The future of Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny

[Melusina]

that sounded a little harsh, as we don't know what caused low deadfire sales. I like isometric view, but FPS is definitely not adequate.

[Zafar1981]

12 hours ago, Melusina said:

that sounded a little harsh, as we don't know what caused low deadfire sales. I like isometric view, but FPS is definitely not adequate.

The isometric view only appeals to likes of us who had played the crpgs in the 90's. People who started playing RPG from Fallout 3 to onward like 3rd person or 1st person games.

Its not bad to bring a change to the series as first two Fallout games were isometric and Fallout 3 was a full 3D with both 1st and 3rd person camera.

I could be wrong but in my view games like POE will do great in 3rd person camera prospective gameplay. 

[algroth]

On 11/9/2019 at 2:28 PM, Melusina said:

Why is everybody talking about FPS, Isometric or Dragon Age?

 

Why not something like Witcher 3 or NWN 2, or even like original NWN, but with better graphics?

 

FPS wouldn't work in this kind of game, you will need to see range of spells and stuff. There was FPS mage game called Lichtdome and you couldn't see your spell range because of FPS

Truth to be told, Obsidian maybe made NWN2, but somehow dropped the ball on POE. POE felt too slow because devs don't know that RTwP isn't  faux turn based - it's Real Time *with* pause where you don't press pause every one second. That way of playing is just issue command while paused then let AI partially handle the rest while you control one or multiple characters in *real time*. You're supposed to *let it go* while fighting.

I have to say, Pillars didn't feel slow for me at all, and I found the combat to be quite enjoyable which is way more than I can say about Neverwinter Nights 2. The combat in the latter is atrocious.

[MedicineDan]

I would be good to throw a few hundred dollars at another Pillars game.  If I had faith they'd do justice to Deadfire, I might even invest a few thousand for whatever inn or other customer content.  I wouldn't do it myself.  I'd just tell them the names of my many dead family members and ask them to make a respectable tribute to them.  Not being rich, I couldn't offer millions of dollars.  *sad*

[Melusina]

11 hours ago, Zafar1981 said:

The isometric view only appeals to likes of us who had played the crpgs in the 90's. People who started playing RPG from Fallout 3 to onward like 3rd person or 1st person games.

Its not bad to bring a change to the series as first two Fallout games were isometric and Fallout 3 was a full 3D with both 1st and 3rd person camera.

I could be wrong but in my view games like POE will do great in 3rd person camera prospective gameplay. 

Fallout was a SHOOTER!

[Wormerine]

11 hours ago, Zafar1981 said:

The isometric view only appeals to likes of us who had played the crpgs in the 90's. People who started playing RPG from Fallout 3 to onward like 3rd person or 1st person games.

Its not bad to bring a change to the series as first two Fallout games were isometric and Fallout 3 was a full 3D with both 1st and 3rd person camera.

If PoE were to move to single character control system it would fundamentally change what kind of game it is. If Fallout1&2 you controlled only one character. PoE is group tactics game and those simply don’t work well without top down view. FPS fallout has still potential to be a fallout game, but PoE - not so. 

its not like top down games don’t sell. XCOMs were doing well. divinities did well. Disco Elysium seems to be doing. PoE1 did well. For some reason PoE2 didn’t. 

[Skarpen]

14 hours ago, Zafar1981 said:

The isometric view only appeals to likes of us who had played the crpgs in the 90's

Doesn't explain why Deadfire sold bad. First one sold ok and it was a blast on Kickstarter. So were other games like Original Sin, Shadowrun and Wasteland series and others. Maybe there were external reasons not about the game itself? Did the first one delivered what was promised? Did Avellone leaving Obsidian and informing about how they treat employees played a part? Did the "inapropriate" joke removal from first game rubbed fans the wrong way?

 

[BrokenMask]

Pathfinder Kingmaker also did well despite bugs and complaints and all.

I think another reason for it might actually have been competition. Divinity 2 and Pillars of Eternity 2 were released around same time and later in POE2's life cycle the dlcs were competing with Kingmaker instead.

BTW, just to ask, is it just me, or do CRPGs have unusual amount of fans of genre who love arguing about how their favourite game is best in genre? Like you don't see lot of point and click or horror fans be like "You shouldn't play that game, this one is much better!" meanwhile you can't go to divinity, poe or kingmaker steam without someone being like "this is much better than other games" or "those games are much better than this game"

[kanisatha]

I think the core problem for the PoE games was that they were based on appealing to the nostalgia of people who had played the IE games 20 years ago. As such they were designed to appeal to that previous generation of gamers rather than the current generation of gamers. But even appealing to the nostalgia of the previous generation did not work because (a) nostalgia is likely to appeal only once and not a second time for a sequel, and (b) nostalgia is about remembering your experiences from a long time ago in a positively-biased way such that even when someone makes a new game using that same old formula you come away saying to yourself: "Well I don't like this, because this is NOT how I remember those old games."

By contrast, Larian took a very different approach to their D:OS games. They made D:OS1 specifically to appeal to the current new generation of gamers, and then improved on that formula further in the sequel. So what appeals to the current generation? I would argue such things as availability on consoles, fancy 3D graphics, full VO, (combat) mechanics that are easy to figure out and intuitive to use, and systems that are not complex and without an excessive number of choices. But most importantly of all, being able to play in co-op/multiplayer mode. Many of these things are exactly what the grognards hate but for younger gamers they are a must, especially for those who are coming to these games with little or no prior experience with RPGs or complex D&D-like games.

My expectation is that there will NOT be a PoE3. Instead, there will be a reboot of the Pillars franchise with a completely new game whose design will start with multiplayer and consoles. Then, it will have high-end 3D graphics, full VO, and likely be third-person perspective. Finally, the systems and mechanics from the PoE games will be significantly streamlined and simplified so that people who are not hardcore RPG gamers can still dive right into the game and easily figure out how everything works, what all the numbers mean, where you don't have an overwhelming number of options to consider and weigh against one another when deciding what you want to do in a particular combat situation, and so on.

[ShadySands]

2 hours ago, BrokenMask said:

BTW, just to ask, is it just me, or do CRPGs have unusual amount of fans of genre who love arguing about how their favourite game is best in genre? Like you don't see lot of point and click or horror fans be like "You shouldn't play that game, this one is much better!" meanwhile you can't go to divinity, poe or kingmaker steam without someone being like "this is much better than other games" or "those games are much better than this game"

I can't say for sure since I don't hang out much elsewhere but I doubt it's all that much different. I play a lot of sports games and there isn't much, if any, competition in that space so people argue about which year had the best entry.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by ShadySands

[Melusina]

Pathfinder fans on it's steam forums complain a lot about turn based vs real time and yes, they are totally unfamiliar with *let it go* playstyle.

 

I got impression people thought Pathfinder is turn based because you have party members, like in those JRPGS.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Melusina

[GhostofAnakin]

Haven't played Deadfire yet, so no clue why it struggled financially.  Hopefully they're still going to make a PS4 version, as that's solely what I play games on these days.

[kanisatha]

18 hours ago, Melusina said:

I got impression people thought Pathfinder is turn based because you have party members

This seems to be the general view of TB fans, that any party-based RPG must of course be TB. There's zero logic to it, but that's the line that gets pushed. The overwhelming majority of negative reviews on Steam for both the PoE games and P:K are some varient of: it's RTwP so it's a horrible game.

[pesadelo]

I would love Poe 3 .

[Tencatta]

I'd love another Poe 3 as well although Avowed seems to be it

[Namutree]

This is an old thread, but I'll opine anyway:

Regarding why PoE 2 wasn't a big success-

A) Pillars of Eternity is a good game BUT.... The early version of the game was a buggy, unbalanced mess. That's all in the past now, but for many people, that's their only impression of the game.

 

B) For as much as it was sold as an IE successor, especially Baldur's Gate, it really didn't live up to what was promised. Per-encounter abilities, no kill xp, "disengagement mechanic" that weakens the RTS elements, fairly linear game progression (Most areas were locked off until after you get your stronghold for example). Heck even enemy balance philosophy was really different (no immunities in enemies until later patches. Interesting note: Patches that improve the game make it more like the IE games). You burn people, you lose them.

 

C) This is the biggest issue: Poor mod support. Good mod support is really important for a game like this, and should have been a stretch goal. Mods keep the community interested, engaged, and excited.

[Tencatta]

On 10/16/2020 at 8:57 PM, Namutree said:

This is an old thread, but I'll opine anyway:

Regarding why PoE 2 wasn't a big success-

A) Pillars of Eternity is a good game BUT.... The early version of the game was a buggy, unbalanced mess. That's all in the past now, but for many people, that's their only impression of the game.

 

B) For as much as it was sold as an IE successor, especially Baldur's Gate, it really didn't live up to what was promised. Per-encounter abilities, no kill xp, "disengagement mechanic" that weakens the RTS elements, fairly linear game progression (Most areas were locked off until after you get your stronghold for example). Heck even enemy balance philosophy was really different (no immunities in enemies until later patches. Interesting note: Patches that improve the game make it more like the IE games). You burn people, you lose them.

 

C) This is the biggest issue: Poor mod support. Good mod support is really important for a game like this, and should have been a stretch goal. Mods keep the community interested, engaged, and excited.

Pillars seemed to get most of its support because of the promise of "nostalgia" as some put it.

I don't think its quality hurt the game's sales, but may have hurt Deadfire, especially if people hadn't bothered or wanted to finish Pillars 1 first and didn't want more of the same. Why play Deadfire if you didn't like playing POE1 that you purchased and likely didn't refund? (I'm not even sure you can refund games on Kickstarter.)

I don't think mod support would have helped a ton, but it would have helped some.

There was another thread about why POE2 sold so poorly in the POE2 forum, though, which I liked (I'll see if I can find it and link it).

[Sanjid099]

For my take, the reason why Deadfire sold poorly is due its lack of marketing. 

DOS II generated its crowdfunding from kickstarter, the most prominent crowdfunding platform in the world. This allowed the game to generate a wider exposure to the gaming community. On top of that, the turn-based system in the game appealed to a wider array of gamers.

Kingmaker was able to attain success due to the fact that the Pathfinder franchise was already famous, and this game provided a long return to the beloved franchise.

Sadly, Deadfire hosted it's crowdfunding in fig.co, a platform that is unknown to a majority of gamers. The Pillars franchise is also fairly new, so it doesn't hold the same pedigree as Pathfinder, and the RTWP system is off-putting to a lot of people.

However, with Microsoft's endless pockets of money and Elder Scrolls' hiatus, I truly believe Avowed can achieve the success it deserves. It'll probably even encourage some gamers to try out Pillars I and II similar to how the Witcher Netflix adaptation caused the Witcher 3 to increase in sales. That might just encourage Obsidian to make a Pillars III.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Sanjid099

[ComradeYellow]

20 hours ago, Sanjid099 said:

However, with Microsoft's endless pockets of money and Elder Scrolls' hiatus, I truly believe Avowed can achieve the success it deserves. It'll probably even encourage some gamers to try out Pillars I and II similar to how the Witcher Netflix adaptation caused the Witcher 3 to increase in sales. That might just encourage Obsidian to make a Pillars III.

LOL I wouldn't count on that.  Witcher 3 is a bit different than niche titles like Pillars.

Let 'em die.  No sense kicking a dead horse.

[Tencatta]

On 1/3/2021 at 5:26 PM, ComradeMaster said:

LOL I wouldn't count on that.  Witcher 3 is a bit different than niche titles like Pillars.

Let 'em die.  No sense kicking a dead horse.

Yeah, (i) watching a TV series and getting inspired to play the game that's a lot like what you just watched vs. (ii) playing a game then going back to an earlier, cruder (isometric) version is more comparable to the Fallout 3 scenario and then gauging how many people got curious to try F1 and F2 (I doubt it was much).

Witcher is also just more accessible than Eternity was, and even if it has generic tropes, it still manages to find an identity because it has a protagonist for people to relate to (plus, it doesn't hurt that Henry Cavill is the face for Geralt on Netflix, which is a huge plus, I imagine).

Edited January 5, 2021 by Tencatta

[ComradeYellow]

7 hours ago, Tencatta said:

(I doubt it was much).

It wasn't.  Fallout 1-2 fanboys were so staking hope on the premise that newcomers playing Fallout 3 would somehow play the originals and turn into.... Fallout 1-2 fanboys like them.  Never happened.   Those who did -by and large- simply didn't care for it.

The dead horse theory is still alive and well it seems.

[Sanjid099]

22 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

It wasn't.  Fallout 1-2 fanboys were so staking hope on the premise that newcomers playing Fallout 3 would somehow play the originals and turn into.... Fallout 1-2 fanboys like them.  Never happened.   Those who did -by and large- simply didn't care for it.

The dead horse theory is still alive and well it seems.

Well circumstances are different now. Josh stated that Pillars III will happen only if they're excited to make it, and they don't require any external validation for development to happen.

Source: https://gamingbolt.com/pillars-of-eternity-3-will-happen-only-if-obsidian-are-excited-about-making-it-says-series-director

Currently they're burned out after making Pillars I and II, but give it time and they'll be inclined to return to the franchise once again. Now that Obsidian is owned by Microsoft, you have to understand that they're not creating games in the pursuit of sales, they're making games with the viewpoint of diversifying gamepass, which is Microsoft's main focus. Gamepass already has a diverse array of games which is attracting gamers of all genres. Games like Pillars is quite rare since it's such a niche genre, but if Microsoft is trying to attract all types of gamers into gamepass, then they'll definitely allow Obsidian to make Pillars III in hopes of attracting the audience of isometric rpgs. Obsidian possesses the tools and the finances to create Pillars III, so they already have a head start. I'm not saying it's guaranteed, but never say never.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Sanjid099

[ComradeYellow]

55 minutes ago, Sanjid099 said:

Currently they're burned out after making Pillars I and II, but give it time and they'll be inclined to return to the franchise once again. 

Avowed is set in the Pillars universe and could be considered the proper successor.

They may make another niche isometric game on a small budget but don't expect it to be any kind of remarkable success or anything.

Edited January 6, 2021 by ComradeMaster

[Ace of Spades]

3 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Avowed is set in the Pillars universe and could be considered the proper successor.

They may make another niche isometric game on a small budget but don't expect it to be any kind of remarkable success or anything.

No I think he is on to something. Avowed is not a proper successor. Its just set in the same world but the story is completely independent from POE. Why would Josh stated that POE 3 would happen only if they are excited for it??? Obsidian wont just gonna abandon the game that basically saved them from bankruptcy. I am pretty convinced that they will finish up the trilogy in the future

Edited January 6, 2021 by Ace of Spades
grammar

[Boeroer]

Since there's GamePass they don't necessarily need to only develop big games. Microsoft wants lots of content for GamePass which might lead to more small(ish) games being developed. Fingers crossed!