A question about mages & grimoires

[daver]

I rarely ever play a mage, but always have one in my party, in this case Aloth.  So as he levels up (now level 9), I've chosen his spells based on what he has in his grimoire, so I don't have any duplicate spells.

 

But now we've found a better grimoire called Ninagauth's Teachings, which is a unique.  I love the spells in it, but unfortunately many of the early level spells are ones Aloth already knows.

 

So to successfuly use Ninagauth's grimoire, I'm going to have to respec Aloth so I don't have duplicate spells (and thus limiting my choices during combat)?

 

I don't mind switching grimoires so much, but I don't really like to have to retrain each time.  Seems like there should be a better way to adjust know spells to grimoires spells.

[Guest]

The mechanics in Deadfire changed in a way that is supposed to encourage grimoire swapping. Your options are:

 

1) metagame like crazy, picking all the grimoires you might use and then choosing spells at level up that won’t duplicate

2) multiclass, thereby reducing your dependency on grimoires, allowing you to pick one and build around that.

3) respec every time you find a grimoire you like (definitely possible, but potentially expensive and can’t be done in the middle of combat, ostensibly when grimoires would be swapped)

4) Let go of the compulsion to not have overlap and just use the grimoires you like

[anathanielh]

Typically, I select the skills I like best when levelling up, so no matter which grimoire I use, I have them (I switch grimoires often). Even with duplicates, I never felt I was gimped because I had the spells I liked at the very least.

 

I recommend you do the same if you don’t want to respec (Just pick spells that you either like the effects of or like visually)

[Boeroer]

Or you pick no spells at lvl up and only use grimoires for your spell selection. A bit tough choice for a single class wizard since there are not that many passives that make sense, but a nice approach for multiclass wizards.

 

I think (!) a Black Jacket/Wizard with Quick Switch can switch Grimoires without cooldown? Or not? Never checked this...

Edited July 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[try2handing]

What you should have done is not pick the spells already in the grimoire. Having the grimoire equipped means you will always have access to the spells in it. So if you learn two other spells, you will have access to four spells in total: the two you learn and the two in the grimoire.

 

Since lower levels have a lot of spells, the best thing to do is try to decide which ones you think are the most important, and learn them. This saves you the trouble of having to switch to the right grimoire to cast those spells. Then, equip a few grimoires in quick slots to have access to other spells that you think are also important.

 

Higher levels have only a few spells, so if you play like I did, equipping Aloth with 5 grimoires in total, you will have access to all spells in any level. From that point on, you will find that there isn't much point in picking one or two spells to learn, since you know that you already always have access to all spells anyway. Again, learning the spells yourself saves you the trouble of having to switch to the right grimoire, but it's not such a big deal.

Edited July 19, 2018 by try2handing

[Boeroer]

I just checked and a Black Jacket doesn't reduce the cooldown of switching grimoires. I also noticed that it isn't that long of a cooldown in the first place.

[Takkik]

I think the grimoire/wizard system miss something. That really encourage you to switch grimoire and take less spells while leveling, but at same time the big majority of the skill tree are about the spells that you can find in the grimoires. I find that the class don't fully embrass the grimoire system. If ignoring spells and using grimoire swap is an option, you need more way to spend your abilities points.

 

- They could implement a bonus when you select a spell (+1PL?)

- Add more passives so you have more interesting things to spend points (specialy when multiclassing). More specialisation bonus like the + 1pen for element or rapid casting. Perhaps passives like + xPL for conjure weapons (or other spells). I don't understand that they can't find some interesting caster passives that modify how you play them, like for the martial classes.

- Change the spell list / add some spells to the tree that you can't find in spell books.

- Give bonus to each spell books : snakeskin grimoire : +xPL poison spells. Flame & spark : +xPL for fire & electricity spells etc...

 

Spell selection and grimoires are overlaping system instead of being a complementary thing in my opinion. I don't get the feeling the wizard ability tree was built around the grimoire system, more that the grimoires are afterthough.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Takkik

[knownastherat]

OP, who admittedly rarely plays a mage, figured what the developers apparently could not: Deadfire grimoire mechanic encourages respecs.

[InsaneCommander]

Spells that you know and are in the grimoire should definitely have a bonus. Make it good enough and most people won't complain about the overlap. And even if it ends up too good, it would simply be another build option, trading variety for specialization.

[Takkik]

imagine taking a spell when leveling give it a bonus to PL (like just +1) and every grimoire got some passive bonus that focus on some spells. If I want be a poison wizard, I can select poison spells (they got a bonus) and get snakeskin grimoire (exemple +xPL to poison spells, or something more creative like a dot when using poison spell), I have a limited selection of spell (overlapping) but at sametime i'm specialised in a type of magic and be more effective with all poison spells.

 

You have the choice between be specialised or have acces to more spells but less powerfull.

 

I think the fact they dropped the trinket feature for all class gimped the grimoires. All classes should have access to trinkets that offer more options/specializations for all classes. Priest could get a focus that boost some spells or unlock a new one, druid could unlock new animal forms, have choice between boosting spellcasting or shapeshifting etc... Trinket in general could work like a specialization.

[Gary1986]

I use my wizards without grimoires.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Gary1986

[Boeroer]

Aaaand?

[daver]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.  It does seem like an odd design decision to me, but I'm just going to roll with it and adapt to the situation.  I did repsec Aloth, based on Ninagauths Teachings, but that's the last time I'm going to repec him based on a grimoire.  It seems like that would be futile to constantly repec, running in circles trying to find that "perfect" combination of chosen spells & grimoire spells.  I'm just going to choose those spells I really want to use, and keep all the grimoires I find, and match them as best I can to the situation.

 

I don't mind so much having fewer spells to work with, but I think that it changes the strategy of using a pure mage like Aloth, instead of being dependent upon spell use there is incentive to take more passive skills and pay more attention to weapons/armor/accessories & what occupies the quick slots.  In effect, I think it makes a mage be a bit more versatile than in POE1, which isn't a bad thing, it just takes some getting used to.  I think it also incourages multi-classing, but it would be hard to give up those high level spells.

[Psychevore]

Some spells can only be found in grimoires and not be taken on level up.

This is what I use them for.

[gkathellar]

I think the grimoire/wizard system miss something. That really encourage you to switch grimoire and take less spells while leveling, but at same time the big majority of the skill tree are about the spells that you can find in the grimoires. I find that the class don't fully embrass the grimoire system. If ignoring spells and using grimoire swap is an option, you need more way to spend your abilities points.

 

- They could implement a bonus when you select a spell (+1PL?)

- Add more passives so you have more interesting things to spend points (specialy when multiclassing). More specialisation bonus like the + 1pen for element or rapid casting. Perhaps passives like + xPL for conjure weapons (or other spells). I don't understand that they can't find some interesting caster passives that modify how you play them, like for the martial classes.

- Change the spell list / add some spells to the tree that you can't find in spell books.

- Give bonus to each spell books : snakeskin grimoire : +xPL poison spells. Flame & spark : +xPL for fire & electricity spells etc...

 

Spell selection and grimoires are overlaping system instead of being a complementary thing in my opinion. I don't get the feeling the wizard ability tree was built around the grimoire system, more that the grimoires are afterthough.

 

I like the general notion of increasing the wizard's grimoire dependence and focusing their ability selection around passives, and I think the fact that they didn't do so is mostly a continuity question. Wizards in the first game look as though they were intended to switch grimoires a whole bunch, but didn't end up that way because in practice four spells per level was more than enough and you could switch them between fights. An effort has been made to intensify that aspect in Deadfire, but at the same time, it seems like they were unwilling to commit to it entirely. I expect that's because people would have never stopped complaining about it.

Edited July 20, 2018 by gkathellar

[InsaneCommander]

Some spells can only be found in grimoires and not be taken on level up.

 

This is what I use them for.

 

I gave Aloth Ninagauth's grimoire and never changed again. Even these unique spells are not enough to remind me that I can change grimoires.

[knownastherat]

The idea that players (will) change grimoires is fundamentally flawed from where I sit. It needs to be confirmed by in-game data but it seems pretty obvious that players will likely not (want to), remember combinations provided by spell picks on level up, default grimoire and quick slot grimoires thus will settle for a single grimoire and adjust their spell picks accordingly. As I noted before, how this was not realized in beta and Q&A is beyond me. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by knownastherat

[Vitalis]

I think the more upsetting thing is that Ninagauth keeps getting his grimoire stolen, it's a wonder he remains an Archmage.

 

It's difficult to choose between Ninagauth's and Vaporous Wizardy. On one hand, you gain access to spells that you have no way of getting; and on the other, you gain bonus per encounter casts of your spells.

 

I'd say each "special" grimoire should provide a separate bonus besides the spells given, while reducing the amount of "regular" grimoires that drop.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Vitalis

[anathanielh]

No love for the Iron-Clasped Grimoire?

 

 

Draining missiles is dope.   

 

[Falk Schütze]

PoE1 wizards never had this problem, all spells availiable, increasing number of casts per level. A shame !

[Manveru123]

 

It's difficult to choose between Ninagauth's and Vaporous Wizardy. On one hand, you gain access to spells that you have no way of getting; and on the other, you gain bonus per encounter casts of your spells.

 

 

I use both. Start with Ninagauth, swap to Vaporous when I need an extra spell cast.

[daver]

I think the more upsetting thing is that Ninagauth keeps getting his grimoire stolen, it's a wonder he remains an Archmage.

 

It's difficult to choose between Ninagauth's and Vaporous Wizardy. On one hand, you gain access to spells that you have no way of getting; and on the other, you gain bonus per encounter casts of your spells.

 

I'd say each "special" grimoire should provide a separate bonus besides the spells given, while reducing the amount of "regular" grimoires that drop.

 

I like this idea that each "unique" grimoire should give an added benefit, outside of the spells, just by being equipped in the grimoire/trinket slot.  Like 1 extra cast per spell level, or even simpler things like +2 intel, or + 2 concentration, or 10% fast cast rate.  Just something to make them really unique outside of the spells they contain.

[anathanielh]

PoE1 wizards never had this problem, all spells availiable, increasing number of casts per level. A shame !

I still prefer Deadfire’s magic, despite it’s flaws. In the first game, despite having more potential casts, I never used them until bosses, which made me just drop my wizard altogether because it got boring to me. In DnD, vancian magic is good to me, I just didn’t like it in that game.

[gkathellar]

The idea that players (will) change grimoires is fundamentally flawed from where I sit. It needs to be confirmed by in-game data but it seems pretty obvious that players will likely not (want to), remember combinations provided by spell picks on level up, default grimoire and quick slot grimoires thus will settle for a single grimoire and adjust their spell picks accordingly. As I noted before, how this was not realized in beta and Q&A is beyond me. 

 

If you had something like "PoE Wizards: The Game," in which grimoire switching was a fundamental mechanic, it'd work. But as is, yeah, it's just an extra detail in a game where there's already a huge amount of information to absorb. It ends up as little other than a thing that some high-end builds or play strategies utilize.

[InsaneCommander]

For future playthroughs I'll check the wiki and see which grimoires I might want to use. Maybe I can change my spells in a way that I'll have the ones I like and get other from these grimoires. But it's much more likely that I'll have a build (missiles mage, ice wizard/druid...) and completely forget about them.