The Real and Deep Problem of Single Class...

[theBalthazar]

I just finished a playthrough with a lot of single...

 

Naturally I wasn't attracted by single. I know it was bad but I still tested it completely. I have understand a lot of thing.

 

Ascertainement.

 

1) I am a single Priest.

 

2) I have 2 spells to cast (ressources) by spell level (1 to 9).

 

3) I have more spell to choose than multiclass each level up.

 

4) I have the same number of ressource (2) than multiclass.

 

4) But number of spell is opposite to number of possible uses. (If I have 999 differents spells and only 2 uses...)

 

To conclude, there is absolutely no argument to take a single priest. Each level of spell don't changing the world. (was not the case with devotion for the faithful at 20 accuracy. Got sooner = G.G. = eventual interrest of single class)

 

Few idea to improve single class :

 

1) Casting time / 2 for single. 6s of casting ? 3s of casting time ! You can buff far quicker ! Good !

 

2) +1 spell ressource by spell level. (2 now = 3)

 

3) Reworking the level 8-9. Awful.

 

4) Two uses of Empower on encounter.

 

With that : I buy it. A single priest worth it. If not : poop.

Edited June 9, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Tigranes]

I agree single classes are not good enough, but that's because (1) you level up quickly enough that being behind is not a big problem (same as Drow, etc. in IWD2), and (2) even with multiclass, options are limited enough that you usually can take every feat you want.

 

Your buffs are far too strong, though. Empower is already a broken and silly I Win Button for casters. Maybe adjust how powerful your spells actually are when you cast them - e.g. bonus spell accuracy or penetration options? Maybe have some new feats that you can only take as a single-class?

[rjshae]

Hmm. Well, the OP neglects to mention that single-class Priest gains access to higher level spells and abilities more rapidly than multi-class, which is THE main reason to go single-classed in the first place.

[ntbittle]

Hmm. Well, the OP neglects to mention that single-class Priest gains access to higher level spells and abilities more rapidly than multi-class, which is THE main reason to go single-classed in the first place.

 

Exactly this.  Getting faster access to each level spells AND access to the highest level spells is a HUGE difference.

[theBalthazar]

Access to what ? : p

 

What is the spell that is so crazy ?

 

An this/theses spell are = to a complete other class ?...

[evilcat]

Priest is interesting example, since it is not the best class.

1. Holy Radiance is not that strong, and does not change with deity.

2. Selection of spells is smaller than wizard. You dont have too many spells to choose from.

3. Some spells are not that great. And whole tiers (like 5th) are questionable.

4. You dont have passives to spend levelpoints. So when MC you just dump your level points on something useful.

5. Heals&Buffs is good for MC, since you dont care for powerlevel. Paladin/Chanter/Lifegiver +/Priest is not bad as support.

 

In comparison Wizards have 18 free spells, many more deity lists, and could swap them mid combat. Also suffer from not enought passives. But could dump levelpoints on: secondary damage type, life draining spell, single target, CC option, personal defense. Priests dont really have so many situacional spells to choose from.

 

It could be better to buff first individual classes as single too each other, and then look at MC.

Priest probably deserve own topic with deep and real feedback.

 

What could be done:

Make the Cake, at tier VIII and IX make abillities/passives which are good and have capstone vibe. Maybe MC will still be better, but single class will get something good and desired.

some more passives could be neutral from level 1, could kick toughness here

More neutral passives so you can dump redutant levelpoints on something useful

Generally give each  class 30 worthy level points, which work well together. So you can go single, and dont feel you have so many spare level points.

buff tier 5 priest spells

for martial classes with pool (Rogue, Paladin and such) move more active abilities at tier 1, so we could choose else than cripping strike. But move upgrades more back.

For martial classes add, move "Zeal on Kill" passive to tier VIII

Buff abillities which sucks (telemetry shows which one)

Do not random nerf what is not broken. (That spirit weapon nerf...)

Tier VIII passive "can use empowerment twice in combat" is not bad

Priest, Wizard, Druid could have line of passives at tier 1-4 "+1 cast on that tier".

All classes having deep pockets from tier 1, dont be classist, wizards have deep pockets to. Even if you run out of resource you can always drop the bomb or scroll it down.

 

MC in general

70% playe single anyway, so MC power is secret

If you take weaker class and MC with stronger, the result should be stronger.

You can play Helwaker/Wizard, or Helwaker, or just Wizard any combination is good, but hard to tell it is totally better.

Single class gets cool stuff sooner, or have enought good class abillities so you dont have spare levelpoints anyway

having build coming together at level 20 is a bit late

Some classes have inner mechanic which favours MC somehow, mostly Ciphers and Chanter, and thinking too hard to "fix it" will end bad. So just make sure that tiers VIII and IX have the cake, and move on.

Skald, Shifter, SoulBlade looks like something good to multiclass by design.

it is hard to nerf specific MC without making single class at least more annoying. And it is waste to first introduce MC to then nerf it out, when minority uses it anyway.

Edited June 11, 2018 by evilcat

[Shadenuat]

Priest needs better spells and skill tree. That's it.

[gkathellar]

To echo and perhaps speak a bit more harshly than evilcat, priest is an absolutely terrible example and, in general, I would hesitate to generalize about the experience of playing any one of the eleven classes.

[powerofvoid]

I agree single classes are not good enough, but that's because (1) you level up quickly enough that being behind is not a big problem (same as Drow, etc. in IWD2), and (2) even with multiclass, options are limited enough that you usually can take every feat you want.

 

#2 is something I definitely noticed. For classes that aren't full-casters, there are levels where you expect to take more than half  of the abilities available at that level, and if some of those don't really suit your build, or just feel like total pants? You're SOL unless you're multiclassed to something with better options (for you). Casters only get around this if most of their spells are worth taking.

 

The solution is to make more abilities that are worth taking, for each class. This can be a combinations of:

• Adding new abilities
• Adding worthwhile upgrades to existing abilities
• Making some existing abilities available to more classes
• Buffing abilities that are weak

Basically, I think every subclass should have enough different worthwhile-for-them abilities per power level that they have to make a choice at *every* level between abilities that they would really like to have. Even when retraining.

 

e.g.:

• the four weapon style abilities are basically one choice: either you pick your preferred weapon style, or you don't.
• Something like "tumbling" (+20 defense vs disengagement) only matters if you plan to disengage and have good enough deflection that with it you can safely disengage and don't have so much deflection that you don't need it. If you aren't all those things? It's basically not there.

Edited June 9, 2018 by powerofvoid

[QuiteGoneJin]

Builds that come together early, lvl 8-10 are probably best suited for this game's fun factor. Having insanely op build for the last fight but having to drudge you're way through 80 hours of crap to get there is not worth it (for me).  If by the time I'm cleaning up the mess under a certain city and I am not having fun, I restart. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by QuiteGoneJin

[theBalthazar]

Question : there are equipement for increase the number of spells each spell level ?

 

Actually there is only 2 ressources/spell level.

 

Wizard have few grimoire with +1.

 

Does this exist for priest in the game ? (I don't pay attention)

Edited June 10, 2018 by theBalthazar

[sterrius]

im quite happy with aloth as a single mage.  So many spells to get that i feel going multiclass only limits him. (And i dont go many casters in my party so i rather have him casting spells instead of shooting or hitting someone). 

 

i think the problem is more the priest class 

 

Also some other classes do have a lv or two where they get rather weak and they too deserve some love there to make all levels interesting. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by sterrius

[gloomseeker]

Builds that come together early, lvl 8-10 are probably best suited for this game's fun factor. Having insanely op build for the last fight but having to drudge you're way through 80 hours of crap to get there is not worth it (for me).  If by the time I'm cleaning up the mess under a certain city and I am not having fun, I restart. 

 

Agreed.

 

Builds that only achieve their potential by the time the game is over are probably pointless. 

 

In BG2 some powergaming builds only worked because there were ways to get around some limitations. There is a reason why to these days so many people keep raving about Kensai dualled to Mage or Thief but do not have anything to say about the lower level Kensai single class in BG1.

 

Now when it comes to Deadfire as far as I know the main reason to take a single class is to unlock the bottom of the skill tree a bit sooner. I've only played the game once and I had doubts about some of my choices as I first believed I had made a mistake going for a multiclass main but with hindsight my understanding is that you lose some high level abilities but you have a lot to gain by going for a multiclass character. Sure, they take a little bit longer to get into their own but they provide many more options if you accept the trade off. In my case that was giving up on Heart of Fury with my Barbarian in exchange for all these Fighter abilities that helped me throughout the game. 

[theBalthazar]

You have early 8-10 with single but you have double ressources and double variety with multiclass.

 

1) You're casting speed and ressources are the same.

2) You have more highter choice, yes, but frankly : Pillars is the game where each step is totally different ? Very often, you have a better ability line 2 or 3, when a line 5 is just "OK".

3) Obsidian nerf all trumps cards of all classes recently. Result : There is no true "shock point" for single class (not anymore). (Like : Before, quick quick for devotion for the faithful ! Now : Ok it is just a spell give up +5 accuracy when you have an aura. "Not bad"... But game changing ? no...)

 

So, yes recent nerf, touch far more single class than multi.

 

-> Anyone to tell me if an item exist to increase priest ressources ?

Edited June 10, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Palas]

Hmm, there was a ring with one or two extra spells for priests, but i do not use it.

 

If u use a full party, i can't understand the complains about the priest. My wael priest did a good job. He was not the monsterslayer (except against vessels, i love that level 8 anti vessel spell), but thats not his job. He can weaken foes, heals and protects the party against affliction, and have some nice offensive spells. Even a good summon on later levels. I think especially for hard fights a priest is useful.

 

I think for pure casters like the wizard and priest the loss of powerlevels and high trier spells is heavy.

[Elric Galad]

At level 1, Multi Class get twice the ressources of SIngle Class.

At level 20, Pure Martial Multi Class  get excactly 1.5x ressource of Single Class if Martial classes are considered.
Multi Class Chanters and Ciphers get exactly the same ressources as their Single Class counter class plus whatever benefit they get from the other class.

For casters, it's harder to evaluate since PL8 and PL9 casts are highly valuable. 

 

Multiclass trade 2-3 PL for roughly 1.5x-2x ressources. I think it is OK that multiclass get more ressources but I feel the gap is quite wide and discourage the use of multiple active abilities.

 

PL are very significant for casters so it is probably not that bad overall. Maybe a couple of low PL bonus cast ?

Martial single class could get a bit more ressource (something between 1-3) at Level 1 or from leveling.
Cipher and Chanter single class should get some special bonus to get a bit more ressource than their single class counterpart at Level 1 or from leveling.

But that's just my opinion.

[Braven]

Because multiclassing was one of the new features everyone was looking forward too, I think the devs over-tuned that option so that players would be encouraged to try it out without feeling they were gimping themselves or missing out.

 

Just making the 8-9 tier powers stronger relative to lower level ones is probably the easiest way to make single class more powerful without significantly altering the game mechanics.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Braven

[Loren Tyr]

Rather than slowing down multiclass level advancement, it might be better to up the resources single class characters get. Making it even slower I think hurts the multiclasses too much, and you start to run out of low-level abilities to pick as well. And conversely, it's always seemed strange to me that multi-classes get more resources, at a given level than single class (more so with generic resources than spells, but even so). Makes more sense to (more or less) fix the amount of resource per level, and just split that across two pools for multi and put it all in the same for single (again obviously a bit different for spells, but a reasonable formula should be straightforward; maybe three per level instead of two, perhaps getting the third a bit later). 

 

Boosting the late game powers more would be nice as well mind you. But I think there needs to be more difference from the start to really balance it out.

[Sacred Nym]

Rather than slowing down multiclass level advancement, it might be better to up the resources single class characters get. Making it even slower I think hurts the multiclasses too much, and you start to run out of low-level abilities to pick as well. And conversely, it's always seemed strange to me that multi-classes get more resources, at a given level than single class (more so with generic resources than spells, but even so). Makes more sense to (more or less) fix the amount of resource per level, and just split that across two pools for multi and put it all in the same for single (again obviously a bit different for spells, but a reasonable formula should be straightforward; maybe three per level instead of two, perhaps getting the third a bit later). 

 

Boosting the late game powers more would be nice as well mind you. But I think there needs to be more difference from the start to really balance it out.

I agree. Especially in the case of the "vancian" casters. If I'm not getting anything anything out of the tier 8/9 spells and I'm not looking to beeline to specific spell(s) ASAP then single class holds absolutely no value. And this is absolutely the case with Priest for sure 100% of the time. If Empower or Salvo get any nerfs in the coming patches it will probably be the case for Wizards too. Multiclass builds should be far more about specialization than they currently are. As it stands I think even the worst built multiclass is only neglibly behind the best built single class, and that single class builds can end up far worse than even that.

 

I think a good start to dealing with this might be giving Single Classes an extra ability point at level 1, buffing Prestige, and reworking Great Soul into more empower/encounter rather than the pointless thing it currently is. But that's just my gut reaction.

[sterrius]

giving a few more points to single class (Just a few) and stronger lv8-9 skills would be enough to make single class balanced to multi.  (Plus getting things sooner). 

 

Everytime i have to decide about multi/single, specially with companions is if the lv8 and 9 is worth giving up all those extra combos and skills i can get going multi. 

 

Most of the time unfortunaly going lv8 and 9 is not worth it.  Too few skills that make a real difference there outside of casters. 

 

 

One classic example is the warrior.  Does the lv8 and 9 warrior levels really shine against everything, lets say, a paladin can give if your aim is tanking? 
Not even close. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by sterrius

[dunehunter]

Fighter, Paladin's lvl 8, 9 abilities are meh, there's little reason to single class them.

 

Rogue is weird because his lvl 8, 9 abilities are OK, but... Gambit is a bad design because it excludes you from using other abilities. It's a 100% refundable ability when u have 10+ Guile, which result in you can just respec and remove all your other active abilities. The ability itself is not bad, but it's bad in the rogue tree.

 

Ranger lvl 8 abilities are good after new patch, lvl 9 is meh.

 

Barb lvl 8, 9 abilities are good.

 

Monk has insane lvl 8, 9 abilities even after nerf.

 

Chanter has summon drake, no doubt how powerful it is. The 12 jump Tornado is also very powerful.

 

Single class wizard is very strong, same as priest. They still dominate the later game with their empowered AOE blasts. Those who said single class Priest is weak, you shall try the lvl 8, 9 empowered blasts, they are really good.

 

Cipher is meh honestly, except Ascendent who spam Time Parasite.

 

Druid to me is like an inferior version of wizard, that's all.

Edited June 11, 2018 by dunehunter

[evilcat]

Extra effort to nerf multiclass would be a waste of resources.

 

What can be done, quick:

30 worthy upgrades +extras per class. You can go single, spend your 28 points and it will be good. Need some abillity upgrade variant, or abillities which you can take instead cripping strike, but overall you dont end "I took everything good, and still have 10 points"

The Cake, some very good (not OP) abillities at tier VIII and IX. Like Zeal on Kill, or Stun for Fun, Shake it Off, NotBroken Will, Inspiring Presence.

 

Rogue Berzerker will be glassier cannon. And Wizard/Fighter is just different archetype. But it is more about feelings that we got something, and it is unique.

[Khagmas]

Maybe can solve the problem by adding new skills to the last 2 columns ( tier 8-9 ) inaccessible to multiclasses:

These skills can increase its maximum resource on 2-4 scores for solo classes of Paladins, Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, Rangers and Rogues.

And for Priests, Wizards and Druids instead, this skill will increase the maximum possible use of spells per battle by 1-2 for each level of spells.

For Chanters and Ciphers this skill will increase the character's power by 1-2, which will make their abilities stronger for a solo class.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Khagmas

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The problem is a lot of abilities are broken or crappy and so characters which pick their abilities from larger pools -- i.e., multiclass characters, but also wizards -- have an inherent advantage, because they can cherrypick the good stuff more effectively. 

 

The game needs a generalized positive balancing pass.

 

edit: ciphers, and to a lesser extent priests and druids, and possibly other classes as well (maybe barbarians?) need more active powers to choose from at higher levels. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[KDubya]

First game (PotD) I had Xoti as a single class Priest, second game went with monk multiclass.

 

I think she was better as the pure priest. Mainly for the faster access to the good spells at PL 3, especially the one with the big accuracy buff that I can't recall the name of. Early game potD is tough and its mainly due to missing too much. A spell that changes that is huge. Plus I keep her with her lantern and scythe which are pretty bad weapons as a monk since fists are so much better.

 

A true powergamer would use a hired single class priest until level 11 or so and then replace with a multiclass. No way to attempt to balance this.

 

For Monks I find going pure class to be the better choice due to faster and more plentiful ability picks. Plus the level IX whispers attack is really good, plus the upgrade to Flagellent's Path. All game you will hit harder with your fists and have +4 accuracy and +1 penetration with power level IX getting you another +4 accuracy and +1 penetration with Prestige. Early game you get Thunderous Blows for +2 penetration and +5 might when it will really make a difference.

 

Monks do well in a multi where you can spend most of your picks in the Monk side. So classes like Rogue (mainly want the sneak attack, deep wounds, and one or two strike abilities), Cipher (mainly want the soul whip, extra weapon penetration, borrowed instinct and the charms while giving the Cipher side the best focus generating weapons - monk fists), Ranger (if you want a pet) or Wizard (defensive buffs and get offensive spells from free Grimoires)

 

I find the system pretty well balanced considering the hundreds of possible multiclasses. I do think a level XIII ability that gives two 'Empower' per encounter instead of one additional 'Empower' before rest would be much better.