Casit

[Nemesis7884]

I mean... the bonus to deflection is now 1/4 of intimidation.... lol so youll get something like +1 to MAYBE +5 to deflection at the very top level from the intimidation scaling... lol.... the armor was interesting but hardly op before, now its a complete waste of space - why not just delete the item? Spending all your skill points on one skill to get a meger bonus.

 

This is just one example but honestly, item balancing is so f* up and needs SO much work.

 

The game doesn't have too many unique items to begin with and if you make half of them useless even fewer...there should be really a better balancing between the items that make them all about "equally" interesting for different builds.... a +5 TOP deflection bonus isn't even interesting even if you wanted to make a deflection build over other armors that give other better bonuses that have nothing to do with deflection...and if something like this is the case you clearly messed up your balancing

 

And putting 5% and 10% bonuses or probablities on items are just not fun to use im sorry...if i want to use a probability item with cool effects i want to see its effect reasonably often - it's just no fun, also all the cuts to action speed because people like watching idle animations so much...

 

I guess the item balacing team had the task" how can we make things less interesting and less fun" - mission accomplished

Edited June 10, 2018 by Nemesis7884

[dunehunter]

But all deflection bonus stacks, so I like their nerf to all deflection gears. It still gives u extra will deflense plus the deflection bonus, so not a bad choice, not even useless as OP claimed.

[Myztik]

All of the people whining about item changes think battles are in some sort of vacuum with one player with one item equipped ignoring all the other equipment + party bonuses + spell synergies that when added together make the game easier

[omgFIREBALLS]

It adds 5 deflection even with 0 Intimidate. That's like wearing a shield.

[Boeroer]

It adds 5 deflection even with 0 Intimidate. That's like wearing a shield.

This. And since all item bonuses stack it's a nice armor to have for somebody who wants to invest in deflection.

[Nemesis7884]

yea it gives 5 deflection like a shield - but a shield gives a whole lot of other bonuses while the armor doesn't - compare this to other armors like carocs, gipon or flesh mender or garari and you're telling me they are well balanced?

[Boeroer]

The deflection of the armor (up to +10) stacks with a shield's deflection bonus. They are not mutually exclusive. Each point of deflection has increasing returns the higher you go (compared to enemies' ACC). So for a high-deflection character this armor is still very good. For other builds the deflection bonus is negligible, sure. It doesn't matter that much if you have 50 or 60 deflection. Take something else. But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

 

I can't say yet if it's well balanced now but it definitely was too strong pre 1.1.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[Nemesis7884]

The deflection of the armor (up to +10) stacks with a shield's deflection bonus. They are not mutually exclusive. Each point of deflection has increasing returns the higher you go (compared to enemies' ACC). So for a high-deflection character this armor is still very good. For other builds the deflection bonus is negligible, sure. It doesn't matter that much if you have 50 or 60 deflection. Take something else. But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

 

I can't say yet if it's well balanced now but it definitely was too strong pre 1.1.

 

i understand this but still i do think it was wrong just nerfing everything equally, they should have nerved stuff that was too strong more and buff other etc... i do think the armor was nerved to much compared to other armors

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

Some more Deflection nerfs would be appropiate. *cough* Paladin next *cough*

[Lokithecat]

I mean... the bonus to deflection is now 1/4 of intimidation.... lol so youll get something like +1 to MAYBE +5 to deflection at the very top level from the intimidation scaling... lol.... the armor was interesting but hardly op before, now its a complete waste of space - why not just delete the item? Spending all your skill points on one skill to get a meger bonus.

 

 

The problem, which caused the nerf in the first place....  was that Jackasses would build min max characters, 'spending all their skill points on one skill' to get a massive bonus.  That bonus was so broken, they've crippled it.  Now, a min max build gets a 'meager' bonus, and a balanced build get virtually no bonus.

[ErlKing]

Easy solution is for these skill bonuses to be capped. Let it be +1 deflection per point of Intimidate, but only up to 5 or 10. Same with other skill scaling items.

[Braven]

Some more Deflection nerfs would be appropiate. *cough* Paladin next *cough*

Paladin was nerfed. Passive is now max 15 with deep faith instead of 21 like before.

 

I agree that skill scaling items should be capped instead of just requiring more skill points.

 

It is still possible to stack defenses such that enemies can’t hit you. I have done so even without paladin. (Monk/Wizard). While some items, like the skill scaling were nerfed, others were not nerfed. Notably ones that require “bloodied”. Turns out being bloodied or near death is no problem if enemies can’t hit you at all so those items really only help a min/max and do very little for a balanced build.

[dunehunter]

Paladin is like one trick pony, you get all good stuff at lvl 1 and then the rest of abilities are all team support ones, so nerfing either FoD, Lay on Hand or Faith and Conviction hurt it's foundation.

[Shadenuat]

 

But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

Most players wouldn't have 200-210 deflection so that extra +5 looks weak to them. If you balance most items around total stacking and power builds these items will all look unattractive to 99% of players.

[Nemesis7884]

instead of setting a hard cap i like the idea of diminishing returns...which makes lorewise more sense than a hard cap...for example until you hit +XX deflection its 1:1 than 1:0.5 than 1:0.25 etc. etc.... i think that makes more sense, still allows a niche build but at the same time a jack of all trades

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The deflection of the armor (up to +10) stacks with a shield's deflection bonus. They are not mutually exclusive. Each point of deflection has increasing returns the higher you go (compared to enemies' ACC). So for a high-deflection character this armor is still very good. For other builds the deflection bonus is negligible, sure. It doesn't matter that much if you have 50 or 60 deflection. Take something else. But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

 

I can't say yet if it's well balanced now but it definitely was too strong pre 1.1.

Just out.of curiosity, do we know what the max deflection build is yet? Can you actually reach 200 deflection or is the functional cap closer to like 120?

[Shadenuat]

Around 200 is max I think, made around Wizard Double spell.

[Usana]

I agree that the items should be diminishing return based(and that the exact values should be easier to see/discern). I mean skills already have a diminishing return deal with the party assist. Just implement that. That would effectively cap bonuses at +8 if you managed to drive up to 29 in that skill. More realistically folks would have +4-+7 depending on if they heavily invested or just invested little. I think that would be better. Though tweaking exactly how it worked with a particular bonus may be needed. But this way folks don't have to go all in to get a decent bonus and characters suffer a little less for being 'actual' characters rather than min/maxed puppets.

[Boeroer]

 

But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

Most players wouldn't have 200-210 deflection so that extra +5 looks weak to them. If you balance most items around total stacking and power builds these items will all look unattractive to 99% of players.

+10. The armor itself gives +5 right from the start and can go up to +10 with enough skill points. +10 is a great value for an armor.

 

200 was an extreme example. Every tank would profit from +10 to deflection from something that's not a cape, weapon, a shield or a ring. I don't think that this item is only useful for 1% of builds. It's useful for every build that has decent deflection - so most tanks.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

It's still a decent item. I tend to lean towards the "if you put ALL your skill points into X, it *should* be powerful" line of thinking though. 

 

I think there was a broad decision to make "across the board" nerfs to ALL items that gave bonuses based on skills invested. 5 base +5, ok, not necessarily underpowered, but I'm not sure  5 base +10 was either, given the big character investment necesssary.

[Braven]

 

The deflection of the armor (up to +10) stacks with a shield's deflection bonus. They are not mutually exclusive. Each point of deflection has increasing returns the higher you go (compared to enemies' ACC). So for a high-deflection character this armor is still very good. For other builds the deflection bonus is negligible, sure. It doesn't matter that much if you have 50 or 60 deflection. Take something else. But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

 

I can't say yet if it's well balanced now but it definitely was too strong pre 1.1.

Just out.of curiosity, do we know what the max deflection build is yet? Can you actually reach 200 deflection or is the functional cap closer to like 120?

I have gotten over 230, however you start really giving up other defenses at around 215 and that is really enough deflection anyway.

 

Getting those numbers certainly takes some cheese, like never resting and stacking one-time bonuses that expire on rest.

 

The hardest part is increasing the other defenses which is particularly important if using Wizard’s Double. Reflex and Will are fairly easy to boost up, but fortitude can be hard. This is why I think that helwalker monk / wizard is able to get the best overall defenses. 10 wounds provides 40 fortitude making it superior to paladin, particularly with the F&C nerf. I also use the pet that provides +7 fortitude instead of one that helps deflection. I plan to post a build showing how to do it, but still playing through with it.

 

Another advantage of monk is that you can purposely hurt yourself to lower your health to a very low amount safely. Some items provide scaling benefits based on your remaining health (more benefit the less you have). For example, there is a large shield that provides up to 20 bonus deflection based on remaining health. Getting it to 18-19 makes it quite a bit better than the one based on Athletics.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Braven

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

The deflection of the armor (up to +10) stacks with a shield's deflection bonus. They are not mutually exclusive. Each point of deflection has increasing returns the higher you go (compared to enemies' ACC). So for a high-deflection character this armor is still very good. For other builds the deflection bonus is negligible, sure. It doesn't matter that much if you have 50 or 60 deflection. Take something else. But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

 

I can't say yet if it's well balanced now but it definitely was too strong pre 1.1.

Just out.of curiosity, do we know what the max deflection build is yet? Can you actually reach 200 deflection or is the functional cap closer to like 120?

I have gotten over 230, however you start really giving up other defenses at around 215 and that is really enough deflection anyway.

 

Getting those numbers certainly takes some cheese, like never resting and stacking one-time bonuses that expire on rest.

 

The hardest part is increasing the other defenses which is particularly important if using Wizard’s Double. Reflex and Will are fairly easy to boost up, but fortitude can be hard. This is why I think that helwalker monk / wizard is able to get the best overall defenses. 10 wounds provides 40 fortitude making it superior to paladin, particularly with the F&C nerf. I also use the pet that provides +7 fortitude instead of one that helps deflection. I plan to post a build showing how to do it, but still playing through with it.

 

Another advantage of monk is that you can purposely hurt yourself to lower your health to a very low amount safely. Some items provide scaling benefits based on your remaining health (more benefit the less you have). For example, there is a large shield that provides up to 20 bonus deflection based on remaining health. Getting it to 18-19 makes it quite a bit better than the one based on Athletics.

 

 

 

Yow. I take it that's mostly from class abilities? What items were you using?

 

I'm kinda wondering what the max deflection I could get on one of the standard companions is (for Defensive Mindweb purposes).

[dunehunter]

 

 

The deflection of the armor (up to +10) stacks with a shield's deflection bonus. They are not mutually exclusive. Each point of deflection has increasing returns the higher you go (compared to enemies' ACC). So for a high-deflection character this armor is still very good. For other builds the deflection bonus is negligible, sure. It doesn't matter that much if you have 50 or 60 deflection. Take something else. But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

 

I can't say yet if it's well balanced now but it definitely was too strong pre 1.1.

Just out.of curiosity, do we know what the max deflection build is yet? Can you actually reach 200 deflection or is the functional cap closer to like 120?

I have gotten over 230, however you start really giving up other defenses at around 215 and that is really enough deflection anyway.

 

Getting those numbers certainly takes some cheese, like never resting and stacking one-time bonuses that expire on rest.

 

The hardest part is increasing the other defenses which is particularly important if using Wizard’s Double. Reflex and Will are fairly easy to boost up, but fortitude can be hard. This is why I think that helwalker monk / wizard is able to get the best overall defenses. 10 wounds provides 40 fortitude making it superior to paladin, particularly with the F&C nerf. I also use the pet that provides +7 fortitude instead of one that helps deflection. I plan to post a build showing how to do it, but still playing through with it.

 

Another advantage of monk is that you can purposely hurt yourself to lower your health to a very low amount safely. Some items provide scaling benefits based on your remaining health (more benefit the less you have). For example, there is a large shield that provides up to 20 bonus deflection based on remaining health. Getting it to 18-19 makes it quite a bit better than the one based on Athletics.

 

 

Mind share your screenshot where u get 230 deflection? Am curious how it can be so high.

[knownastherat]

 

 

But it matters if you have 200 or 210. +10 on an armor is actually pretty good in this case.

Most players wouldn't have 200-210 deflection so that extra +5 looks weak to them. If you balance most items around total stacking and power builds these items will all look unattractive to 99% of players.

+10. The armor itself gives +5 right from the start and can go up to +10 with enough skill points. +10 is a great value for an armor.

 

200 was an extreme example. Every tank would profit from +10 to deflection from something that's not a cape, weapon, a shield or a ring. I don't think that this item is only useful for 1% of builds. It's useful for every build that has decent deflection - so most tanks.

 

 

First of all, the game tooltip should state clearly how it scales.

 

Secondly, the way I read the statement you quoted is: +5 it's not worth to bother with simply because for the vast majority of players it's inconsequential. 

 

Lastly, when I say something like: everyone profits from +1 deflection, it is an irrefutable statement. The point here, however, is that for a heavy investment one gets very little in return.

 

Lets consider following example: Player A buys PoE Deadfire, as soon as s/he finds Cadhu Scalth, which is pretty early, reads its description: Heavy Shard: +3 Deflection (improves with Atheltic skill). S/he continues playing, investing everything in Athletics because s/he wants the improvement, only to find out at the end that with Athletics at max. s/he got 5 points extra deflection. I do not know about her/him but I would be quite disappointed, despite +5 Deflection is useful for every tank.

 

This reminds me of the infamous "lootboxes" .. has a chance to contain this or that. It never says what the chance is because if it would, they would not sell as well as they do. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by knownastherat

[Boeroer]

But that's a problem of proper description and explanation (like a tooltip that shows the scaling), not a problem of the nerf or the item per se. This armor can give you +10 stacking deflection on top of other deflection gear - which can be *very* useful for builds that rely on deflection. Nobody said that this armor should be supercool for every character. It would become a no brainer. And those are boring and a hint that the balance is off.

 

If an item is not useful for every build but only for some (like tanks) that's totally ok. It's just a problem if an item is of no use for everybody.

 

Besides that I would like those enchantments that improve combat stats via skill scaling to go entirely. I find them impossible to balance and also silly. If you can't find other meaningful uses for a skill - remove it, too.

 

I also find it pretty bad that spells like Plague of Insects scales with Alchemy. That's unnecessary and silly. Abilities shouldn't scale with skills.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Boeroer