Finally some sales evidence

[Boeroer]

I found Tyranny was pretty awful. Although I liked certain aspects of it (setting mostly) the combat system was so bad that it gave me shivers. I don't think that was the reason for its failure though. I think the (perceived) lack of a hero you could sympathize with was the main reason - but that's only wild guessing.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[Verde]

why do so many people think sales indicates that theres something wrong with the game?

 

also one of the most sacred cows of rpgs is final fantasy so this stuff about "traditional fantasy" not selling is a huge laugh tbh but it is why the western canon of the genre is so unimaginitive and dreary. i wish pillars didnt even have elves dwarves or any of that borrowed tolkien/norse lore im tired of it

 

the market suddenly got crowded since poe1 and critics and social media started a fashionable sneer about pausable real time a mechanic that ironicaly only exists because the fashionable sneer was against turn based in the 90s

I'm wondering how FF13 and 15 sold compared to the rest, considering their sub-standard quality.

[Clawdius_Talonious]

I mean, a lot of people I know bounced right off of Pillars of Eternity. People I'd have expected to love it just didn't get into it, I expected to enjoy it but I absolutely loved it. Deadfire was... more freeform and exploration oriented, which was good, but the balance was tuned way too low to start which got some bad reviews or people saying to wait. And other people wrote middling reviews for story elements, which can be a big draw to early game sales (stories that are able to be spoiled means you need to experience them yourself early.)

 

I feel like the problem with a game like Deadfire is, a ton of people who want to play it probably just aren't going to buy it until it's 50-75% off and a complete edition and so on. It's kind of part and parcel with super text heavy games, Tyranny or Torment: Tides of Numenera are going to be the same thing when they're 5 bucks as they are when they're 50+ and once you have a certain number of 100+ hour potential RPGs per year their sales figures pool where titles are competing for the same sales. Just my thoughts on why Deadfire didn't sell as well as many hoped. I will probably buy every 50+ hour western RPG that comes out, but there are very few customers who feel the same.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Clawdius_Talonious

[Yosharian]

I found Tyranny was pretty awful. Although I liked certain aspects of it (setting mostly) the combat system was so bad that it gave me shivers. I don't think that was the reason for it failure though. I think the (perceived) lack of a hero you could sympathize with was the main reason - but that's only wild guessing.

Tyranny is boring.

[Stardusk78]

I mean, a lot of people I know bounced right off of Pillars of Eternity. People I'd have expected to love it just didn't get into it, I expected to enjoy it but I absolutely loved it. Deadfire was... more freeform and exploration oriented, which was good, but the balance was tuned way too low to start which got some bad reviews or people saying to wait. And other people 

 

I feel like the problem with a game like Deadfire is, a ton of people who want to play it probably just aren't going to buy it until it's 50-75% off and a complete edition and so on. It's kind of part and parcel with super text heavy games, Tyranny or Torment: Tides of Numenera are going to be the same thing when they're 5 bucks as they are when they're 50+ and once you have a certain number of 100+ hour potential RPGs per year their sales figures pool where titles are competing for the same sales. Just my thoughts on why Deadfire didn't sell as well as many hoped. I will probably buy every 50+ hour western RPG that comes out, but there are very few customers who feel the same.

Is it official that POE2 sold so poorly?

[ShadySands]

Tyranny was great and did better than it may have seemed at first. I highly doubt Obsidian will ever touch that world again though since I don't think MS will let them work on another publisher's IP even if Paradox wanted them to (and I'm not sold that they would). Makes me sad since Paradox also owns World of Darkness.

 

I'd be very shocked if we don't get another Pillars game though I'm not sure if it'd be in the same vein as the first two games. I'm thinking it may somewhat follow the Dragon Age series trajectory.

[Clawdius_Talonious]

Is it official that POE2 sold so poorly?

 

 

 

I mean, we've got their Fig investor returns, we don't have access to Obsidian financials to see exactly how much of their own money was put up vs how much of the budget was purely from crowdfunding (a ton of crowd funded things use the definite interest of a few thousand to project sales figures and get more money from investors.)

 

I mean short of Obsidian coming out and saying "We had 500,000 sales of Deadfire in 2018" I'm not sure what else we would see. We're kind of piecing things together from disparate facts. Steam has officially said that developers can release Steam numbers if they want (AFAIK we're not aware of anyone receiving any guff from Steam prior to this if they had discussed sales figures, but it's still an official seal of approval.) Still, companies aren't likely to necessarily discuss these kinds of financial details unless they're really really good or really really bad. If you extrapolate 200,000 sales at 60 dollars it's still 8.4 million in revenue for Obsidian, it's just that we don't know what the break even point was for Deadfire. We have reason to imagine that Obsidian didn't wildly hype themselves up for sales of Deadfire after The White March (As I understand it) didn't recoup development costs. I'm sure they were still disappointed, but how disappointed they were is unlikely to be answered officially.

 

TL;DR: Long answer yes with an if, short answer no with a but.

[Verde]

I don't think Obsidian has made an argument for buying their RPGs prior to a year after release. Even at this point we have an absurd amount of bugs, some that have come and gone, and come again.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Verde

[house2fly]

Yeah, I kind of think this game's sales were going to live and die on how it was at release, and they brought it out with a ton of prominent bugs, which I imagine harmed word of mouth as did their post release mass rebalancing of items and abilities- how much more clearly could you communicate "this game was not released finished". You can see a similar thing with how audience interest in Pathfinder kingmaker dried up

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

I found Tyranny was pretty awful. Although I liked certain aspects of it (setting mostly) the combat system was so bad that it gave me shivers. I don't think that was the reason for its failure though. I think the (perceived) lack of a hero you could sympathize with was the main reason - but that's only wild guessing.

It is possible at least some were put off by the "evil has won and you are the overlord's lackey" premise, though had they played it, they would have found the hero to be practically indistinguishable from the hero of PoE; I am pretty sure that if somebody shouted "Watcher", the Fatebinder would turn around and say "Yes?"

Needless to say I am a bit tired of all these watchers, fatebinders and captains. A hero without a title would be refreshing. Also guild names like earthshakers or watershapers are overused to the point that every time such guild is mentioned, I half except avatar Korra to jump from behind a tree. Names like Leaden Key or Dunryd Row are much better.

 

 

I don't think Obsidian has made an argument for buying their RPGs prior to a year after release. Even at this point we have an absurd amount of bugs, some that have come and gone, and come again.

 

Sad, but true.

[Clawdius_Talonious]

Yeah, I kind of think this game's sales were going to live and die on how it was at release, and they brought it out with a ton of prominent bugs, which I imagine harmed word of mouth as did their post release mass rebalancing of items and abilities- how much more clearly could you communicate "this game was not released finished". You can see a similar thing with how audience interest in Pathfinder kingmaker dried up

I wouldn't say interest in P:K dried up exactly so much as cooled off, personally I've told people with interest in it to keep it on the shelf, but I bought their Season Pass and really do hope Owlcat made enough that they come out with sequels and the like. It's both a good thing (for longevity) and bad thing (for early sales figures) that these kinds of RPGs not only don't age quite like other products but could be said to improve with age. Of course, Owlcat's first effort was bug riddled, but it was Owlcat's first rodeo. They did their eight seconds, didn't get kicked in the head, and I reckon seein' them come back for another in the future would appeal to me just fine.

 

I hope that Owlcat did enough business that they can stay together as a company, of all the RPGs from first time companies that I've backed on Kickstarter despite the state it shipped in I feel like it was in a place where it -could- be improved to the point that it's considered a classic to fans of the genre. I'm hoping Owlcat gets that chance, because I feel like they deserve it. Obsidian's continued existence as a discrete entity operated by Microsoft is assured for a time at least, it's not EA so it's not a countdown to extinction. P:K may have been Owlcat's chance and if they managed to under-perform enough that they don't get another one that would be a real shame.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

these kinds of RPGs not only don't age quite like other products but could be said to improve with age. 

 

there are so many examples of this now - and ive no idea if devs/publishers have worked out a way to balance their books with this tendency. guess if ur studios big enough u can have one team fulfilling contracts to pay the bills now, while ur other team toils away on something that will fund ur retirement.

 

In a way, i think the kickstarter era hasnt really ended. instead of people backing the game prior, people buying the game at launch are the ones funding a good chunk of development - in the hope that something better is due.

 

many online games have a similar trial. they dont repay a gamers investment until theyve limped on long enough to develop enough content. ur kinda depending on a first wave of people seeing enough potential that theyre willing to back u up with hard cash until ur ship comes in - or microtransactions ofc, but thats kinda beyond the scope of what im prattling about rn.

 

glib answer would be to make game right first time. unfortunately if game is yay ambitious and reactive, ur budget probably wont last thru both development and qa, so u have to release prematurely. if ur game is systems based ur not going to know extent of how borked it is until uve chucked several thousand powergamers at it. unfortunately, many crpgs straddle both categories.

 

CD Projekt got around some of this by having their own store to help finance their antics, but i think thats a trick only one dev can pull at any one time.

 

 

I bought their Season Pass and really do hope Owlcat made enough that they come out with sequels and the like. Of course, Owlcat's first effort was bug riddled, but it was Owlcat's first rodeo. They did their eight seconds, didn't get kicked in the head, and I reckon seein' them come back for another in the future would appeal to me just fine.

 

 

I hope that Owlcat did enough business that they can stay together as a company, of all the RPGs from first time companies that I've backed on Kickstarter despite the state it shipped in I feel like it was in a place where it -could- be improved to the point that it's considered a classic to fans of the genre. I'm hoping Owlcat gets that chance, because I feel like they deserve it.

 

ye, km's already far enough along that u can see the game owlcat want to make and likely will if given enough time and experience. i backed km and id back a second game from them fo sho.

 

i still need to finish km. its gone on the backburner cos of forgotten sanctum dropping, but i will get back to it.

[Bleak]

I hope that Owlcat did enough business that they can stay together as a company, of all the RPGs from first time companies that I've backed on Kickstarter despite the state it shipped in I feel like it was in a place where it -could- be improved to the point that it's considered a classic to fans of the genre. I'm hoping Owlcat gets that chance, because I feel like they deserve it. Obsidian's continued existence as a discrete entity operated by Microsoft is assured for a time at least, it's not EA so it's not a countdown to extinction. P:K may have been Owlcat's chance and if they managed to under-perform enough that they don't get another one that would be a real shame.

 

 

Would be a shame indeed. That game was released in an immensely buggy state. Most bugs are fixed now and it's a bloody brilliant game (tons of skill checks, stats that actually matter everywhere, interesting game/kingdom mechanics/choices, amazing RP etc), but unfortunately first impressions are vital to a game's sales. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Bleak

[Saito Hikari]

I'm pretty sure we don't need to be worrying about Owlcat and Pathfinder. It seems to me that the game was still a major success, and I remember seeing metrics estimating that Pathfinder had already sold more than PoE2 did within its first few days.

 

If it weren't for the bugs and endgame design, I could easily see Pathfinder being regarded much more highly than PoE2, and a lot of people waiting for the game to get patched up probably feel the same way.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[guildwriter]

I found Tyranny was pretty awful. Although I liked certain aspects of it (setting mostly) the combat system was so bad that it gave me shivers. I don't think that was the reason for its failure though. I think the (perceived) lack of a hero you could sympathize with was the main reason - but that's only wild guessing.

 

I bought and tried Tyranny recently and couldn't stand it after a couple of hours.  Here are the things that stood out to me quickly:

• UI felt . . . not good.  Took too much of the screen and there were a lot of aspects that simply were unpolished.  When there are large gaps of empty space due to the borders of the window not being anchored correctly to the text boxes I get annoyed.  In general felt unpolished and needed a lot of work.
• There's a big difference between waking up and having Eder wisecracking and having someone who comes off as a psychopath be the first to greet you.  That is to say the characters matter and I didn't like anyone I met.  Everyone you meet is angry or fighting with each other or a professional ****.  It's a bit much, especially for a brand new setting.  I understand why it's this way but it's still offputting.  
• Combat system felt too fast and honestly letting the AI take control was for the best.  Unfortunately I hate playing that way so it was hard to get into it.  The systems themselves felt like a weird mish mash of concepts that just got thrown in your face and you had to try to figure out everything on the fly.  

These three things sunk the game for me and I just stopped after a couple of hours.  I can see the game getting more interesting if I gave it more time, but it's hard to justify it when I enjoy Deadfire so much more.

[Verde]

I'm pretty sure we don't need to be worrying about Owlcat and Pathfinder. It seems to me that the game was still a major success, and I remember seeing metrics estimating that Pathfinder had already sold more than PoE2 did within its first few days.

 

If it weren't for the bugs and endgame design, I could easily see Pathfinder being regarded much more highly than PoE2, and a lot of people waiting for the game to get patched up probably feel the same way.

Can you expand on the Pathfinder issues? I'd love to pick it up but it sounds like it needs more time to cook.

[kanisatha]

 

I'm pretty sure we don't need to be worrying about Owlcat and Pathfinder. It seems to me that the game was still a major success, and I remember seeing metrics estimating that Pathfinder had already sold more than PoE2 did within its first few days.

 

If it weren't for the bugs and endgame design, I could easily see Pathfinder being regarded much more highly than PoE2, and a lot of people waiting for the game to get patched up probably feel the same way.

Can you expand on the Pathfinder issues? I'd love to pick it up but it sounds like it needs more time to cook.

It's been significantly patched and fixed already, and is in a perfectly playable state right now. And they're continuing to work on it including releasing DLCs. Owlcat is a very small company, maybe only like ten or fewer people in it. Yet they've done amazing things with the patching even while also adding in new things (features, classes, companions, areas, etc.). They're probably working 12-15 hours a day!

[Bleak]

 

 

I'm pretty sure we don't need to be worrying about Owlcat and Pathfinder. It seems to me that the game was still a major success, and I remember seeing metrics estimating that Pathfinder had already sold more than PoE2 did within its first few days.

 

If it weren't for the bugs and endgame design, I could easily see Pathfinder being regarded much more highly than PoE2, and a lot of people waiting for the game to get patched up probably feel the same way.

Can you expand on the Pathfinder issues? I'd love to pick it up but it sounds like it needs more time to cook.

It's been significantly patched and fixed already, and is in a perfectly playable state right now. And they're continuing to work on it including releasing DLCs. Owlcat is a very small company, maybe only like ten or fewer people in it. Yet they've done amazing things with the patching even while also adding in new things (features, classes, companions, areas, etc.). They're probably working 12-15 hours a day!

 

 

Really hope they get rewarded for it! Had an awesome RP experience playing it.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

 

I'm pretty sure we don't need to be worrying about Owlcat and Pathfinder. It seems to me that the game was still a major success, and I remember seeing metrics estimating that Pathfinder had already sold more than PoE2 did within its first few days.

 

If it weren't for the bugs and endgame design, I could easily see Pathfinder being regarded much more highly than PoE2, and a lot of people waiting for the game to get patched up probably feel the same way.

Can you expand on the Pathfinder issues? I'd love to pick it up but it sounds like it needs more time to cook.

 

 

id give it a shot if ur into what its selling. its not worlds more busted than games like kotor2, arcanum and vtmb were at launch. maybe my standards are too low through experience. lol. can confirm owlcat seems very interested in supporting and fixing game tho.

 

the warning id give is that its balanced around someone who knows how to abuse pathfinder or 3.x. so builds that wont have u throwing computer out of window in frustration arent always obvious. do urself a favour and check how to build before playing.

 

also be willing to look up the necessary counter spell for certain fights if u run into a wall. - for example i ran into one annoying fight that was rendered utterly trivial by 'disrupting weapons'. 'death ward' and 'freedom of movement' have starring turns as well. because its a d&d game, 'haste', the concealment spells, 'mirror image' + 'stoneskin' are all busted, as is tradition.

 

as for the writing, its tropey af, but fine and occasionally good. the narrative designers can turn phrases and compose arcs when inspired. chief problem is that too many sections read like first draft, so im guessing they tried to write too much, too fast.

 

is fun tho. u get to go on merry adventures across the map, slaying owlbears and stuff with ur d&d party.

[house2fly]

I'm pretty sure we don't need to be worrying about Owlcat and Pathfinder. It seems to me that the game was still a major success, and I remember seeing metrics estimating that Pathfinder had already sold more than PoE2 did within its first few days.

 

If it weren't for the bugs and endgame design, I could easily see Pathfinder being regarded much more highly than PoE2, and a lot of people waiting for the game to get patched up probably feel the same way.

Many games make most of their sales within the first few days. A look at the achievement stats for PK will show how many people are sticking with it- so far 2% of its players have reached the end. 

[Saito Hikari]

@Verde: It's not a game for everyone. It has one of my most favorite casts of characters in recent times (as tropey as they may be), although that's probably because their companion quests actually span throughout the game. However, a lot of the game is based around keeping track of timers, many of them invisible. Much of the game takes place in a strict 4 and a half year period, split into 7 chapters, complete with seasons changing maps and weather patterns. And it's strict in that you can't do anything to extend most of the timers, you'll straight up game over with the main quest timers. And that's where most people hit a game over wall, which is why the best advice is to keep backup saves at the start/end of each chapter.

 

The game expects you to pay attention. If you have a bunch of trolls terrorizing your populace, you'd better go out and deal with it.

 

(Also the endgame expects you to be a munchkin. Your party members better have Freedom of Movement.)

 

Many games make most of their sales within the first few days. A look at the achievement stats for PK will show how many people are sticking with it- so far 2% of its players have reached the end. 

 

Well, yes. It's an absurdly long game, and the game has no reservations about ending your playthrough. Pathfinder took me about 130 hours to reach the end, and that was with 2 restarts within the first 40 hours. Most people's first playthrough will probably fail, and the game does not hold your hand, period.

 

It's hard for me to explain why I ended up liking Pathfinder so much. Something about it just feels so pure in ways most other recent cRPGs failed to evoke. Thinking about it as much as I can, I think it's because the writing actually gives an incredible amount of agency to the player character and their decisions, and there are actual consequences that crop up from said choices later in the game. I imagine the reason why there's so little information of what happens in a Chaotic Evil playthrough is because everyone knows the game won't try to stop you or sanitize it at all.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Bleak]

@Verde: It's not a game for everyone. It has one of my most favorite casts of characters in recent times (as tropey as they may be), although that's probably because their companion quests actually span throughout the game. However, a lot of the game is based around keeping track of timers, many of them invisible. Much of the game takes place in a strict 4 and a half year period, split into 7 chapters, complete with seasons changing maps and weather patterns. And it's strict in that you can't do anything to extend most of the timers, you'll straight up game over with the main quest timers. And that's where most people hit a game over wall, which is why the best advice is to keep backup saves at the start/end of each chapter.

 

The game expects you to pay attention. If you have a bunch of trolls terrorizing your populace, you'd better go out and deal with it.

 

(Also the endgame expects you to be a munchkin. Your party members better have Freedom of Movement.)

 

Many games make most of their sales within the first few days. A look at the achievement stats for PK will show how many people are sticking with it- so far 2% of its players have reached the end. 

 

Well, yes. It's an absurdly long game, and the game has no reservations about ending your playthrough. Pathfinder took me about 130 hours to reach the end, and that was with 2 restarts within the first 40 hours. Most people's first playthrough will probably fail, and the game does not hold your hand, period.

 

It's hard for me to explain why I ended up liking Pathfinder so much. Something about it just feels so pure in ways most other recent cRPGs failed to evoke. Thinking about it as much as I can, I think it's because the writing actually gives an incredible amount of agency to the player character and their decisions, and there are actual consequences that crop up from said choices later in the game. I imagine the reason why there's so little information of what happens in a Chaotic Evil playthrough is because everyone knows the game won't try to stop you or sanitize it at all.

 

The amount of skill checks, choices and their consequences are a LOT and they are real. They have done a stellar job overall. And yes, it doesn't hold your hand at all and it's a huge game. Only gripe was loading screens. Hopefully it will fare well so that other crpgs follow its example.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Bleak

[Manveru123]

 

 

I'm pretty sure we don't need to be worrying about Owlcat and Pathfinder. It seems to me that the game was still a major success, and I remember seeing metrics estimating that Pathfinder had already sold more than PoE2 did within its first few days.

 

If it weren't for the bugs and endgame design, I could easily see Pathfinder being regarded much more highly than PoE2, and a lot of people waiting for the game to get patched up probably feel the same way.

Can you expand on the Pathfinder issues? I'd love to pick it up but it sounds like it needs more time to cook.

It's been significantly patched and fixed already, and is in a perfectly playable state right now. And they're continuing to work on it including releasing DLCs. Owlcat is a very small company, maybe only like ten or fewer people in it. Yet they've done amazing things with the patching even while also adding in new things (features, classes, companions, areas, etc.). They're probably working 12-15 hours a day!

 

It also has very strong mod support. You can really customize many different aspects of the game with them, if you're into that kind of thing.

 

It also has a hidden true ending that barely anyone talks about (mostly because barely anyone knows about it :D), which requires you to make specific decisions in multiple parts of your whole playthrough.

 

EDIT: there's a beta patch available that is supposed to help with loading times.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Manveru123

[Saito Hikari]

It also has very strong mod support. You can really customize many different aspects of the game with them, if you're into that kind of thing.

 

It also has a hidden true ending that barely anyone talks about (mostly because barely anyone knows about it :D), which requires you to make specific decisions in multiple parts of your whole playthrough.

 

EDIT: there's a beta patch available that is supposed to help with loading times.

 

To be fair, I wouldn't consider it a 'true ending' (even if the file names indicate it as such), more like a 'very well hidden ending' considering that at the moment, only Good aligned characters might be able to achieve it. Or at the least, only Good aligned characters get a really strong passive at endgame while attempting to get said ending. I would know, I'm the one who wrote the initial information gathering guide over at the subreddit in order to find out what I and many others missed during the first month of release, after I ended up failing the very last step to achieve the ending.

 

Nowadays, there's a complete guide (in Russian) on how to get it, though some details (particularly hidden stat checks in dialogue that may be required) still aren't very well documented. The guide was partially translated into English a while back, but the aforementioned dialogue requirements when talking to three of the end of chapter bosses weren't (so the exact dialogue options and stat checks to find them still isn't documented in English).

Edited December 28, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Manveru123]

It's still better than one dimensional main story progression we get from other games of this type.