Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[thelee]

 

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

Tactician with crossbow or arbalest modal. Just shoot and regain discipline. 

 

 

of all the ways to exploit the tactician's bonus you chose one of the slowest

[Sergeant Arch Dornan]

 

 

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

Tactician with crossbow or arbalest modal. Just shoot and regain discipline. 

 

 

of all the ways to exploit the tactician's bonus you chose one of the slowest

 

...and laziest. Of course, this is unoptimal way, but it's funny how easy discipline can be regained with tactician subclass. Especially it looks silly in game with Woedica's Challenge.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sergeant Arch Dornan

[braab]

One question I have for those of you testing heroes is how does the Arcane Archers Imbue abilities interact with Soul Whip for a multiclass Seer? Do the "spells" attached to these abilities generate focus?

[Boeroer]

Nope.

[mant2si]

I don't understand why they can't concentrate on balancing existed sub-classes

I especially disappointed about Rangers, they even didn't add classical abilities like explode/poison/cold arrows, so what the difference between Arcane Archer sub-class and this build https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103542-single-class-build-arcana-archer-ranger/ ? 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by mant2si

[Ophiuchus]

I don't understand why they can't concentrate on balancing existed sub-classes

 

I especially disappointed about Rangers, they even didn't add classical abilities like explode/poison/cold arrows, so what the difference between Arcane Archer sub-class and this build https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103542-single-class-build-arcana-archer-ranger/ ? 

 

 

I agree. Mage Slayer and Shattered Pillar are still a mess.

[thelee]

I especially disappointed about Rangers, they even didn't add classical abilities like explode/poison/cold arrows,

 

What "classical" RPGs have you been playing?

 

 

 

I don't understand why they can't concentrate on balancing existed sub-classes

 

I especially disappointed about Rangers, they even didn't add classical abilities like explode/poison/cold arrows, so what the difference between Arcane Archer sub-class and this build https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103542-single-class-build-arcana-archer-ranger/ ? 

 

 

I agree. Mage Slayer and Shattered Pillar are still a mess.

 

 

Mage Slayer and Corpse-Eater. I actually don't think Shattered Pillar is that bad, definitely not as troubled as those two barbarian subclasses.

Edited December 4, 2018 by thelee

[Anoregon]

My only problem with Shattered Pillar is that it's melee only. Not from balance concerns, but thematic ones. I'd love to make a bow-wielding monk character, but no variety of monk really supports it. Wound generation favors being in melee.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Anoregon

[guildwriter]

I will say I'm having a hell of a time getting Brilliant Tactician to proc.  

 

It seems like if you are immune to flanked through something like Gipon but are technically flanked because of enemy positioning or Distracted or some other perception affliction, then Brilliant Tactician doesn't proc.  It doesn't feel like it's supposed to be intended but I can't be sure.

Edited December 5, 2018 by guildwriter

[Exanos]

 

You can enchant Spine of Thicket Green to be +3 PL Plant / +3 PL Beast, so I think it's potentially better than the Pike?  I think Ancient gives you +1 PL, so you'd be at +4 Beast / +4 Plant. 

 

I forgot about Spider Silk Robe doing + Poison PL, good call (though it was nerfed down).  I don't know how Poison damage scales with Alchemy, but I think it still does even though it the scaling apparently was nerfed down a few patches ago.  \\

 

Some of the key Druid spells like Venom Bloom are coded as both Plant and Poison (I think, they say things like Counter: Antidode - which I think means they are still considered Poison keyword), so maybe the PL bonuses even stack among themselves?    I coudn't see any similar keywords for the Rogue powers like Pernicious or even Withering?

 

 

Unsure if that's the case for the Spine as I think most +PL boosting has been nerfed down to +2 across the board.  The reason why I'd use the pike is to have the pierce hole covered as well as having the +resto stat buff on the spine.  Also Wicked Beast has some other abilities that I think could be useful and more offensive oriented than the staff.  Also I like poking things.  And being special because no one uses that weapon.  

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Poison didn't affect Pernicious, but it hasn't been uncommon for Obsidian to fail to keyword things correctly.  One way or another I need to do a lot of testing to see what does or does not work.  And I need to see if I can make Assassin/Tactician work for infinite restealth backstabs. 

 

Yes I like Assassins.

 

 

Downloading the beta. I wonder what is the most efficient DoT rotten druid :

 

1) Single class (+PL) Ancien druid (+1PL Plant/Beast) + nature godlike (+1PL) + Spine thicket green (+3 Plant/beast) + amulet (+1PL/rest) + Elevation Potion (+PL)

-> should lead to epic venomblood / plague of insect...

-> Firestag / Aspect of Galawain : does they get upgraded by +PL (except duration) ? (never toyed with them yet)

 

2) Multiclass hellwalker (+MIG/INT) / ancien druid+1PL Plant/Beast) + nature godlike (+1PL) + Spine thicket green (+3 Plant/beast) + amulet (+1PL/rest) + Elevation Potion (+PL)

-> Hight might/int lead to heavydot but :

-> spell gain more slowly

-> no lvl 8/9 spell (is it really a con?)

 

Any though?

[Gregorovich]

I have a plan:

 

1. Everybody tells here that Mage Slayer and Corpse Eater are broken, overpowered, unstoppable etc.

2. Devs read this an try to nerf them.

3. As the subclasses are already weak, the devs accidentally buff them.

4. We see them buffed, but say that it's impossible to play them now to ensure the success.

[brasilgringo]

 

 

You can enchant Spine of Thicket Green to be +3 PL Plant / +3 PL Beast, so I think it's potentially better than the Pike?  I think Ancient gives you +1 PL, so you'd be at +4 Beast / +4 Plant. 

 

I forgot about Spider Silk Robe doing + Poison PL, good call (though it was nerfed down).  I don't know how Poison damage scales with Alchemy, but I think it still does even though it the scaling apparently was nerfed down a few patches ago.  \\

 

Some of the key Druid spells like Venom Bloom are coded as both Plant and Poison (I think, they say things like Counter: Antidode - which I think means they are still considered Poison keyword), so maybe the PL bonuses even stack among themselves?    I coudn't see any similar keywords for the Rogue powers like Pernicious or even Withering?

 

 

Unsure if that's the case for the Spine as I think most +PL boosting has been nerfed down to +2 across the board.  The reason why I'd use the pike is to have the pierce hole covered as well as having the +resto stat buff on the spine.  Also Wicked Beast has some other abilities that I think could be useful and more offensive oriented than the staff.  Also I like poking things.  And being special because no one uses that weapon.  

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Poison didn't affect Pernicious, but it hasn't been uncommon for Obsidian to fail to keyword things correctly.  One way or another I need to do a lot of testing to see what does or does not work.  And I need to see if I can make Assassin/Tactician work for infinite restealth backstabs. 

 

Yes I like Assassins.

 

 

Downloading the beta. I wonder what is the most efficient DoT rotten druid :

 

1) Single class (+PL) Ancien druid (+1PL Plant/Beast) + nature godlike (+1PL) + Spine thicket green (+3 Plant/beast) + amulet (+1PL/rest) + Elevation Potion (+PL)

-> should lead to epic venomblood / plague of insect...

-> Firestag / Aspect of Galawain : does they get upgraded by +PL (except duration) ? (never toyed with them yet)

 

You could add Helm of Grotto Deep (+2 Poison PL I think) if you are willing to give up Nature Godlike, and Spider Silk Robe (+2 Poison PL) .... because a few of the beast/plant spells are also keyworded to poison (counter:antidote) and it might buff them further, like Plague of Insects I think, Vile Thorns, and Venombloom?  Also if you stack Alchemy skill which apparently still affects poison damage, though I'm not sure how much ....

 

The thing with druid spells is once you get Great Malstrom, there's really no going back ...

On a solo druid I have a hard time figuring out how to build for survival and not let the long cast times get me down.

 

One thing to consider is that since there's only a few key plant/beast spells you want, go Lifegiver to also get free healing spell power picks and +2 heal PL, then supplement with the Beast/Plant/poison stuff.... not sure you need to go Ancient, or if it's worth it.

Edited December 5, 2018 by brasilgringo

[VeritasWaits]

Just did some quick testing and confirmed that Chanters gain +1 phrase from each tick of Brilliant. Ciphers gain +10 focus per tick, which doesn't seem to be affected by the total size of their focus pool (tested it once with a pool of 60 and once with a pool of 110).

 

Full caster multiclasses seem like a pretty busted combo with Tactitian, especially since you can use their various spells to help meet the conditions for maintaining the buff. I'm personally interested in a War Caller build that spams offensive invocations to bring back that Bladesinger/Duskblade vibe, especially combined with the All Classes mod to take the Stormspeaker subclass.

[VeritasWaits]

After some further testing of Tactitian I'm running into a lot of issues getting the passive to proc at all. Multiple combats in a row now I've flanked all enemies with no allies flanked with no results. I'm doing it the old fashioned way: basic character model positioning rather than spells, flanked immunity, etc just to make sure. Anyone have any insights on something I'm doing wrong before I flag it as a bug report?

[Boeroer]

Just flag it. If it's not understandable why it doesn't trigger then it's bad enough to justify a report.

 

Either the description is wrong or badly worded or the ability just doesn't work properly.

[Takkik]

Brilliant tactician is bugged right now, I reported a bug and a dev responded : the game keep track of entities that should be destroyed. Let's wait next update (release at this point?).

 

War caller with tactician isn't that great, because right now none of the early invocations interrupt.

 

When it come to subclass balance, they could rework all wizard ones too. Change the disadvantage or add more Oomph to the special abilities (perhaps more uniques spells).

[MaxQuest]

Just did some quick testing and confirmed that Chanters gain +1 phrase from each tick of Brilliant. Ciphers gain +10 focus per tick, which doesn't seem to be affected by the total size of their focus pool (tested it once with a pool of 60 and once with a pool of 110).

So as a summary, one tick of Brilliant inspiration gives:

- rogues, fighters, paladins, rangers, barbarians: +1 resource (guile, discipline, zeal, bond, rage)

- monks: +1 mortification, +1 wound

- ciphers: +10 focus

- chanters: +1 phrase

- wizard, druid, priest: +1 spell usage of random rank (just tested 5 minutes ago to be sure)

 

P.S. Multi-class characters in a way benefit from this twice.

P.P.S. It's weird that ciphers only get 10 focus, no matter how big their max focus is. By the time you get access to Brilliant inspiration, 10 focus is basically nothing.

Edited December 5, 2018 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

Random rank spell? Guess that says something about my spell-slinging habits! I must’ve been using the same 2-3 spells over and over every combat, which would explain my reliably getting them back every tick :D

 

EDIT: are you 100% on the Wound for Monks? I thought it was just Mortification but I’m AFK ATM and cannot test it.

Edited December 5, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Takkik]

Ah, so it was changed to 1 random spell usage. With all the balance change since release can be confusing sometime.

 

Brilliant is 'useless' for cipher (or could be great for the new psion). The problem is multiclassed cipher that can't cast brilliant on themself to retore their other class resource (old discussion).

 

multiclassed characters always got a resource advantage over single classed.

[MaxQuest]

Random rank spell? Guess that says something about my spell-slinging habits! I must’ve been using the same 2-3 spells over and over every combat, which would explain my reliably getting them back every tick :D

I didn't know of this change either. And I don't remember it being mentioned in patch notes.

I was even thinking to write a post about it being unfair for spellcasters to get half of their resources from just 1 tick, while other classes get only 1 resource.

 

Btw, the gain is 100% random. But it would be nice to check if the randomness is linear or not.

For example, I have also tried 7 times the following scenario: use rank 1 spell, use last rank spell. Get afflicted by Brilliance.

> 5 times I got the first rank spell first

> 2 times I got the last rank spell first

 

EDIT: are you 100% on the Wound for Monks? I thought it was just Mortification but I’m AFK ATM and cannot test it.

Not 100%)

Today I have tested only wizard, priest, cipher, fighter and chanter.

 

But during v1.0... iirc monk was gaining 1 mortification and 1 wound.

 

Brilliant is 'useless' for cipher (or could be great for the new psion).

It's bad even for psion. Use 70 focus and some time on cast and recovery, in order to get 20-30 focus back...

 

And do agree - not being able to cast that brilliant power on himself is weird.

I understand that this could be used as a limiting factor if self-brilliancing would be too strong, and also as incentive to bring a second cipher for cross-casting. But atm not only it's not OP, it's just not worth it at all.

Edited December 5, 2018 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

Hope Brilliant can be modded back to 1 spell of each level or I’ll be confined to only ever casting Salvation of Time from my Priest.

 

Does anybody have a backup of pre-4.0 files? If not, I’ll roll back when I’m home from my holiday.

[Takkik]

Hope Brilliant can be modded back to 1 spell of each level or I’ll be confined to only ever casting Salvation of Time from my Priest.

 

Does anybody have a backup of pre-4.0 files? If not, I’ll roll back when I’m home from my holiday.

 

Well as it is now it's more balanced with no caster classes. In it's current stat, they could brink it back in chanter spell like before.

[MaxQuest]

Hope Brilliant can be modded back to 1 spell of each level or I’ll be confined to only ever casting Salvation of Time from my Priest.

I do agree with Takkik that it is more balanced across classes as it is now.

At the same time, do think that 3s->6s tick nerf could be rolled back, since spellcasters are now in check.

 

Edit: or it could be left at 6s, but restore 2 of class resources. So it would be +2 for single classes and +1/+1 for multi classes.

 

Edit #2: I had a backup of v1.2 gamedatabundles somewhere. Will take a look on the weekend.

Edited December 5, 2018 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

Appreciate it’s more balanced this way, which is why I’m not advocating for the nerf to be rolled back—I just want to mod it back to what it was before for my personal enjoyment. I want to be able to always reliably extend all my buffs for the duration of each combat encounter.

[Takkik]

I would love an option or blessing that give to all characters an effect similar to brilliant (and that can stack with it). Every 6-10 sec all character regen resource like affected by brilliant inspiration. No more run out of resource during long fights.