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Level cap increase?

level cap level cap progression

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19 replies to this topic

#1
Bleak

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Same generic title, because you can't beat a dead horse enough, if someone refuses to understand some basic principles which were done correctly by 20 yo games. Not happy with xp requirement scaling, level to content progression, much of itemization and xp reward amount analogy to sources.

 

"Completionists", "Rushers", new generation utter nonsense I say. A game should be made to be experienced in its whole. Side != sub-par and I really hope the devs themselves have enough confidence in the content they made to realize that. If someone doesn't want to experience most of the game's content and just rush through the main quest line, one shouldn't mind not experiencing a few spell levels/feats either before finishing the game. And if the end content turns out to be difficult, good thing there are plenty of difficulty options. 

 
As for the cap, if you can't get it right, it would be the easiest thing to add simple but interesting and clever "epic feats" or passives to chase after level 20 with a soft cap, that won't require new animations, effects etc, just a bloody line of code.  And these should be *needed* during the "end-content" on POTD. Itemization could follow the same principles.

 

Meh.


Edited by Bleak, 26 December 2018 - 03:01 PM.


#2
house2fly

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Just mod the epic feats in, dude. It's the easiest thing.


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#3
Bleak

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Just mod the epic feats in, dude. It's the easiest thing.

 

Nope, that's the second easiest thing.



#4
the_dog_days

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A game should be made to be experienced in its whole.

 

A game should be made to be experienced as much as the player wants to.


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#5
Bleak

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A game should be made to be experienced in its whole.

 

A game should be made to be experienced as much as the player wants to.

 

 

It shouldn't be *made* for that, it should only anticipate it. The player can always choose how much he will play and naturally the game must do its best job to draw him in. What you say though isn't even happening in PoE, else there would be an option to skip content, level fully and reach the end for players who want a very brief experience. It still is a story-driven crpg not a mobile game.

 

What I am saying is simply that players who don't want to experience any sides and rush, shouldn't mind being underleveled missing a few abilities and that character progression should be balanced around all of its content.



#6
Verde

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A game should be made to be experienced in its whole.


A game should be made to be experienced as much as the player wants to.

Sarcasm?

A game, a piece of entertainment, or even a piece of art is best left to the vision of the creator, flaws and all. It's when a creator listens to the unwashed masses that we get a Deadfire-type main story :p

#7
Bleak

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A game should be made to be experienced in its whole.


A game should be made to be experienced as much as the player wants to.

Sarcasm?

A game, a piece of entertainment, or even a piece of art is best left to the vision of the creator, flaws and all. It's when a creator listens to the unwashed masses that we get a Deadfire-type main story :p

 

 

Exactly, any piece of art.



#8
carlstar

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Without raising XP caps, it becomes a forced storytelling game, which is an option, instead of having a challenge and advancing. Without it, it is only for those that want a story, which again is already an option. It stops being a game about 4/5 through the original game if you do everything and if you don't want to do everything then why bother with it.

DLCs are just for the storytellers only. Sad that the game is only half game and half storytelling after the DLCs are added. I really don't understand why they don't want to make a full game which is what people supported them to make. A game with a story and not just a game that stops halfway through. No reason to support a story game like this in the future. 

Design a system that expands in the future. I have a system that can go on forever if you want to use it obsidian but I am only someone that did it without any funding and for the love it.



#9
Wormerine

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Without raising XP caps, it becomes a forced storytelling game, which is an option, instead of having a challenge and advancing. Without it, it is only for those that want a story, which again is already an option. It stops being a game about 4/5 through the original game if you do everything and if you don't want to do everything then why bother with it.

DLCs are just for the storytellers only. Sad that the game is only half game and half storytelling after the DLCs are added. I really don't understand why they don't want to make a full game which is what people supported them to make. A game with a story and not just a game that stops halfway through. No reason to support a story game like this in the future. 

Design a system that expands in the future. I have a system that can go on forever if you want to use it obsidian but I am only someone that did it without any funding and for the love it.

I don't think I understand. DLCs add plenty of gameplay, including new items, new type of item, they expanded ranger's tree and now added new subclasses for each class. In addition DLC include new enemies, new encounter design and include the hardest content in the game apart of the megabosses which were added for every one for three. 

Adding unending (or expanded) leveling up system only damages gameplay, as one of the main issues of the game is (or at least was, didn't play the base game in a while, maybe it's much better one) that there is too much mid level content and you tend to outlevel most of the stuff there, providing poor gameplay experience. Adding unending power creep would only hurt gameplay, not improve it. 
 

Unless you are one of those people who like Diablo and such, were you do boring stuff to get better stuff, to be able repeat boring stuff but on higher level. This is not Diablo, and it never aimed to be Diablo. I hope it will never aim to be Diablo. If there is something the game could use, please suggest it. I can't think of anything, really. There seem to be a desire for endless leveling up, without an idea what current levels actually lack. 


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#10
Bleak

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Without raising XP caps, it becomes a forced storytelling game, which is an option, instead of having a challenge and advancing. Without it, it is only for those that want a story, which again is already an option. It stops being a game about 4/5 through the original game if you do everything and if you don't want to do everything then why bother with it.

DLCs are just for the storytellers only. Sad that the game is only half game and half storytelling after the DLCs are added. I really don't understand why they don't want to make a full game which is what people supported them to make. A game with a story and not just a game that stops halfway through. No reason to support a story game like this in the future. 

Design a system that expands in the future. I have a system that can go on forever if you want to use it obsidian but I am only someone that did it without any funding and for the love it.

I don't think I understand. DLCs add plenty of gameplay, including new items, new type of item, they expanded ranger's tree and now added new subclasses for each class. In addition DLC include new enemies, new encounter design and include the hardest content in the game apart of the megabosses which were added for every one for three. 

Adding unending (or expanded) leveling up system only damages gameplay, as one of the main issues of the game is (or at least was, didn't play the base game in a while, maybe it's much better one) that there is too much mid level content and you tend to outlevel most of the stuff there, providing poor gameplay experience. Adding unending power creep would only hurt gameplay, not improve it. 
 

Unless you are one of those people who like Diablo and such, were you do boring stuff to get better stuff, to be able repeat boring stuff but on higher level. This is not Diablo, and it never aimed to be Diablo. I hope it will never aim to be Diablo. If there is something the game could use, please suggest it. I can't think of anything, really. There seem to be a desire for endless leveling up, without an idea what current levels actually lack. 

 

 

They don't have to add infinite leveling but they could add some epic feats with large xp requirements (like 2 empowers/encounter, other passives etc) + fix the game's xp progression curve. Character progression in crpgs is one of their core elements and shouldn't become obsolete halfway through. 



#11
daven

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They should put in the high level ability from BG2 whirlwind attack for Fighters. Used to love hammering enemies with that!



#12
carlstar

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Without raising XP caps, it becomes a forced storytelling game, which is an option, instead of having a challenge and advancing. Without it, it is only for those that want a story, which again is already an option. It stops being a game about 4/5 through the original game if you do everything and if you don't want to do everything then why bother with it.

DLCs are just for the storytellers only. Sad that the game is only half game and half storytelling after the DLCs are added. I really don't understand why they don't want to make a full game which is what people supported them to make. A game with a story and not just a game that stops halfway through. No reason to support a story game like this in the future. 

Design a system that expands in the future. I have a system that can go on forever if you want to use it obsidian but I am only someone that did it without any funding and for the love it.

I don't think I understand. DLCs add plenty of gameplay, including new items, new type of item, they expanded ranger's tree and now added new subclasses for each class. In addition DLC include new enemies, new encounter design and include the hardest content in the game apart of the megabosses which were added for every one for three. 

Adding unending (or expanded) leveling up system only damages gameplay, as one of the main issues of the game is (or at least was, didn't play the base game in a while, maybe it's much better one) that there is too much mid level content and you tend to outlevel most of the stuff there, providing poor gameplay experience. Adding unending power creep would only hurt gameplay, not improve it. 
 

Unless you are one of those people who like Diablo and such, were you do boring stuff to get better stuff, to be able repeat boring stuff but on higher level. This is not Diablo, and it never aimed to be Diablo. I hope it will never aim to be Diablo. If there is something the game could use, please suggest it. I can't think of anything, really. There seem to be a desire for endless leveling up, without an idea what current levels actually lack. 

 

I haven't played Diablo since they said "it's hot down here" and you could run around in Bovine armor.

 

-Item collection? No sense of achievement and just down to luck finding them. Also collecting things is not as fun as achieving something. "Neat, another weapon to go with the other 20 legendary weapons I have already upgraded". That is Diablo right there or was in the original. 

-new subclasses. Already plenty of them and all of them will max out halfway through the game.

-As for damaging gameplay to level up. Create a system that works and does not break the game. Why should level 30 break a game when level 5 doesn't? Why have levels at all? As mention, BG 2 had freakish levels but the challenge, story and progression keep going.

- As Bleak and daven said (paraphrasing) "why not add epic level feats"? A one-off thing you can use in combat or in a conversation which is cool? 

 

Just give a sense of progression because banging your head on a new set of armor over and over just does your head in.



#13
Erik Dirk

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Biggest question is why hasn't Obsidian already created a completionist god challenge where you need say 90% possible xp

Alternatively reduce accuracy and deflection per level and add them back on for level 20-40 that way you still get to play with your high level abilities, but still get a sense of progression after level 20

Edited by Erik Dirk, 31 December 2018 - 07:41 PM.


#14
asnjas

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You guys crack me up.

If i gave you a ton of money to create a game, your paycheck is riding on the line and you need everything to succeed as mich as possible, you going to lean towards making people happy by giving them what they enjoy. You guys are only considering some game principles and art theory and not business.

Things change even games and what people enjoy about them. 20 year old games do not have all the answers. I loved morrowind and, graphics aside, there is plenty i feel would not carry over well to new games.

#15
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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you going to lean towards making people happy by giving them what they enjoy.


problem is crpg fans enjoy nothing and are never happy. Ud spread more joy by manufacturing pharmaceuticals rather than games.

#16
protopersona

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you going to lean towards making people happy by giving them what they enjoy.


problem is crpg fans enjoy nothing and are never happy. Ud spread more joy by manufacturing pharmaceuticals rather than games.

 

That's the dichotomy of groups really, two extreme factions under one label. In this case, fans of RPGs looking for empowerment, and fans of narrative agency. The first group wants powerful builds, advancement systems with plenty of choice, and the ability to demonstrate mastery of the game's systems. The second group wants the freedom to build the story they want, the world to react to that story, and the feeling of something greater than the individual parts. Pleasing both of those groups in a single game is genuinely hard.


Edited by protopersona, 01 January 2019 - 12:16 AM.


#17
uuuhhii

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never understand why anyone want higher level

20 are clearly the best number to end with


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#18
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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Id say the divisions more between those who want to be enabled and those who want to be challenged.

As im more of an artsy type, im glad we have the systems enthusiasts offering explanations and critique. I dont feel im competing with them for priority. If anything, i benefit when obs cater to them.

#19
Kaylon

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They should add a new Berath's blessing - increase lvl cap to 30 and another Magran's Challenge - gain only 50% of the normal xp. That way everyone would be pleased...  ;)



#20
Bleak

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You guys crack me up.

If i gave you a ton of money to create a game, your paycheck is riding on the line and you need everything to succeed as mich as possible, you going to lean towards making people happy by giving them what they enjoy. You guys are only considering some game principles and art theory and not business.

Things change even games and what people enjoy about them. 20 year old games do not have all the answers. I loved morrowind and, graphics aside, there is plenty i feel would not carry over well to new games.

 

If only someone gave me a ton of money so that I could get in the industry - it's impossible in my country and I'm stuck on working on boring-ass asp.net applications. :'(

 

True - and there are so many things we plebs don't know, such as the details about how they used their resources and what they had available - for example one may complain about the ship battle system, but the alternative would be it not being implemented at all because of the lack (or mismanagement, who knows) of resources. 

 

I won't claim to know what is prudent, but design decisions to popularize and renovate a genre are tricky at best and at the same time there are a myriad of other factors which will affect how it sells. You have to make as many people happy as possible yes, but you can't be too hang up on making as many people happy as possible because that will compromise your vision eventually.

 

 

 

you going to lean towards making people happy by giving them what they enjoy.


problem is crpg fans enjoy nothing and are never happy. Ud spread more joy by manufacturing pharmaceuticals rather than games.

 

That's the dichotomy of groups really, two extreme factions under one label. In this case, fans of RPGs looking for empowerment, and fans of narrative agency. The first group wants powerful builds, advancement systems with plenty of choice, and the ability to demonstrate mastery of the game's systems. The second group wants the freedom to build the story they want, the world to react to that story, and the feeling of something greater than the individual parts. Pleasing both of those groups in a single game is genuinely hard.

 

 

I would never have one without the other. These go hand in hand in crpgs anyway. The gripe lies elsewhere. It's not that Deadfire hasn't done a good job doing both - it has, no matter  what complaints we see in the forums about particular areas of the game. 

 

They should add a new Berath's blessing - increase lvl cap to 30 and another Magran's Challenge - gain only 50% of the normal xp. That way everyone would be pleased...   ;)

 
Abilities requiring rest and a meal changed the game for me. Too bad the game is not balanced around it - early/mid casters are genuinely terrible. I always found it annoying that there were some per encounter and some per rest abilities. I always also enjoyed the impactful DnD spells that don't miss, but you need some resource management to maintain. 
 
Solo challange improved the QOL of my solo playthroughs.
 
I modded the xp in the solo challenge I currently play to ~50% and it feels good so far. It would important though that to be dictated by the game, because I don't know whether that reduction will get me to the cap in a completionist playthrough.

Edited by Bleak, 01 January 2019 - 05:10 AM.






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