Firebrand has a lash now - and is finally a serious weapon

[AndreaColombo]

Yeah, but then this last person seems to be a bit sloppy

 

A bit.

[Boeroer]

 

 

While big RPGs always let a few of these trash options slip through unintentionally, the best way to avoid the problem on a large scale is simply to ask why well-informed players, acting with eyes wide open, would want to pick any given option over a different option in the first place.

 

Yeah well - that didn't really get implemented so far. Ooor the well-informed players of Something Awful and Twitter do see things fundamentally different than we do...?

[djinnxy]

I ran a Priest of Wael/Bleakwalker on my first play through after release focusing heavily on the summoned rod blast. That was before 1.1. After the recent patches on the rod for penetration and two handed penetration it's worth a second look. The nerf to lash was an unfortunate non-necessity. The time could have been spent on repairing weapons with infinite procs.

 

I did want to add this: Great topic and responses. I hope the devs read topics like this especially after the Patch of Nalpazca Doom.

[thelee]

 

If you ask yourself why Firebrand has +25% lash while the priest weapons have 50%: Firebrand lasts a lot longer: 60sec (base).

Confirming Dr<3 reply regarding priest spiritual weapons having only +20% lash.

 

 

They are listed as +20% lash, but they can get up to +30% lash in-combat depending on your favored reputations (I've confirmed this in-game).

 

Also: how do you get Woedica's Fists?

 

 

@last question: no idea. It seems to work the same.

 

I don't understand why they nerfed the spiritual weapons while they buffed Firebrand. The faith attuned weapons only have half the duration and don't work with elemental talents - which makes them STRICTLY worse than Firebrand now. I guess it's not the same person(s) who nerf and buff around? What a mess!

 

ANd seriously: who determined that Spirutual Weapons need a nerf in the first place? I saw no build so far that used them on a regular basis.   

 

They nerfed spiritual weapons and buffed firebrand, but to about the same point. IIRC, firebrand used to have no lash, and spiritual weapons had a +50% lash. firebrand gets buffed to have a +25% lash and spiritual weapons get nerfed to have a variable +20-30% lash. seems like they are being balanced to virtually the exact same point. the main difference being that firebrand can benefit from some elemental talents/items, whereas spiritual weapon substitutes with subclass-specific variety.

 

With a +50% lash, spiritual weapons were at an "always a good choice" point. With a +20-30% lash, spiritual weapons are more of at a "sometimes a good choice" point. Currently it seems like Obsidian is deliberately balancing towards that latter for lower PL conjured weapons, even if they weren't seeing much usage.

 

also:

 

I mean why lose an ability point, a spell slot and 3s of cast time to summon Sword of Magran when you can take Watcher's Blade instead. Or for example compare Rod of Wael with Watershaper's Focus.

 

Watershaper's Focus does a terrible amount of damage, even if it bounces. I don't know why you would think it's directly comparable. Watershaper's Focus is a situational weapon. For that matter, the spiritual weapons are also mostly situational weapons as it is (and it seems that this is what Obsidian is deliberately balancing for).

 

Also the lash you get from a sword of magran is theoretically better than a watcher's blade, and you don't have to be actively equipping it. (I say theoretically because pre-1.2 the lash doesn't work so it is strictly worse than any unique sword right now.)

Edited July 1, 2018 by thelee

[AndreaColombo]

Also: how do you get Woedica's Fists?

 

Console.

 

They're the spiritual weapon of the Priest of Woedica subclass, which is unavailable to players (Josh said in a Q&A stream they would have wanted to implement it, but didn't have enough time to finish it especially with regards to in-game reactivity.)

[thelee]

Honestly, I'm not sure I have too much of a dog in this race. I use the conjured weapons as is, but I also liked the poe1 summoned weapons. I'm pretty ambivalent about this whole discussion and buffs/nerfs talk.

 

Maybe the best thing Obsidian could do from a make-the-players-happy standpoint but also from a balancing standpoint is make the lower level ones more powerful, but also make them last less time (going from 30-60s of situationally better weapons versus 15-25s of strictly better weapons). (I strongly believe the higher level wizard ones are fine as-is. The blackbow even post 1.2 nerf is probably going to be an autocast for me in virtually any fight.)

Edited July 1, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

As I mentioned before: Firebrand and Spiritual weapons are not balanced to the point: Firebrand lasts twice as long (60 secs). Afaik Spiritual Weapons last only half as long. Scion of Flame and the Ring are not part of the weapon, so I'll leave it aside when comparing those two. But even without I think a weapon that last twice as long and has the same lash (on average) as another one that has only half the duration is better. For me half duration but double the lash was acceptable.

[thelee]

As I mentioned before: Firebrand and Spiritual weapons are not balanced to the point: Firebrand lasts twice as long (60 secs). Afaik Spiritual Weapons last only half as long. Scion of Flame and the Ring are not part of the weapon, so I'll leave it aside when comparing those two. But even without I think a weapon that last twice as long and has the same lash (on average) as another one that has only half the duration is better. For me half duration but double the lash was acceptable.

 

1/2 duration but double the lash doesn't seem balanced to me. it seems like we could take it to absurd levels otherwise. 1/5 the duration and 5x the lash? A base 12s weapon with a +125% lash I would not consider remotely balanced to the same level as firebrand.

[Boeroer]

So - you are saying that 20-30% for 30 sec is balanced with 25% for 60 sec?

 

30 sec with 50% lash (3 sec. summoning time) vs. 60sec with 25% was acceptable for me. Not perfectly balanced but ok - also when I now look at how I can improve Firebrand further with an ability and an item.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[thelee]

So - you are saying that 20-30% for 30 sec is balanced with 25% for 60 sec?

30 sec with 50% lash (3 sec. summoning time) vs. 60sec with 25% was acceptable for me. Not perfectly balanced but ok - also when I now look at how I can improve Firebrand further with an ability and an item.

Considering that for much of the game it's a +30% lash and that depending on the priest subclass you can get somewhat interesting variations (mostly skaen, wael, and magran) I would put them in the same ballpark.

 

I would chalk up variations in favor of the druid to be an artifact of the fact that the druid is expected to be a little bit more martial than the priest. (E.g. even though a berath priest also gets a great sword spiritual weapon like firebrand I would put that as worse because a priest is more poorly suited to being up close with a sword compared to a druid.)

 

That being said, I'm honestly surprised that firebrand *didn't* have a lash until now.

[MaxQuest]

They are listed as +20% lash, but they can get up to +30% lash in-combat depending on your favored reputations (I've confirmed this in-game).

Oh, that's good to know.

I like this approach of lash scaling with deity matching dispositions.

But dam, this really should be in the weapon's tooltip.

 

 

I mean why lose an ability point, a spell slot and 3s of cast time to summon Sword of Magran when you can take Watcher's Blade instead. Or for example compare Rod of Wael with Watershaper's Focus.

Watershaper's Focus does a terrible amount of damage, even if it bounces. I don't know why you would think it's directly comparable. Watershaper's Focus is a situational weapon. For that matter, the spiritual weapons are also mostly situational weapons as it is (and it seems that this is what Obsidian is deliberately balancing for).

Tehee, to be honest I just didn't notice that Watershaper's Focus has non-standard base damage.

Was thinking: that's like a usual rod, but with bounce!

Like Keybreaker which had base damage of usual scepter but also had bounce.

 

I have checked Watershaper's Focus now ingame. And yeah, thanks for pointing out, it's a bit of dissapointment:

- mundane rod base damage: 15-24

- watershaper's focus: 9-12 + 1 bounce (which deals damage to adjacent enemy with -25% damage coef.)

 

The good thing through is it's property Ondra's Wrath, which:

- seems to trigger from main hit, bounce, and blast hits. (vs 9 dummies it was triggering all the time)

- aoe crush damage for ~12-15 base damage, seems to generates focus. (ascendant is happy; vs 4-5 targets with rod modal on, one swing can generate full focus)

Edited July 1, 2018 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

I thought the entire point of Watershaper's Focus was the extra Water PL for Tekehu's FoE-only spells

[MaxQuest]

Am guilty of examining weapons first of all from cipher perspective ^^

 

There are waves, but not of wotah)

Edited July 1, 2018 by MaxQuest

[QuiteGoneJin]

Been playing Fury/Bleak Walker and its ability to elemental nuke and melee is pretty fun. Some notes: whispers is such low damage now its not worth, sadly. Also if you queue up a FOD before casting firebrand it call not do the FOD for some reason. Its really annoying. This alone ALMOST had me not play the class as I like to shift click my starting spells (few sunbeams, and sworn enemies, then firebrand and FOD).

 

PS also the build doesnt have the acc needed for deadly deadfire mod, unfortunately. Just my opinion. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by QuiteGoneJin

[Boeroer]

Base ACC is 20 as for all other classes. Firebrand scales with level, giving you appropriate ACC bonuses, Ring gives you +10 ACC with Firebrand and fire spells, FoD even +10 more. Zealous Focus gives you bonus ACC, stuff like Sunbeam and Nature's Mark lowers defenses. How do you have accuracy issues with this general idea and with which ones you haven't?

[QuiteGoneJin]

Its probably just the overtuned mod, deadly deadfire, for example makes Gorecci mobs have +24 deflect bonus on potd.  And I wasnt using natures mark, which is my own dumb fault. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by QuiteGoneJin

[coldmind]

i`m near to finish TCS run with my barbarian in POE1 and haven`t play Deadfire yet, so is firebrand still one of the best weapon choices for barbarian in Deadfire?

[Dorftek]

i`m near to finish TCS run with my barbarian in POE1 and haven`t play Deadfire yet, so is firebrand still one of the best weapon choices for barbarian in Deadfire?

No it was much better in the first game.

[Haplok]

Particularly in PoE 1.0 :D

[heldred]

I really am trying to build a Devoted/Druid specializing in Firebrand and it really is lame.

 

My Streetfighter/Druid and a prior run with a Helwalker/Druid shredded stuff from the start 3x faster.

 

Firebrand is nice, but outclassed by Beast-mode at all levels.

[Boeroer]

I tried Firebrand with a Bleak Walker/Druid. I just switched on Savage Attack all the time when doing FoD. I got +3 PEN for FOD and +20 ACC with the ring (+10 ring, +10 FoD) which lead to nice FoD damage - but you also have to use your spells. Firebrand alone is not good enough to play a "great sword melee only" druid. The Druid brings not much to the table when it comes to great sword fighting (except maybe Taste of the Hunt).

 

The weapon itself is ok now, the problem is that only druids can summon it.

[AndreaColombo]

You could use scrolls for non-Druids. Granted, they are not unlimited but you should be able to craft a good number of them.

[coldmind]

I tried Firebrand with a Bleak Walker/Druid. I just switched on Savage Attack all the time when doing FoD. I got +3 PEN for FOD and +20 ACC with the ring (+10 ring, +10 FoD) which lead to nice FoD damage - but you also have to use your spells. Firebrand alone is not good enough to play a "great sword melee only" druid. The Druid brings not much to the table when it comes to great sword fighting (except maybe Taste of the Hunt).

 

The weapon itself is ok now, the problem is that only druids can summon it.

 

wait so now there`s no stuff summoned items for it except druid spell? i want to try this with barb carnage (though i`ve heard in deadfire it`s kinda nerfed and becomes cheap unlike original game) but if it`s only for druids now then it`s a bit disappointment 4 me 

[Dorftek]

You could use scrolls for non-Druids. Granted, they are not unlimited but you should be able to craft a good number of them.

Wich ingredient in it is not unlimited? Couldn't find the ingredients on the web. BTW do you use "ingredients" in this context or is that just for cooking?

[Dorftek]

 

I tried Firebrand with a Bleak Walker/Druid. I just switched on Savage Attack all the time when doing FoD. I got +3 PEN for FOD and +20 ACC with the ring (+10 ring, +10 FoD) which lead to nice FoD damage - but you also have to use your spells. Firebrand alone is not good enough to play a "great sword melee only" druid. The Druid brings not much to the table when it comes to great sword fighting (except maybe Taste of the Hunt).

 

The weapon itself is ok now, the problem is that only druids can summon it.

wait so now there`s no stuff summoned items for it except druid spell? i want to try this with barb carnage (though i`ve heard in deadfire it`s kinda nerfed and becomes cheap unlike original game) but if it`s only for druids now then it`s a bit disappointment 4 me

Indeed, the equipment in this game is very bland and disappointing compared to the first game, however firebrand is available to all through scrolls.