The french translation was poorly made

[Boeroer]

The French guys English translation is POORLY DONE

 

not made

Seriously now?

 

You forgot an apostrophe with the possessive case by the way...

 

In my opinion it would be best if Obsidian released the game without localisation but provide a good infrastructure for fan-made translations (modding). Usually those are better - and they cost nothing. Bonus claps if they'd provide some kind of compensation.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Lord_Mord]

I asked Josh about that. If I interpreted that answer correctly he basically said that they do what they can, but they don't have the resources/people to constantly look over the shoulder of their translation companies.

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/175010625571/hi-poe1-2-are-great-games-but-the-german

What I ask myself (I didn't want to ask it on Josh's Tumbler) is why they took the same company again, after what they did to PoE1. I assume it's the same company as the same stupid error (Item names) occured again. Edit: They actually didn't.

 

 

I know it sounds a lot like bickering over something not that important

I think, it's really important. Back in the BG days people complained about the translation being poorly done, just because the company took a few liberties. But everything was understandable and well written (Of course the language in that games was a bit simpler overall). The VO (Yes that game had german VO) was excellent. Montaron for example had Willem Dafoe's german voice. These days the translations are mostly unbearable and people don't even notice. This is true for films, too. What we see here is a degeneration of peoples ability to distinguish good from bad language. You tell someone that this or that sentence sounds odd and get the response: "Why? I can understand what's going on."

 

 

In my opinion it would be best if Obsidian released the game without localisation but provide a good infrastructure for fan-made translations (modding). Usually those are better - and they cost nothing. Bonus claps if they'd provide some kind of compensation.

 

That can't be the way. You can't outsource that kind of stuff to the players. Sooner or later the game companies would assume that as normal. Do you want to wait for every new games fan translation, if it ever gets finished. Once the professional made translations were better than the fan stuff. Somehow the standards for this have to raise again.

I don't expect everything to sound like ****ing Goethe, but every film, game or whatever should be translated in a manner that fits the level of the original text. And the crap we got for PoE1+2 is just highly unworthy of the original.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[theBalthazar]

A simple solution :

 

You use Beta to allow a first look. Like that, you can edit BEFORE release date.

 

But problem, backer beta 1 to 4 haven't different languages, and only on a little area...

 

It is simple if we have the full beta with all languages. Sure, there is a little bias (but not very problematic) : if you have a Balthazar with french, Madscientist for german and others for spanish, there will be a lot of correction. Perhaps less in others languages... But for me, it is always better than that. At least, the most repported languages can have a better translation.

 

Josh said there are QA testers. I think it is a lie, frankly. With the states of few tooltips. No ones could play like that without warn Obsidian. Impossible, there are too much errors.

 

Sadly, translation was be done without context and immediatly integrate to the game, without any verification. It is a fact. A french human cannot not see that if he is a QA Tester.

 

"Non armés armes".

It is like in english i say :

 

"Non weapon weapons" (Unarmed weapons)

Edited June 19, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Manveru123]

 

What I ask myself (I didn't want to ask it on Josh's Tumbler) is why they took the same company again, after what they did to PoE1. I assume it's the same company as the same stupid error (Item names) occured again.

 

Outsourcing to Poland is cheap. In a project like this one, money counts I guess.

 

I also remember the days when Baldur's Gate 2 was translated by professionals in Poland. We got an incredibly good translation, some very popular actors lent their voices (the narrator is remembered fondly to this day, the polish version of "you must gather your party to venture forth" is like a mantra), the quality was immense. I don't think anyone does that for these kind of games anymore

[ilfiniol]

The translation of the history is correct. But the translation of ALL the technical part of the game is a real shame. The same word is used in the french translation for "focus" and "concentration" !!! Come on ! And this is in only an exemple...

Edited June 19, 2018 by ilfiniol

[Lord_Mord]

 

Josh said there are QA testers. I think it is a lie, frankly. With the states of few tooltips. No ones could play like that without warn Obsidian. Impossible, there are too much errors.

 

I think it's true. But he said it was an external team (I think he means external in the sense of they hired a company) and as far as I understood, they haven't had the means to check if they've done a good job. So there was feedback but it was handled poorly/not at all. But I'm not shure if I got that right.

 

 

 

Outsourcing to Poland is cheap.

Waitwaitwait. The italian, spanish and german translation were done in Poland? Is that a fact or just a claim? Come on. A game like Deadfire can only be translated well by natives. There are dialects and stuff in there. No foreign speaker has the sensibility to get that right. Not that they even tried. Even for a native it would be very hard and should be done by real professionals.

 

 

 

I also remember the days when Baldur's Gate 2 was translated by professionals in Poland. We got an incredibly good translation, some very popular actors lent their voices (the narrator is remembered fondly to this day, the polish version of "you must gather your party to venture forth" is like a mantra), the quality was immense.

 

I heard that more than once from different people.

 

Edit: I just listened through the companion voices in polish. Man, they are really great, some of them fit perfectly. Maybe I'm not right in the head, but I'm actually a bit moved. Jan is voiced by Jan.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[ilfiniol]

 

 

Outsourcing to Poland is cheap.

Waitwaitwait. The italian, spanish and german translation were done in Poland? Is that a fact or just a claim? Come on. A game like Deadfire can only be translated well by natives. There are dialects and stuff in there. No foreign speaker has the sensibility to get that right. Not that they even tried. Even for a native it would be very hard and should be done by real professionals.

 

 

 

 

 

A real translation is ALWAYS from a foreign language to a mothertongue language, it's the first rule in professional translation.

But we can find french/german/italien natives in Poland, why not ? A friend of mine who is a french translator works from Portugal...

Edited June 19, 2018 by ilfiniol

[Manveru123]

 

 

 

Outsourcing to Poland is cheap.

Waitwaitwait. The italian, spanish and german translation were done in Poland? Is that a fact or just a claim? Come on. A game like Deadfire can only be translated well by natives. There are dialects and stuff in there. No foreign speaker has the sensibility to get that right. Not that they even tried. Even for a native it would be very hard and should be done by real professionals.

 

It's a fact for POE1. Here's proof if you need it.

 

https://www.giantbomb.com/pillars-of-eternity/3030-39775/credits/

 

QLOC is based in Warsaw.

 

They did Deadfire too, but only Chinese, Polish and Russian. For other languages, blame GameScribes, who are based in the US. Oh, and Red Cerberus (who are based in Brazil and I have no idea which part they did).

 

And they DID use natives. Read my post earlier in this thread. They basically recruit people off the streets and sit them in front of an Excel spreadsheet.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Manveru123

[Lord_Mord]

Edit2: I got you wrong.
 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[Flouride]

 

Josh said there are QA testers. I think it is a lie, frankly. With the states of few tooltips. No ones could play like that without warn Obsidian. Impossible, there are too much errors.

 

Sadly, translation was be done without context and immediatly integrate to the game, without any verification. It is a fact. A french human cannot not see that if he is a QA Tester.

 

Localization QA Testers

 

Amine Ouahabi, Augusto Ferreira, Daria Bloch, Denisse Mallqui, Enrico Sposato, Fabrício Almeida, Filipo Teixeira, Helena Kardash, Holger Schott, Irina Dorabiato, Jean Lucas Bahia, Leonardo Marinho, Magdalena Marciniak, Nello Amadei, Patrícia Amaro, Priscila Vitta, Pedro Nakanish, Raquel Ghazal, Sandra Rodrigo, Thais Bortoletto, Yan Qiao, Yassine Benfaqyrah

 

 

Those were under Red Cerberus. They did the Portuguese version I think.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Flouride

[Flouride]

I asked Josh about that. If I interpreted that answer correctly he basically said that they do what they can, but they don't have the resources/people to constantly look over the shoulder of their translation companies.

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/175010625571/hi-poe1-2-are-great-games-but-the-german

 

What I ask myself (I didn't want to ask it on Josh's Tumbler) is why they took the same company again, after what they did to PoE1. I assume it's the same company as the same stupid error (Item names) occured again.

 

 

 

They used different company this time.

S&H Entertainment Localization did most of the localization for Pillars 1. QLOC did the QA Localization testing.

GameScribes (Italian, Spanish, German and French), QLOC (Chinese, Russian and Polish), Red Cerberus (Portuguese) and H2 Interactive (Korean) on Deadfire.

[Flouride]

 

It's a fact for POE1. Here's proof if you need it.

 

https://www.giantbomb.com/pillars-of-eternity/3030-39775/credits/

 

QLOC is based in Warsaw.

 

They did Deadfire too, but only Chinese, Polish and Russian. For other languages, blame GameScribes, who are based in the US. Oh, and Red Cerberus (who are based in Brazil and I have no idea which part they did).

 

And they DID use natives. Read my post earlier in this thread. They basically recruit people off the streets and sit them in front of an Excel spreadsheet.

 

 

Actually, no. http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/pillars-of-eternity-collectors-edition/credit

 

QLOC did the Localization testing, actual localization was done by a different company.

While GameScribes is based in USA, the actual translators might be living on the Moon. Translating doesn't require you to be at location.

[Manveru123]

Dunno about GameScribes but I can assure you that QLOC has all of their workers on-site. I happen to be an ex-employee, so I kinda have first hand knowledge.

 

Do you know what "localization testing" is? It's that thing where you get raw text, done with Google Translate or on a knee, and you have to translate it into coherent sentences. You then send your work to the developers, they put it into the game, then send it back to you for a re-test. So yeah, the company who did the Google Translate is not really important here: the actual translators are.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Do you know what "localization testing" is? It's that thing where you get raw text, done with Google Translate or on a knee, and you have to translate it into coherent sentences. You then send your work to the developers, they put it into the game, then send it back to you for a re-test. So yeah, the company who did the Google Translate is not really important here: the actual translators are.

Is that really how it works, or do you exaggerate it a bit? Do I understand you correctly that the localization testers get chunks of ****ty text, have to correct them somehow and that's what they call a translation?

[OldViking]

Dunno about GameScribes but I can assure you that QLOC has all of their workers on-site. I happen to be an ex-employee, so I kinda have first hand knowledge.

 

Do you know what "localization testing" is? It's that thing where you get raw text, done with Google Translate or on a knee, and you have to translate it into coherent sentences. You then send your work to the developers, they put it into the game, then send it back to you for a re-test. So yeah, the company who did the Google Translate is not really important here: the actual translators are.

That explains a lot.

 

A well, Germany had a symbol of quality that was worth much around the world "Made in Germany".

Today it is a shallow phrase. Quality work is to much to ask in in these days.

Maybe it's because i am old, but my parents taught me from the start, if you do something do it right or not at all.

[Heijoushin]

Professional translator here. 

If we give these translation companies the benefit of the doubt, they may have been translating with 0 context (just from a spreadsheet, as someone said). Even if you're really good at your second language, jumping in the deep end without any context or any idea what's happening on screen is extremely difficult. Even worse, they may have divided the job between many people. Now you have even less idea what's going because you're doing chapter 3 while another guy is doing chapter 1&2. Add an extra layer of awful if they didn't play PoE1.

On the other hand, if they used non-natives or, heaven forbid, google translate, that's just embarrassing.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Heijoushin

[Lord_Mord]

 

Professional translator here. 

 

If we give these translation companies the benefit of the doubt, they may have been translating with 0 context (just from a spreadsheet, as someone said). Even if you're really good at your second language, jumping in the deep end without any context or any idea what's happening on screen is extremely difficult. Even worse, they may have divided the job between many people. Now you have even less idea what's going because you're doing chapter 3 while another guy is doing chapter 1&2. Add an extra layer of awful if they didn't play PoE1.

 

On the other hand, if they used non-natives or, heaven forbid, google translate, that's just embarrassing.

 

I gave up with the german version during the tutorial. It reads like the translator didn't even know what the current quest was about. As if it was translated line by line in a random order. And not even that was done well. So definitely no benefit from my side. We had the same discussion about PoE1 and at some point I did shut my mouth. But I have enough. This is unbearable and even if it doesn't really affect me, I think it's stupid and wrong. Not even that this attitude leads to people becoming estranged from their languages, it affects how this specific game is viewed. In my opinion this is a quality of storytelling that you hardly see in fantasy games these days, but for a french, german, italian or spanish player it has become impossible to see in what regard this game is better than any of that cheap fantasy crap out there. This should be important to Obisidan.

 

 

 

A well, Germany had a symbol of quality that was worth much around the world "Made in Germany".

Today it is a shallow phrase. Quality work is to much to ask in in these days.

Maybe it's because i am old, but my parents taught me from the start, if you do something do it right or not at all.

 

Stichwort Dieselskandal.

 

I thought that too, when I read how translations are done these days: Am I really that old?

Edited June 19, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[xzar_monty]

A real translation is ALWAYS from a foreign language to a mothertongue language, it's the first rule in professional translation.

 

This is not true. Although I agree that it is generally best to translate into your first language, this is by no means a rule. I, for instance, have translated quite a lot of stuff into English, which is not my first language.

 

Just think of writers like Joseph Conrad or Vladimir Nabokov who happen to be some of the most remarkable users of the English language of the past 150 years. They were not natives. Or, just think of any internet forum and how they demonstrate to you that a stunningly large proportion of native English speakers have a very tenuous grasp on the only language they know.

 

Besides, it's not as if PoE represents ambitious, extremely well-written English that is demanding to translate. I am happy to admit that there are good ideas there and the writing is by no means bad, but in terms of challenge and literary quality, it's fairly straightforward and easy stuff.

[Abel]

I would just ask a question: whose responsability is it to give the translators the actual context needed?

 

In Pillars 1, there is a quest in Gilded Vale (I think). If i remember correctly, you have to ring bells in a certain order at some point. In order to do so, you have clues, written in a journal which you have in the inventory (or something like that). In french version (and i bet in others too) this journal did not make any sense. It was confusing and nonsensical. Had to switch to the english version to get things right.

 

I agree with Lord Mord. There are many occurences when sentences do not even make sense. And it's not only in the UI or tooltips. Sometimes, it's the same in raw dialogue text.

 

If Obsidian does not provide their texts with actual notes intented to various translators to help them understand what they are translating is all about, isn't that the responsability of Obs too? Are they really giving just raw text to translators, without giving any effort to help them have a clue of what they are translating? Regarding the UI? it would need screenshots, at least, and notes about how mechanics are working, roughly. So that we don't have this

 

 

"Non armés armes".

It is like in english i say :

 

"Non weapon weapons" (Unarmed weapons)

 

This is unbelievably embarrassing. This makes Obs look like, well, not even a 3rd rate company. Actually, i would translate this by "non armed weapons". But with an atrocious mistake. Since "armes" is a f.noun, "armés" should be written "armées". The nonsensical translation mistake is not even done correctly. You learn how to write correctly the participe passé agreeing to the genre and number of the noun in 2nd and 3rd grade. I know it for sure. I worked 2 years in elementary school.

 

The club is equiped >>> Le gourdin est équipé (because club is masculine)

3 clubs are equiped >>> 3 gourdins sont équipés ("s" is added because there are more than 1)

The sword is equiped >>> L'épée est équipée (because sword is a feminine noun, not masculine)

3 swords are equiped >>> 3 épées sont équipées (same, because there are 3 of them >>> +"s")

They equiped 3 swords >>> Ils ont équipé 3 épées (because when it is ''avoir'' (ont), to the difference from when it is "etre" (est) like before, participe passé (équipé) does not agree anymore)

Here is the sword i equiped >>> Voici l'épée que j'ai équipée (because even if there is "avoir" and not "être", in this sentence "épée" is before "ai" (avoir), not after like before, and thus if the word which answers the question "What is it i have equiped?" is before "avoir", then participe passé (équipée) agree.

 

Well, may be boring, but this is basic french, learnt in grade school. Whoever can't even understand these basic rules should not even pretend to be a translator. Makes me angry.

 

Is the problem Obs is not willing to pay enough for a good translation that would take some more time to finish? Because Obsidian doesn't care and is not willing to provide the translators with the things they need to contextualize the raw text? Because they think that as long as the US version is ok, other people can just go ahead and get ****ed by a camel if they want? Is it because the translators get the text to translate too late to have the time to do a good job? Because of schedule constraints? Because the companies who translate the games are rotten and they will just take the money and don't give a **** anymore? Because tanslators are bad? Because companies like QLOC want to pay their translators as little as possible and would recruit anyone, except actual skilled people who would cost more?

 

I don't know... But here is one guess nonetheless. You can't achieve such an unbelievable mess, unless everyone involved is willing to help out achieving it.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Abel

[xzar_monty]

Abel: The likely problem, I would say, is that Obsidian doesn't really care, doesn't pay properly, doesn't give enough time for the translators, doesn't care who the translators are and isn't qualified to make sure whether the translation makes any sense. Consequently, the translators make an awful mess in an awful hurry, and get paid very little.

 

It's heartbreaking.

[Manveru123]

 

 

Do you know what "localization testing" is? It's that thing where you get raw text, done with Google Translate or on a knee, and you have to translate it into coherent sentences. You then send your work to the developers, they put it into the game, then send it back to you for a re-test. So yeah, the company who did the Google Translate is not really important here: the actual translators are.

Is that really how it works, or do you exaggerate it a bit? Do I understand you correctly that the localization testers get chunks of ****ty text, have to correct them somehow and that's what they call a translation?

 

Basically yes. But you all have to understand something. The translators often don't have context because of one important thing - TIME. They have goals that have to be met on schedule. In a big game like PoE, there is often no time to properly play the game to see the text "in action". There is nothing Obsidian can provide (I think) that could help them visualize the whole game, they would have to just play it. Often they cooperate with functionality QA testers, ask them about stuff they are unsure about etc (the fun we had when trying to translate "Cipher" to Polish :D Oh dear god) but this is not really required of them, because actually playing the game is what functionality QA is for. Often, the best they can do in limited time they have is to try to make every sentence have sense. The reason why some translations are better than others purely depends on the person who did the translation. I don't really blame Obsidian. Like I said, Polish version is more or less fine. I heard Russian is ok too?

[ilfiniol]

 

A real translation is ALWAYS from a foreign language to a mothertongue language, it's the first rule in professional translation.

 

This is not true. Although I agree that it is generally best to translate into your first language, this is by no means a rule. I, for instance, have translated quite a lot of stuff into English, which is not my first language.

 

This may not be true abroad, but in France, in translator studies, it's what you learn.

[Lord_Mord]

 

 

 I heard Russian is ok too?

 

At least for Poe1 it was. My wife switched to Russian, because it was easier to understand even considering the fact that her russian is far worse than her perfect german. I convinced her that for Deadfire english is the only real option

[xzar_monty]

 

 

A real translation is ALWAYS from a foreign language to a mothertongue language, it's the first rule in professional translation.

 

This is not true. Although I agree that it is generally best to translate into your first language, this is by no means a rule. I, for instance, have translated quite a lot of stuff into English, which is not my first language.

 

This may not be true abroad, but in France, in translator studies, it's what you learn.

 

 

Whether something is true or not does not depend on the country where you are. If this is what is taught in France, it doesn't make it true. It may also be the first rule in professional translation in France, which is fine with me, but even this does not make it true. (I would go so far as to argue that any proper discipline should also encourage its students to question the discipline itself, just to keep themselves from becoming too dogmatic.)

 

It's perfectly sensible to start with the idea that translations should be done into one's native language. But translating into other languages, too, is not only a possibility, it is also something that people do incredibly well.

 

But, I agree, this is slightly off-topic.

[gloomseeker]

 

 

 

A real translation is ALWAYS from a foreign language to a mothertongue language, it's the first rule in professional translation.

 

This is not true. Although I agree that it is generally best to translate into your first language, this is by no means a rule. I, for instance, have translated quite a lot of stuff into English, which is not my first language.

 

This may not be true abroad, but in France, in translator studies, it's what you learn.

 

 

Whether something is true or not does not depend on the country where you are. If this is what is taught in France, it doesn't make it true. It may also be the first rule in professional translation in France, which is fine with me, but even this does not make it true. (I would go so far as to argue that any proper discipline should also encourage its students to question the discipline itself, just to keep themselves from becoming too dogmatic.)

 

It's perfectly sensible to start with the idea that translations should be done into one's native language. But translating into other languages, too, is not only a possibility, it is also something that people do incredibly well.

 

But, I agree, this is slightly off-topic.

 

 

For the record I'm French and what my compatriot says is true. 

 

In order to gain employment in France you have to translate in your native tongue. 

 

I personally think it is stupid because in order to translate accurately you first need to fully understand the original (and yes context is key). 

 

Charles Baudelaire did such a magnificent job translating Edgar Allan Poe's stories that they are probably even more enjoyable in French than in the original English (but a genius translating the work of another genius is a truly unique situation). 

 

Back on topic in all likelihood the translators who did the job here probably didn't get any context and most of them were probably freelance translators. It's all a matter of managing costs and frankly there is nothing remotely glorious about a gig like that.