of thinking. At some point buffing everything to be in line with the vastly OP choice often means the entire games balance goes out of whack. Enemies will have to become so powerful that they 1 or 2 shot any non-tank character just by looking in their general direction. It makes the balance of the game extremely prone to swinginess. You end up praying you get lucky, or learn to save scum. MMO games have tried this style balance, and so far it's just not humanly possible to pull it off.

 

It's called powercreep and every game with constant content updates has it. Surprisingly, some companies (Square Enix for example; well, nowadays, because they used to be terrible at it too) do it remarkably well. The enemies get stronger, but your characters get stronger too. The scales keep going upwards. The bosses are doing more damage? Here's some new shiny gear with better defensive stats. Oh by the way, we buffed healers too! And while we were at it, some underperforming melee classes have been buffed aswell. THAT'S how you do balance.

[Manveru123]

 

Fun fact: if all Obs did was buff weak classes, I seriously doubt anyone would ever complain.

 

lmao. have u met people. if not, ur in for a wild ride fam.

 

Have you actually played a game that does what I wrote? Because obviously not.

[Boeroer]

He obviously meant the part where you said that "nobody would complain".

[rheingold]

Obsidian, or maybe Josh in particular, have a tendency to overnerf a bit. Then they rebuff until balance is ok. I would like a less "flip-floppy" approach but besides that I'm all for balancing.

Josh has an odd system when it comes to balancing. He does indeed intentionally over nerf, because it then gives him a top and bottom to work with. He now a range to work with.

I'm not a fan of it personally, I'd prefer really small adjustments till you get it right. But it's kinda hard to argue with his results and frankly his experience. My complaint about Deadfire really is about the main plot narrative, but when it comes to game mechanics I can't think of a better person than Sawyer. He really understands the nitty gritty and there ain't many devs around who have his understanding,or who can build a system like POE or Deadfire. I think both games are criminally underrated from the class mechanics and balance point of view.

Balance even in single player is really important and he gets that. It's also really difficult if not impossible to get absolutely right, and at any point, you are going to nerf someone's favorite class/ability, and boy, this being the Internet.... the tears are going to flow.

But realistically, I'm not sure you'll get anyone better than obs in terms of balance.

[Manveru123]

 

But realistically, I'm not sure you'll get anyone better than obs in terms of balance.

 

Thanos.

[Gromnir]

 

the developers mod the game to make it better.  the crucial op builds which is nerfed by developers is actual busted and diminish gameplay options as obvious best builds mean folks gravitate towards such builds to the exclusion o' other options.  regardless, you are able to respec a deadfire potd character or companions or sidekicks or mercenaries, so most o' the last post were... noise.  yeah, rebalance exploitive gameplay or op features may annoy some group o' folks, but respec obviates any noteworthy burden. given the availability o' respec, to ignore need for game improvement 'cause some group o' folks is emotional attached to op builds would be childishly myopic.  thank goodness the obsidians is a bit more mature.

 

now, that said, respec were not working properly for first few months after release.  as such, we were sympathizing with folks complaining o' balance changes at the time.  respec fix shoulda' been more o' a priority if obsidian were gonna make significant mechanics changes which had game altering impact 'pon more than a few classes and builds.  lack o' working respec did indeed compel a few folks to endure genuine bad characters or a restart following potential tens o' hours o' arguable wasted gameplay.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Do you only read every second line or something? Because I clearly said that respec doesn't solve everything because you can't change your class or subclass. Respec doesn't do **** if I'm stuck with a combination of classes that is suddenly weak because someone somewhere deemed it "op".

 

calling bs for multiple reasons.

 

at end of your response, you state,

 

"And reset does not let you change your class or even subclass so it barely solves anything."

 

and is inclusive.  is an addition to that which you had stated earlier in the response.  you explained (incorrect) reasons why respec were a fail for potd, as if potd made a difference. then you added an and.  is simple a grammar fail?  don't think so.

 

regardless, no nerf has invalidated a subclass, much less a class.  sure, loss o' brilliant for chanters made 'em less powerful and depowering summons made so beckoners were no longer op, but the idea that either were rendered impotent or weak is hyperbole... at best.  w/o win button silliness o' chanter aoe brilliant, were chanters relative weak compared to previous state?  sure, but has been no class or subclass rendered unplayable or even bad by obsidian balance efforts.  less op is not same as weak. 

 

*chuckle*

 

is where am gonna disagree with boeroer in fact.  am thinking all too often people looks at individual nerfs in isolation.  compare aforementioned set to their purpose chanter invocation before and after nerf and is no question the impact were dramatic.  set to their purpose were a win-button ability which sudden became an invocation of middling value.  however, to suggest chanters as a whole sudden became weak would be ludicrous.  is one guy on the boards who simple will not shut up 'bout herald opness and while he is thankful an outlier, is few o' the build monkeys who resist notion o' herald or chanter efficacy.  is they all wrong?  perhaps, but seems unlikely.  am disagreeing with folks who see obsidian tendency to over-nerf.  josh mentions in linked balance commentary how most o' his poe adjustments were actual buffs.  am thinking belief in a tendency to overnerf is only reasonable when looking at nerfs isolated from overall class efficacy, which is a mistake.  am also guessing (pure conjecture on this point) boeroer and others is considering such nerfs from pov o' potd gameplay, which obsidian has stated ad nauseum is not the difficulty by which deadfire is tuned.  only a small % play potd, though such players  is obvious overrepresented on these boards. look to potd balance is a mistake, though am admitted as likely to do so as those am calling out on this point as have personal not played other than potd in a long time.

 

in our estimation, the significant deadfire nerfs were not class specific.  penetration were thankful nerfed during the beta.  were not a bug which resulted in opness o' any penetration related ability or weapon quality.  obsidian nerfed penetration in general, for balance reasons, and while certain classes and powers sudden became less useful, am not thinking any class or subclass were devalued to point o' unplayability.  thank goodness for the nerf.  might math were wrong all during the beta.  weren't 'til release might got fixed.  sure, such a change disproportionate affected helwalkers and various barbarian builds, but who wanna suggest the change made the monk subclass or barbarian class unplayable or even weak?  anybody?  thank goodness for the nerf. possible the most significant early nerf were the on-crit effects o' many weapons.  any number o' weapons a significant depowering after the crit nerf.  qq.  is only one possible situation in which such a nerf would gain our sympathy, and even then is so meta as to make us derisive.  devoted is indeed limited to a single weapon group to be effective, and a few o' the weapon groups is underrepresented in deadfire... which were even more the case at time o' crit weapon nerfing.  am s'posing if one chose battle axes as a single-class, non-caster devoted, the nerf to crit weapons coupled with a specific upgrade o' magran's favor might be cause for dismay... 'course magran's favor is a late game weapon, so likely played successful tens o' hours before acquiring said axe, so...

 

regardless, am calling bs.  is no class or subclass we would deem genuine weak or unplayable 'cause o' a nerf.  is actual difficult to identify a genuine weak deadfire class and the only real subclasses we don't like is a few o' the new offerings from the recent dlc... and am not seeing a point to a few o' the wizard subclasses.  wit their grimoires, wizards is generally op, so even a bad subclass is nevertheless effective and viable.  however, those new dlc subclasses need some balancing, eh?  would be more than a little disappointing if obsidian simple stopped their efforts to fix oddities and bugs simple 'cause o' man123 fears. 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/forum/132-patch-beta-bugs-and-support/?prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all

 

is literal dozens o' posts identifying curious behaviour from the new subclasses.  but man123 wants obsidian to play pontius pilate?

 

 

is a dramatic scene, but while we may sympathize with pilate's choice, am not wanting obsidian to make similar choice.... regardless o' the howls from a few who seem intent on maintaining a notoriously broken status quo. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps  am knowing were in jest, but one o' the difficulties we had with avengers were thanos' big balance.  too stoopid for words.  a mindless and arbitrary halving o' universal population were an idiotic solution to a perceived problem.  if obsidian cannot do better, we weep for future o' deadfire and tOW and... whatever. 

Edited December 29, 2018 by Gromnir