The future of Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny

[EveryThorn]

On 1/5/2021 at 11:54 PM, Ace of Spades said:

No I think he is on to something. Avowed is not a proper successor. Its just set in the same world but the story is completely independent from POE. Why would Josh stated that POE 3 would happen only if they are excited for it??? Obsidian wont just gonna abandon the game that basically saved them from bankruptcy. I am pretty convinced that they will finish up the trilogy in the future

Avowed does not seem to be POE3, and while POE2 was a successful Figstarter, it did not sell well so painting a new look on the franchise (3rd person/1st person) to try to attract new buyers makes production sense.

I do think it's telling and makes me very skeptical about Avowed is Sawyer unwillingness to be involved (burnout is understandable, but it's weird to put distance between a world you basically created) and the project director is someone who wasn't even involved in the Pillars games at Obsidian.

[Boeroer]

He's not putting distance between that world - while you wrote your post he probably continued to write for the Pillars TTRPG.

Also - while he's not directing Avowed he said several times that he will give feedback during development. I wouldn't call that "unwillingness to be involved". 

[Tillbot87]

I personally dont believe we'll see PoE3. Games like that just dont bring in the big bucks so why would a company like Microsoft care? I am a bit lost regarding the whole "who works for whom and who owns what?" situation but unless the original team decides to turn to Kickstarter again I cant see a part three happening. Given the things mentioned above I dont think thats likely.

AND THAT REALLY SUCKS! I'd be willing to pay full price just for another DLC or expansion pack at this point. The setting would make this possible. Just expand the world map a little and fix some issues along the way. I always liked what Paradox is doing with Stellaris. That game is almost five years old now and still getting better.

[Boeroer]

I really doubt that Microsoft (who now owns Obsidian and therefore also the Pillars IP) would allow a Kickstarter campaign for PoE3.

The first hurdle for a PoE3: the devs must be willing to do it. After the release of Deadfire and the low sales numbers the mood was pretty gloomy.
But as I already wrote: several devs now came forth on Twitter and said they would be on board for a PoE3.
Maybe Josh Sawyer still wouldn't be willing to direct it (too bad), but as things like Beast of Winter shows: other devs can step in and still deliver a really nice RPG experience. Imo BoW was excellent and Josh Sawyer wasn't involved that much.

Then Microsoft would need to approve it and fund the development. As I said above they want a big portfolio - all kinds of different games - for the Game Pass program. Not all those games don't have to appeal to millions of players - as long as they don't burn money it's a win I guess. Deadfire could have been a lot cheaper if it didn't have Full VO and some quicksand-features like ship combat. And yet it broke even half a year ago or so (so it wasn't a commercial failure after all). Microsoft bought Obsidian in order to have more RPG expertise. Deadfire wasn't a huge financial success but broke even after all. Even such games can be a benefit for Game Pass. 

So while it still seems unlikely that we will see a PoE3 in the near future - mainly because Obsidian still really doesn't know what went wrong with Deadfire and seems hesitant to retry - it seems less unlikely than a year ago.     

Edited January 11, 2021 by Boeroer

[kanisatha]

I agree with @Boeroer, and so does the head of MS's games division who has said in interviews he needs a range of games for GamePass, not just a range in type of games but also in small versus big games because GamePass needs a constant supply of new games to keep subscribers happy.

[Boeroer]

I would be very happy with an episodic form of PoE3. I mean multiple smaller campaigns instead of a big long one. You'd have a rel. small main game with one starter episode and then you can buy whatever additional episodes sounds fun. A bit like the old Hero Quest tabletop game (which was fun!).
They wouldn't need to be played in a particular order (although maybe a certain level treshold would be good I guess). You wouldn't need such a huge team and once the main game's engine is set the teams could focus on story and quest designs and itemization and so on (see Deadfire DLCs). Also smaller teams could work parallel and it wouldn't be too risky to let somebody less experienced take the lead etc. Try something new...

Maybe that's a stupid idea, but atm it sounds rather nice to me until you convince be it's not.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by Boeroer

[Sanjid099]

On 1/11/2021 at 9:55 AM, Boeroer said:

I really doubt that Microsoft (who now owns Obsidian and therefore also the Pillars IP) would allow a Kickstarter campaign for PoE3.

The first hurdle for a PoE3: the devs must be willing to do it. After the release of Deadfire and the low sales numbers the mood was pretty gloomy.
But as I already wrote: several devs now came forth on Twitter and said they would be on board for a PoE3.
Maybe Josh Sawyer still wouldn't be willing to direct it (too bad), but as things like Beast of Winter shows: other devs can step in and still deliver a really nice RPG experience. Imo BoW was excellent and Josh Sawyer wasn't involved that much.

Then Microsoft would need to approve it and fund the development. As I said above they want a big portfolio - all kinds of different games - for the Game Pass program. Not all those games don't have to appeal to millions of players - as long as they don't burn money it's a win I guess. Deadfire could have been a lot cheaper if it didn't have Full VO and some quicksand-features like ship combat. And yet it broke even half a year ago or so (so it wasn't a commercial failure after all). Microsoft bought Obsidian in order to have more RPG expertise. Deadfire wasn't a huge financial success but broke even after all. Even such games can be a benefit for Game Pass. 

So while it still seems unlikely that we will see a PoE3 in the near future - mainly because Obsidian still really doesn't know what went wrong with Deadfire and seems hesitant to retry - it seems less unlikely than a year ago.     

You're right on the money! We've already seen what Obsidian's capable of doing. Grounded was developed by just fourteen developers, FOURTEEN!!!! And that was a big, open-world survival game. If they're able to do that, then they can sure as hell develop POE 3 with much less effort

Edited January 12, 2021 by Sanjid099

[Boeroer]

I guess so. THey also now know better which features to keep and which to drop (and not sink any money into) I guess. Theay also wouldn't need to enhance the graphics further nor reinvent the "mechanics wheel" like they did with Deadfire. The mechanics are pretty good now and you could just take the existing "engine", tweak it a bit (remove some inconsistencies) and basically do new DLCs (which not be calles that but you know what I mean). Should be a lot cheaper to produce - i guess?

[kanisatha]

On 1/11/2021 at 1:42 PM, Boeroer said:

I would be very happy with an episodic form of PoE3. I mean multiple smaller campaigns instead of a big long one. You'd have a rel. small main game with one starter episode and then you can buy whatever additional episodes sounds fun. A bit like the old Hero Quest tabletop game (which was fun!).
They wouldn't need to be played in a particular order (although maybe a certain level treshold would be good I guess). You wouldn't need such a huge team and once the main game's engine is set the teams could focus on story and quest designs and itemization and so on (see Deadfire DLCs). Also smaller teams could work parallel and it wouldn't be too risky to let somebody less experienced take the lead etc. Try something new...

Maybe that's a stupid idea, but atm it sounds rather nice to me until you convince be it's not.  

I've been advocating for something like this for years.

Btw, wasn't something like this the original idea behind NwN?

[Boeroer]

I just watched Josh's post mortem of Deadfire again and he said something about 3 DLCs vs. 1 big DLC: the overhead work and costs for launching multiple small DLCs was much higher than if you'd release one big DLC. So maybe our idea isn't that great after all (at least for devs).

[bringingyouthefuture]

There is one issue with a POE3 for Gamepass, I don't think POE1 or POE2 were very popular on console yeah?  I can't imagine trying to navigate POE1 with a controller, would rather be forced to play Tetris or Mario Kart against my younger brother for 24 hours straight.  Doesn't the new XBOX allow for keyboard and mouse I read somewhere? Sorry going off topic, but that could open up a whole new realm for Microsoft in terms of gaming consoles, and types of games but seems like a long shot.

I really like the idea of an episodic gamepass for POE3, an ongoing RPG world with new adventures that isn't and MMORPG ... they could even bring in guest writers.

In regards to POE2 and its sales, its strange how much I didn't enjoy the boat aspect, but did enjoy rolling around in the Kodiak in Wasteland 3 - if you compare the two I would say the boat map of POE2 didn't really bring the world to life.  Otherwise the game was good in so many ways, but it didn't pull all the elements together in the right ways, I think the boat made the world seem too one dimensional.

Otherwise, I think POE could do small changes to bring it up to speed in terms of feeling more modern, while also getting back to the roots of what made RPGs so much fun (not just IE rpgs).  First make the map rotate so you aren't fixed in one view.  Create more environment interaction, like for instance Solasta allows for lighting scones, requires torches, etc, they don't have to go as far as DOS2 or BG3, or try to introduce something groundbreaking, but RPG people love stuff like camping, having to eat food, wounds that can't be healed, anything to make the escape into another world feel more well real.  Maybe just create a good TB-mode along with the RTWP-mode, then everyone is happy!  And last of all, along with the challenging combat, I do still love a good puzzle, POE could do a little more to embed some hidden mysteries in the world.  It is the best combat still in terms of mechanics and strategy, but they can apply that thinking to outside of combat too.  Maybe just get rid of the overworld map completely and have the areas just connect to each other so it seems like a seamless environment.

Edited January 14, 2021 by bringingyouthefuture

[Tawmis]

I am hoping we see another Pillars of Eternity. I much prefer the first one over the second - mostly because the way the second one opens - it's pretty "urgent" to take care of the "walking statue" - so it seems odd when you sail around and pick up trivial quests like, "Can you drop off this letter at that island over there because I don't have the time?"
"Oh sure. I mean it's not like there's this world ending 500 foot statue just walking around. Let me go ahead and be your mail-person."

 

[Theonlygarby]

On 3/16/2021 at 11:00 PM, Tawmis said:

I am hoping we see another Pillars of Eternity. I much prefer the first one over the second - mostly because the way the second one opens - it's pretty "urgent" to take care of the "walking statue" - so it seems odd when you sail around and pick up trivial quests like, "Can you drop off this letter at that island over there because I don't have the time?"
"Oh sure. I mean it's not like there's this world ending 500 foot statue just walking around. Let me go ahead and be your mail-person."

 

This was also my only real issue with the game.  It actually makes sense on a second playthrough if you role play as someone who has no hope of stopping eothas.

[Dezeption]

Late for the party - but here goes!

I absolutely ADORED the PoE series. The first game is actually my favorite of all time - and that comes from someone who has been playing computer games since I was old enough to hold the computer mouse. *Literally.*

Thing is - I played both PoE and Deadfire for the first time *less than 6 months ago.* I do not have any real nostalgia associated with the products (although, I certainly feel nostalgic listening to PoE music tracks on YouTube), as I was late for the CRPG party overall and been playing everything from BG2-3 (EA), DA:O, DOS2, Tyranny, Pathfinder: Kingmaker and, of course, PoE since fall 2020. And, like I said, PoE was by *far* my favorite (not just among CRPGs, but OVERALL) - and that is although I sincerely enjoyed each and every one of these titles. My heart broke a little when I wrapped up the series to move on to Pathfinder: Kingmaker (I had the post-series depression for days).

It might be because I come from an ARPG-heavy background - with a lot of games like Diablo, Grim Dawn, some Path of Exile and Wolcen - but eveything about PoE(1) rubbed me the right way. The main plot felt personal, with a moderate sense of urgency instead of "yeah uhm, doomsday is near - but imma solve your pity squabbles anyways" (like stated in the comments above). I enjoyed the combat (despite having a poor history with RtwP since DA:O that really had me struggling), I absolutely adored the available voice acting and I would any day prefer that kind of quality over full VO, I loved *each and every single one* of the companions of PoE(1), the music was so beyond next level that I have an entire playlist dedicated to Justin Bell, and I did every single companion quest line during my very first playthrough. Cannot say I did the same for Deadfire.

Deadfire was a good game in many aspects - especially regarding combat (and multi-classing <3), the small "book"-events that even included individual characteristics of the companions (loved these sooo much!), well written romances (although disappointing endings to them, imo), continued amazing companion interactions (their monologues that pop up during quests and events) - and of course, yet more amazing music! ... But I also experienced a lot of issues with Deadfire that never occurred to me in the first game. Like the very long intervals of dialogue silence during side quests (as companion dialogues only would pop up after progressing the main story) - which lead to the remarkable time of *13 hours real time dialogue silence while I wrapped up some side-content*. Then once I proceeded with the main story - ALL of my companions wanted to chatter at the same time (right in front of our enemies!!). That left me very annoyed and "un-immersed", and quite honestly? I struggled picking up the immersion in general after that (this must've been around 30ish hours in). The ending also left a rather sour taste in my mouth - and without giving any spoilers I just felt like I didn't get the option to explain my reasoning to Eothas properly and that the game read my motivation all wrong. I mean - I felt like my choice of action (and reasoning) was anything but unique and mind blowing (judging by previous commentary), yet the writers did not seem to account for it at all - although they included passages that were much more complicated / elaborate (which is a good thing! I just wish they would have any reasonable response for people in my seat). Either way - the way Eothas interpreted my actions, and (more importantly) the lack of proper explanation-options from my side had me salty for WEEKS!

Anyways, back on the main subject - I also watched the "Breaking the mold"-presentation and read many of the interviews with Sawyer - and they break my heart. It saddens me to see Sawyer's apparent disappointment in a, imo, not just great but FANTASTIC game series. I remain hopeful for a PoE3 - and I'd be willing to wait more than 10 years if that is necessary. HOWEVER, I only want PoE3 if the developers come back to it with the same love and effort that radiated throughout Pillars of Eternity (1). Otherwise, I'd prefer them to leave the two games as they are and have the developers move on to something else that they can properly fill with genuine love and attention - no matter how saddened I'd be.

I get that the investments require success because... Well, companies need money to not bankrupt. Especially since they nowdays are with Microsoft that really want to maximize their profits. But I really, really, really wish that the developers could see PoE2 not for what it became (which is not a bad game by any standard, even if it did not reach their expectations), but rather - the absolutely AMAZING game that it could develop into if they just gave it some time, love and thought. :[ I also very much hope that Obsidian realize that a huge blame for the poor start was due to limited marketing! I would have bought the game in a heartbeat, had I known about it at the time... But alas - I did not, and I arrived many years later as a result. Deadfire might not have been perfect - but nothing will ever be when you choose to experiment with new techniques and get rushed the way they did. It was overall a great game - and more importantly, it pawed a good path for a PoE3 with the data that you acquired from the successes and failures of Dreadfire.  Sorry for the long post - I just feel very passionate about the entire series as they, imo, make the best CRPGs in the market (from someone with no nostalgic bias :] ).

Edited June 24, 2021 by Dezeption

[Eydn]

I would love to play a Tyranny sequel. It was one of those games that I bought twice: I have it on my shelf, where it stands produly near my Baldur's Gate Complete Collection Box, and second time I bought it on GoG. Tyranny made something really awesome: it made me feel kickass as a mage and this guy, who is on top of his huge tower and can... you know, do certain stuff to enemies. That was just power fantasy done right and I wish I could do something more in that world. Unfortunately there will probably never be a sequel, so I go the ending that I've wanted, calmed the situation and... well... I'm waiting for your move Overlord.

While I think that PoE 1 was better than PoE 2 I would definately like to see another game that could end the story of the Watcher. Maybe they could keep leveling system (it was really good in my opinion), multiclassing, combat and slightly improve them. Graphics were great in PoE 2, so I wouldn't ask for more in that regard... but maybe some darker tone or also some little improvements? Anyway the thing that I'd like the most would be a better, more interesting story than that one in last game. It wasn't as good as PoE 1... and the same can be said about companions (with few exceptions) and their quests. I think taking what was great in PoE 2 and in PoE 1 and improving the story and companions would make another game really awesome. Maybe one day it will happen.

The thing is, where we go now? The Living Lands are interesting on paper, but if Avowed will take place there, I don't think they would choose the same location here. So what is left? Aedyr? That could be interesting, as we could see how this country, that we hear about so much, really looks like. Also I wonder how people there would respond to Watcher and his abilities.

Other option could be The White That Wends. If some part of this land are more civilized and other sticks to tradition, that could be interesting to see. Besides seeing some hardcore pale elfs with beards and axes would have been awesome.

There is also Old Valia, Ixamitl Plains or even Readceras that we could see and visit. I just really hope that this story will have part 3 which will resolve everything. We didn't got KotOR 3 (and I think Obsidian had some plans for it), so let's hope the same will not happen to Pillars of Eternity.

[PIP-Clownboy]

Obsidian doesn't own Tyranny so talking about this is pointless. 

POE 3 would sell as long they dump the Watcher narrative (sorry but POE2 ending is bad writing). Move on. Make a fun BG-esque game and people will buy it. Don't overthink it. 

[tooponn]

I desperately want another Pillars game and would crowdfund it again happily. I know Deadfire wasn't a smash success - but it will have legs. It will stick around on Steam and people will buy it and play it - because people are always picking up old RPGs on steam sales and whatnot, and it's such a brilliant game - really the best of its class.

[tooponn]

The thing is, where we go now? The Living Lands are interesting on paper, but if Avowed will take place there, I don't think they would choose the same location here. So what is left? Aedyr? That could be interesting, as we could see how this country, that we hear about so much, really looks like. Also I wonder how people there would respond to Watcher and his abilities.

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