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Hebruixe

Single-class casters should have access to all spells.

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Single-class characters shouldn't suffer the same restrictions and limitations as multiclass characters. 

 

Single-class druids, wizards and priests should not have to choose which spells they get upon levelup. They should gain access to all spells (just like in Pillars 1).

 

The "limited spell selections" penalty should apply to multiclass characters only.

 

This makes the best sense both mechanically and lorewise. Single-class characters should be allowed to truly master their chosen class, since they forfeit the advantages of multiclassing. And it's not like permitting this will ruin class balance. It worked just fine in Pillars 1.

Edited by Hebruixe
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100% agree great post

 

huge oversite by obsidian

 

the only reason people currently rolling single classes is becasue of the current level cap

 

if the expansions raise the level cap for multis then single class characters will become obsolete

Edited by antman45454

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That completely removes the point of grimoires for wizards and enables all 3 of those classes to load up on passives while other classes have to split their points between their active and passive abilities. Single classes already get 1 more ability point and 2 more power levels so it's not like they're significantly weaker.

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That completely removes the point of grimoires for wizards and enables all 3 of those classes to load up on passives while other classes have to split their points between their active and passive abilities. Single classes already get 1 more ability point and 2 more power levels so it's not like they're significantly weaker.

 

It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to come up with solutions to these problems.

 

1. Grimoires can change function. For example, put only unique spells (like Nannasin's Cobra Strike) in them. Wizards now have have a meaningful choice when it comes to grimoire selection, as it determines which unique spell(s) they gain access to.

 

2. Limit the number of passives that can be chosen by Druid/Wizard/Priest so that their options fall in line with other classes.

 

Problems solved. Let's give single-class casters access to their entire spell trees, like they deserve.

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Or use something like spell mastery from PoE1. Casters would choose their mastered spells and they would cost 1 class resource per cast.

 

The other spells would cost 2 resources, be "depowered" (less power levels) and have a chance to fail.

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Eh. I've come around on this.

 

Casters already get 1 (priest or druid) or 2 (wizard grimoire) free spells. With 3 or 4 abilities per power level, and only 2 casts per power level, you really don't need many spells before you run out of casts. Having all spells is useful when you first play, and don't know which ones are useful. But after a couple characters, you barely notice the "missing" spells, because they aren't in your rotation anyway.

Edited by Balbanes
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It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to come up with solutions to these problems.

It takes a lot of time and balancing, almost every encounter in Deadfire would need to be redesigned to allow for spellcasters having access to all potential spells. This is in addition to Deadfire already needing to fix broken or weak options and make PotD more difficult.

1. Grimoires can change function. For example, put only unique spells (like Nannasin's Cobra Strike) in them. Wizards now have have a meaningful choice when it comes to grimoire selection, as it determines which unique spell(s) they gain access to.

That removes all but 6 grimoires from the game, which means that they would have to design many new spells to make a reason to use grimoires in the first place.

2. Limit the number of passives that can be chosen by Druid/Wizard/Priest so that their options fall in line with other classes.

Limited in what way? Giving them all their spells would be equivalent to over doubling the amount of ability points they have available to them if they didn't get passive abilities, with 1 passive ability poer power level in addition to knowing every spell single class casters would become superior to any other class in terms of versatility and power.

Let's give single-class casters access to their entire spell trees, like they deserve.

Why do they deserve them and why only those three classes? As it is, Priests and Druids already get 1 more active ability per level while Wizards get 2 per level they can change at any time.
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"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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At least with Wizard and grimoires, not even counting grimoire swaping it is not that bad 2 per level from book, +1 per tier, maybe another +1 if there is a situacioanly good spell, or you just like the versality. 3-4 spells per level generally is enought. You dont need "deflection" spell at each tier.

 

If you want spice single caster:

  • passives +1 spell cast at tier 1-4
  • generally more passives suitable for casters (wand mastery, fire mastery and so on)
  • taster spells at tier VIII-IX, wizards are not bad, but Priest feels rather limited
  • At PL 8 passive "you can use empowerment twice"

There is a thing that wizard has 18 free spells, and priest/druid only 9.

Idea: Generic everylevel spell.

Like Eothas priest could take passive which give at each tier spell "Eothas rescue" which is basic heal with base healing based on tier (from 30 to 120)

In the same time Magran Priest just rain fire at area. It is "same" spell but with different values, maybe some twist at each level.

That could be very flavourish.

And sometimes you are fine with "basic heal at each tier".

 

Fun example: Wael Mystery, at each tier it sends bouncing ball against enemies, which deals random type of damage, and set condition. Condition depends on tier starting from dazed, through terrified ending with domination.

Edited by evilcat
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It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to come up with solutions to these problems.

It takes a lot of time and balancing, almost every encounter in Deadfire would need to be redesigned to allow for spellcasters having access to all potential spells. This is in addition to Deadfire already needing to fix broken or weak options and make PotD more difficult.

1. Grimoires can change function. For example, put only unique spells (like Nannasin's Cobra Strike) in them. Wizards now have have a meaningful choice when it comes to grimoire selection, as it determines which unique spell(s) they gain access to.

That removes all but 6 grimoires from the game, which means that they would have to design many new spells to make a reason to use grimoires in the first place.

2. Limit the number of passives that can be chosen by Druid/Wizard/Priest so that their options fall in line with other classes.

Limited in what way? Giving them all their spells would be equivalent to over doubling the amount of ability points they have available to them if they didn't get passive abilities, with 1 passive ability poer power level in addition to knowing every spell single class casters would become superior to any other class in terms of versatility and power.

Let's give single-class casters access to their entire spell trees, like they deserve.

Why do they deserve them and why only those three classes? As it is, Priests and Druids already get 1 more active ability per level while Wizards get 2 per level they can change at any time.

 

 

1. You're making this up. Nothing needs to be rebalanced in reaction to what I suggested. The fights have already been designed with the knowledge that all possible spells, and any combination of them, can be used by the player. Because players can already do this in the current state of the game. The balancing factor (which is unaffected by my suggestion) is the fact that you only get 2 casts per level per encounter. Your claim that giving casters access to all their spells would somehow unbalalance things is false. 

 

2. If that means that only 6 grimoires remain in the game, then that's just fine. Grimoires will become highly coveted loot drops. They'll be special for once because they offer wizards unique spells that can't be learned upon levelup. I can see this only as a vast improvement over the current system where the grimoire is essentially just a crutch needed by a crippled class. Furthermore, I think it would be a good outcome if, as you implied, Obsidian had to develop more new unique spells to put in more grimoires.

 

3. Halve the number of ability points that Druids/Wizards/Priests get upon levelup. Or quarter it. I'm not sure what the exact "balanced" percentage should be, but I'm sure Obsidian can figure it out. Since Druids/Wizards/Priests will only get passives, they won't need as many ability points to spend. So they won't get as many. Simple.

 

4. I'm not opposed to the idea of giving all single-class characters, regardless of class, automatic access to all their abilities. I just felt that requesting that was a little too ambitious for this thread. If it was up to be I'd let single-class Rogues/Ciphers/Barbarians/Paladins/Fighters/Chanters/Monks/Rangers automatically gain all their active abilities instead of just Druids/Wizards/Priests. Because to me it seems that only multiclass characters should be required to choose a limited selection of abilities. Multiclass combinations need to be carefully balanced. But single-class characters shouldn't have to suffer the same penalties, restrictions, and limitations.

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While where at it multiclass and grimories seems a bit overpowered. I.e a self buffing rogue can just buy the one from the dark cupboard and not spend a single point on spells.

Single class isn't as bad as they don't have as many good alternative picks but multi seems to encourage gaming the system.

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Or use something like spell mastery from PoE1. Casters would choose their mastered spells and they would cost 1 class resource per cast.

 

The other spells would cost 2 resources, be "depowered" (less power levels) and have a chance to fail.

 

Something like this would be good I think, though I'm not sure I would go with the depowering. I'd probably just use it to buff the single class casters. One somewhat similar alternative (though not mutually exclusive to spell mastery) would be that single class casters could use their higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells at a higher power level (maybe just the difference in level). Aside from powering up your spells and giving additional value to lower level spells later, it als gives the flexibility of casting more than two of a particular spell if you want to (which I've always felt should be possible anyway).

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Why has this game restrictions at all? Every character should have the ability to do everything I want. That always bugged my about chess, too. Just look a the pawns. They are completely obsolete. Stupid game.

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TBH with single casters you would just not find that many spells worth using to begin with. There aren't particular must have spells which you always take, like haste/breach/stoneskin/dispel magic, and not enough schools of magic/priest/druid domains to make you choose. I end up taking 3-5 passives because of that.

Edited by Shadenuat

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TBH with single casters you would just not find that many spells worth using to begin with. There aren't particular must have spells which you always take, like haste/breach/stoneskin/dispel magic, and not enough schools of magic/priest/druid domains to make you choose. I end up taking 3-5 passives because of that.

Some of us like access to a lot of spells because we like their effects, not because of how strong they are in a min/max point of view.

 

Nevertheless, I'm fine with the current system since the game is balanced around it.

Edited by Bill Gates' Son
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Rather, picking a specific spell should add one free cast per encounter of this specific spell to both a single and multiclassed Wizard. In other words, the first cast of this specific spell would not expend 1 spell cast per encounter. Gromoire spells would still only give access to these spells and no free casts per encounter.

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bad idea (OP) I think with how deadfire system work. I would prefer to see all 'useless'/less valuable spells be revalorised. Wizard (and other casters in general) could get more interesting passives, so you have the choice between be generalist caster or very specialised one. That would give more options/buff to a solo caster.

I would like to see more +x spell uses for lower levels, from passives & gears. Because with the 2 spells / levels, some low level spells just loose all their appealing. Each spell from the same level compete each other. Martial classes could get more +resources items/passives for balance.

 

But a trinket for all classes is the missing feature. Other casters should be able to get some bonus spells from trinket too and special feature, like new shapeshifting form for druid, new companions (form) for the ranger etc... plus some uniques abilities (active/passives) for martial classes. Trinkets should work like a modifier that twist the classe, like the rare grimoires that give you a passive effect/new unique spells.

 

 

 

Rather, picking a specific spell should add one free cast per encounter of this specific spell to both a single and multiclassed Wizard. In other words, the first cast of this specific spell would not expend 1 spell cast per encounter. Gromoire spells would still only give access to these spells and no free casts per encounter.

Why not, but could be really op for highter spells. I prefer a passive that allow +1cast for lower level. But, selecting a spell could give you a +1 power level to this spell to represent the fact you're specialised.

Edited by Takkik

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That completely removes the point of grimoires for wizards and enables all 3 of those classes to load up on passives while other classes have to split their points between their active and passive abilities. Single classes already get 1 more ability point and 2 more power levels so it's not like they're significantly weaker.

 

Except for the enchanted grimoires and the grimoires with unique spells.  I keep meaning to try the spell that turns your hands into snakes, but I always equip Ningauth's instead.

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bad idea (OP) I think with how deadfire system work. I would prefer to see all 'useless'/less valuable spells be revalorised. Wizard (and other casters in general) could get more interesting passives, so you have the choice between be generalist caster or very specialised one. That would give more options/buff to a solo caster.

I would like to see more +x spell uses for lower levels, from passives & gears. Because with the 2 spells / levels, some low level spells just loose all their appealing. Each spell from the same level compete each other. Martial classes could get more +resources items/passives for balance.

 

But a trinket for all classes is the missing feature. Other casters should be able to get some bonus spells from trinket too and special feature, like new shapeshifting form for druid, new companions (form) for the ranger etc... plus some uniques abilities (active/passives) for martial classes. Trinkets should work like a modifier that twist the classe, like the rare grimoires that give you a passive effect/new unique spells.

 

 

 

Rather, picking a specific spell should add one free cast per encounter of this specific spell to both a single and multiclassed Wizard. In other words, the first cast of this specific spell would not expend 1 spell cast per encounter. Gromoire spells would still only give access to these spells and no free casts per encounter.

Why not, but could be really op for highter spells. I prefer a passive that allow +1cast for lower level. But, selecting a spell could give you a +1 power level to this spell to represent the fact you're specialised.

 

Something like this ?

- PL 3, Bonus 1-3 level spells: One additional cast for level 1-3 spells.

- PL 5, Bonus 4+5 level spells: One additional cast for level 4+5 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 7, Bonus 6+7 level spells: One additional cast for level 6+7 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 9, Bonus 8+9 level spells: One additional cast for level 8+9 spells. Requires prior talent.

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Why? They don't need to special case the single-class wizard; just tweak and refine the current capabilities.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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But a trinket for all classes is the missing feature.

 

LOL.

So that's why players talk about wizard grimoires only.

 

When is OEI planning to add this feature?


Vancian =/= per rest.

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I suppose it might not be a bad idea if, for some reason, you wanted to completely remove any kind of choice for those classes when levelling up and make keeping more than one party member with those classes highly questionable.

 

Besides, Obsidian will have their hands full actually balancing the abilities classes do have.

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Although unlike PoE I you get per encounter casts. And I don't count the first release of PoE where casters were broken.

 

I think this is how they balanced it. I do think you should probably get more spells per level and 1 more cast per level.

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That completely removes the point of grimoires for wizards and enables all 3 of those classes to load up on passives while other classes have to split their points between their active and passive abilities. Single classes already get 1 more ability point and 2 more power levels so it's not like they're significantly weaker.

 

Yeah but grimoires are pointless. Foced upon us by a dev at Obsidian who was upset that in Pillars 1 no one used them.

 

Now every class has magic (see that really long thread) and spells have become active abilities instead of spells wizards really are boring

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