Why does every class have to have magic?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

you take that back

 

Pool of Radiance was perfect, right down to the code wheel

Except for uninstalling the OS when the game was uninstalled?

 

 

 

Different game, that was a ****ty attempt at a remake basically. Boeroer gives his age as early 40's and he mentions the C64, so he means this one:

 

 

 

 Pool of Radiance is a role-playing video game developed and published by Strategic Simulations, Inc (SSI) in 1988. It was the first adaptation of TSR's Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D) fantasy role-playing game for home computers, becoming the first episode in a four-part series of D&D computer adventure games.

 

It was the classic before the classic -- Original PoR is to Baldur's Gate as Baldur's Gate is to Pillars, except inherently superior, as it was turn-based, had a tactical grid for combat movement, came with a code wheel (very important), and had the guisarme-voulge.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[rjshae]

If the people like the OP prefer D&D that's perfectly fine but there is no reason to bad mouth people who don't feel obligated to narrow their gaming universe to only one interpretation (and in all fairness there is room in D&D for a lot more magic depending on the particular setting).

 

And not just D&D, but the rather constrained AD&D version of the system used in Baldur's Gate.

[Palas]

Nobody said anything about only auto attacking, but if you can't think of a move set that's unique and doesn't involve magic, you are lacking in imagination and have no business making games. How about different power attacks and charges that don't involve magical particle effects and surrounding yourself in flame? How about kicks, upper cuts, rolls, dives, shield bashes, etc? How about rogues getting various toys and gadgets, flips, and dodges? Why do we need to substitute all these equally cool moves with magical ones? Because its easy, and because this generation is unable to accept asymmetry. "Why cant my fighter throw fireballs like the wizard??? Wehhhhhhhn! that's not fair! Boring!!"

I think you overestimated the possibilities of the gamemechanik. If you control only one char like in Streetfighter, witcher II, soulcalibur etc., then you can make great nonmagic special attacks, here its quite difficult. Some special attacks made it in PoE without magiceffects.

 

For me, its not a big matter. I played DnD and Pathfinder pen and paper a lot and there it's similar and i like it. And i think the majority of the player like the unearthy specialattacks.

[AeonsLegend]

 

What's wrong with that, if done right? The entire movie "The Dragonslayer" was built around a deus ex machina.

 

A Deus Ex Machina is, by definition, not done right. I haven't seen Dragonslayer, so I can't really make a comment on how well that movie does or does not handle its story.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

 

As stated before it can be used to good effect. It all depends on the story and setting. Deus Ex Machine has a bad history because it's also been used poorly before this is why it is best to avoid it if you're an unexperienced writer. There's plenty of well known classic plays and stories that have raving critical reviews that use Deus Ex Machina. So saying it's wrong by definition is simply not true.

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

What's wrong with that, if done right? The entire movie "The Dragonslayer" was built around a deus ex machina.

 

A Deus Ex Machina is, by definition, not done right. I haven't seen Dragonslayer, so I can't really make a comment on how well that movie does or does not handle its story.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

 

As stated before it can be used to good effect. It all depends on the story and setting. Deus Ex Machine has a bad history because it's also been used poorly before this is why it is best to avoid it if you're an unexperienced writer. There's plenty of well known classic plays and stories that have raving critical reviews that use Deus Ex Machina. So saying it's wrong by definition is simply not true.

 

Ah. You are correct. Perhaps I was using a colloquial definition. I would only call something a Deus Ex Machina if it was poorly executed. Hopefully my later post elaborated somewhat on the nuances of this. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[hilfazer]

 

Also PoE is not D&D. 

 

 

But there are dungeons and dragons in PoE!

[Masticator]

I felt Dragon Age: Origins handled it best. Your melee fighters mostly had melee abilities. You had some pretty cool ones, but they seemed to exist within our normal realm of physics (or close to it). I know magic is beyond our normal realm of physics, but that's why it's called magic. Origins had a mana system, so your mages were limited. And I enjoyed playing a heavy 2 handed sword user. Having a mighty blow hit for massive damage can be kind of exciting. Who doesn't like seeing big numbers?

 

But I suppose everyone wants eye candy these days. Blame World of Warcraft for that.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Dragon Age is actually a very good example of how not to handle that. They created a world where magic is scary and unknown and muggles have to create a whole force of warriors who get hooked on magic heroin to counter mages... but then it slaps a generic RPG gameplay on it, with three classes, three races and a MMO-lite combat system. So either warriors and rogues are fifth wheels in their own party, like in Origins, or they have to pull off superhuman stunts, like in DA2 and DA:I, which the writing and world-building pretend really hard they cannot do.

 

But I see this thread has devolved into whinging about how "this generation" is the absolute worst for not abiding by the OP's personal taste, so there's very little to be said that will be remotely productive.

Edited June 11, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[Shadenuat]

DA:O had some great potential and even has cut content where they tried to do it *right*. For example one of the companions, the kindest old lady, was supposed to betray you if you practiced blood magic. But Bioware held back, they were afraid players won't like their companions doing this to them.

[Darkprince048]

Dragon Age is actually a very good example of how not to handle that. They created a world where magic is scary and unknown and muggles have to create a whole force of warriors who get hooked on magic heroin to counter mages... but then it slaps a generic RPG gameplay on it, with three classes, three races and a MMO-lite combat system. So either warriors and rogues are fifth wheels in their own party, like in Origins, or they have to pull off superhuman stunts, like in DA2 and DA:I, which the writing and world-building pretend really hard they cannot do.

 

But I see this thread has devolved into whinging about how "this generation" is the absolute worst for not abiding by the OP's personal taste, so there's very little to be said that will be remotely productive.

 

Your comment illustrates my point perfectly. The sole reason this paradigm exists, is because of players like yourself who can't grasp the concept that, yes, a wizard who can conjure fireballs and call storms from the sky is going to be more powerful than your fighter in heavy armor.

 

And over the years, more and more people like yourself have gathered and created such an issue, that these writers and developers are having to fabricate ways to make fighters and mundane classes equal to their magical counterparts. It simply doesn't work. 

 

Rather then grasp the concept of asymmetry, we live in a world that is now dominated by the voice of a community who demands everything to be equal, and sucks the fun out of every interesting concept conceived. 

 

Despite the natural checks and balances that were already in place that level the playing field. Yes, wizards are immensely powerful. They are also immensely vulnerable. They have long cast times, reagent requirements, poor martial abilities, etc. 

 

Giving super powers to fighters, or making everyone a wizard was not required... and more than that, it destroys the whole concept of a wizard....

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Darkprince048]

 

Really? Anyone can do science. Please put together the tech for me to build a cell phone. I want you to explain to me the exact process of how a cellular telephone works and I want you to build one for me. Right down to the touch screen, without using google. Hell, go ahead and use google. Wont make a difference. You dont just "use" science. You need to understand the very complicated concepts that underly it. And unless I missed something and you have a phd in a scientific field, I doubt you qualify.

Explain to me microbal culturing and gram stains, in conjunction with targeted antibiotic therapy. Sure, you can copy paste from google, but you get my point. Science is not simply done. You must learn it. It takes years of study. The same goes with magic in most lore.

We get it. You're a medicine man. But what you are responding to is not even relevant to the overall point of the person's post. It's nitpicking, and completely distracting from the conversation. Also, while I certainly never cured cancer in my chemistry classes or used "microbal culturing and gram stains", I did do simple distillations and measurements and even synthesis of compounds. Hell, people practice basic chemical science when they bake food and get tangible results from that.

 

And there you go again with "magic in most lore" when I and several other users have given you examples of incredibly popular and influential lore where this is not the case. Please address those before repeating your same point again and again and again, or stop making it because it's wrong and you have yet to prove otherwise. In fact, you have yet to prove you are familiar with any fantasy literature at all beyond hearsay.

 

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Saito Hikari]

This seems like a weird hill to plant a flag on and declare an edict from.

 

One of the major design concerns with PoE2 was to make sure that combat was easier to follow, hence the reduction in max party members at one time and so on. I suspect the overall flashiness is a side consideration of that as well. I doubt the developers even thought someone who only played the game for a few hours and supposedly dropped it was going to go on the forums and spawn a 10 page thread over lore justifications for attack animations.

 

The game universe emphasizes soul power quite a lot too. People earlier in the thread mentioned that some enemies use some of the same abilities that the player's characters have access to, but I don't remember any that use anything higher than Tier 5 skills (aside from a Priest or two using Storm of Holy Fire in the first game). There's also something else to consider, a minor spoiler for the first game for the discussion of 'souls power all magic': a certain character wanted to kill the Watcher and use their soul to create true time magic as well, regardless of what class the Watcher actually was.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Darkprince048]

This seems like a weird hill to plant a flag on and declare an edict from.

 

One of the major design concerns with PoE2 was to make sure that combat was easier to follow, hence the reduction in max party members at one time and so on. I suspect the overall flashiness is a side consideration of that as well. I doubt the developers even thought someone who only played the game for a few hours and supposedly dropped it was going to go on the forums and spawn a 10 page thread over lore justifications for attack animations.

 

The game universe emphasizes soul power quite a lot too. People earlier in the thread mentioned that some enemies use some of the same abilities that the player's characters have access to, but I don't remember any that use anything higher than Tier 5 skills (aside from a Priest or two using Storm of Holy Fire in the first game). There's also something else to consider, a minor spoiler for the first game for the discussion of 'souls power all magic': a certain character wanted to kill the Watcher and use their soul to create true time magic as well, regardless of what class the Watcher actually was.

 

I think people are getting this soul magic thing a bit wrong. The soul is just the fuel for magic. Like mana in other games. They are just saying it comes from souls, rather than Mundus, or the Weave, or winds of magic, or whatever.

 

It does not mean that anyone and their brother is born innately knowing how to conjure that energy and manifest it into a spell. If it was that easy, there would really be no such thing as a wizard. Although, the game is borderline at that point already.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

 

 Would you kindly argue a consistent point? Is that so hard? Because last I checked, I was arguing against your comparison of magic to science, because you like to bring up your medical degree so much. Tolkien's wizards are not scientists, as you said, they are demigods. These are entirely different points. Please stay consistent, instead of flip-flopping when it so suits you.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Answermancer]

 

Dragon Age is actually a very good example of how not to handle that. They created a world where magic is scary and unknown and muggles have to create a whole force of warriors who get hooked on magic heroin to counter mages... but then it slaps a generic RPG gameplay on it, with three classes, three races and a MMO-lite combat system. So either warriors and rogues are fifth wheels in their own party, like in Origins, or they have to pull off superhuman stunts, like in DA2 and DA:I, which the writing and world-building pretend really hard they cannot do.

 

But I see this thread has devolved into whinging about how "this generation" is the absolute worst for not abiding by the OP's personal taste, so there's very little to be said that will be remotely productive.

 

Your comment illustrates my point perfectly. The sole reason this paradigm exists, is because of players like yourself who can't grasp the concept that, yes, a wizard who can conjure fireballs and call storms from the sky is going to be more powerful than your fighter in heavy armor.

 

And over the years, more and more people like yourself have gathered and created such an issue, that these writers and developers are having to fabricate ways to make fighters and mundane classes equal to their magical counterparts. It simply doesn't work. 

 

Rather then grasp the concept of asymmetry, we live in a world that is now dominated by the voice of a community who demands everything to be equal, and sucks the fun out of every interesting concept conceived. 

 

Despite the natural checks and balances that were already in place that level the playing field. Yes, wizards are immensely powerful. They are also immensely vulnerable. They have long cast times, reagent requirements, poor martial abilities, etc. 

 

Giving super powers to fighters, or making everyone a wizard was not required... and more than that, it destroys the whole concept of a wizard....

 

 

Your posts are obnoxious and exhausting with all the persecution complex you constantly spew about how "PC culture is ruining wizards because the new generation can't handle asymmetry".

 

Your conspiracy theories and personal preferences about how "magic should be" are just opinion, not fact.

[Darkprince048]

 

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

 

 Would you kindly argue a consistent point? Is that so hard? Because last I checked, I was arguing against your comparison of magic to science, because you like to bring up your medical degree so much. Tolkien's wizards are not scientists, as you said, they are demigods. These are entirely different points. Please stay consistent. 

 

 

You asked me to respond to your point regarding settings where "everyone is a mage" and prove that I have any knowledge of rpg settings, so I listed the ones that shaped the genre and support the classical archetype of a wizard, and now you deflect. I mentioned about a dozen others beyond LOTR. All major works of fiction that shaped the genre

 

Science is the closest thing we can compare to magic of our real world. Don't pretend as if I am the only one who has ever made this analogy, as it has been documented thousands of times over the centuries that "one mans magic is another mans science". You are just arguing to argue. You get the resemblance. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Darkprince048]

 

 

Dragon Age is actually a very good example of how not to handle that. They created a world where magic is scary and unknown and muggles have to create a whole force of warriors who get hooked on magic heroin to counter mages... but then it slaps a generic RPG gameplay on it, with three classes, three races and a MMO-lite combat system. So either warriors and rogues are fifth wheels in their own party, like in Origins, or they have to pull off superhuman stunts, like in DA2 and DA:I, which the writing and world-building pretend really hard they cannot do.

 

But I see this thread has devolved into whinging about how "this generation" is the absolute worst for not abiding by the OP's personal taste, so there's very little to be said that will be remotely productive.

 

Your comment illustrates my point perfectly. The sole reason this paradigm exists, is because of players like yourself who can't grasp the concept that, yes, a wizard who can conjure fireballs and call storms from the sky is going to be more powerful than your fighter in heavy armor.

 

And over the years, more and more people like yourself have gathered and created such an issue, that these writers and developers are having to fabricate ways to make fighters and mundane classes equal to their magical counterparts. It simply doesn't work. 

 

Rather then grasp the concept of asymmetry, we live in a world that is now dominated by the voice of a community who demands everything to be equal, and sucks the fun out of every interesting concept conceived. 

 

Despite the natural checks and balances that were already in place that level the playing field. Yes, wizards are immensely powerful. They are also immensely vulnerable. They have long cast times, reagent requirements, poor martial abilities, etc. 

 

Giving super powers to fighters, or making everyone a wizard was not required... and more than that, it destroys the whole concept of a wizard....

 

 

Your posts are obnoxious and exhausting with all the persecution complex you constantly spew about how "PC culture is ruining wizards because the new generation can't handle asymmetry".

 

Your conspiracy theories and personal preferences about how "magic should be" are just opinion, not fact.

 

 

Obnoxious, maybe. However, accurate, and as I have listed several of the great works that have inspired the entire genre and support my idea of magic, it is pretty hard to argue against my point. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

 

 Would you kindly argue a consistent point? Is that so hard? Because last I checked, I was arguing against your comparison of magic to science, because you like to bring up your medical degree so much. Tolkien's wizards are not scientists, as you said, they are demigods. These are entirely different points. Please stay consistent. 

 

 

You asked me to respond to your point regarding settings with "everyone is a mage" and prove that I have any knowledge of rpg settings, so I listed the ones that shaped the genre and support the classical archetype of a wizard, and now you deflect. I mentioned about a dozen others beyond LOTR. All major works of fiction that shaped the genre

 

Clever boy

 

 

Congratulations, except that only some of these back up your persistent comparison of magic to science, which is what I was arguing against in the first place. 

 

But since you seem to have moved on, lets address those works you listed. By Fire and Ice, I assume you mean A Song of Ice and Fire. If not, please correct me because I couldn't find a Fire and Ice series from my quick google search. A Song of Ice and Fire has nothing even called wizards in it. Wizards don't have a monopoly on magic because they don't exist. A better comparison would be clerics and priests. The only thing close are the Warlocks in Qarth, who are heavily implied to simply use drugs as a means of simulating the appearance of magic. A Song of Ice and Fire also features a group of ASSASSINS called the faceless men who are capable of shapeshifting, so contract killers have magic too. Guess you never read that series, or you would remember that. Hell, you'd know that if you just watched the show. 

 

Tolkien's Wizards are, as you said, demigods. Gandalf is the same species as the Balrog. Wrap your head around that one. Does that fit the classic RPG definition of a Wizard? Answer: No. 

 

Once again, I am not arguing against your point about a monopoly on magic being common. I am arguing with your assertion that magic is only practiced like a science, and takes years of study to master. This is untrue in LotR. This is untrue in Ice and Fire, this is untrue (in some cases) in D&D. If you want other examples - this is untrue in World of Warcraft (you know, that bargain bin MMORPG), this is untrue in the Kingkiller Chronicles (somewhat) because there is an entire dimensional plane of magical creatures known as the fae). 

 

Elerond mentioned had a good list in an earlier post.

RPG systems

Glorantha (RPGs like RueQuest and HeroQuest use this setting), one of the oldest RPG settings

GURPS Technomancer  (setting for GURPS in which everybody has magic)

In Eberron, a D&D setting, low level magic so common place that virtually everybody has access to it

Earthdawn (both setting and rpg system)

 

Books

Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Darksword books by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

The Xanth series by Piers Anthony

The King's Peace by Jo Walton

A Darker Shade of Magic by V.E. Schwab (there is three parrarel universes from which in two everybody has magic)

The Crest of Zabutur series by N Lott

 

You bounce between these two points. Wizards as defined by rarity, or Wizards as defined by the narrow domain of intelligence-based casters. Each argument has entirely different reasons for why it's wrong, so I'm not going to argue both with you. Hell, it's impossible to argue with you at all because you ignore half of the posts directed to you in this thread. I understand that there is a lot to respond to, but don't bring up points that people have brought into question without first addressing the countless issues with them that people have already pointed out. 

 

It doesn't matter. You are dancing around and around in circles. 

[Answermancer]

Obnoxious, maybe. However, accurate, and as I have listed several of the great works that have inspired the entire genre and support my idea of magic, it is pretty hard to argue against my point. 

 

 

It is pretty hard to argue against your point because you cherry-pick the things you like as "great works that inspired the entire genre" and ignore everything else.

 

Constantly moving the goalposts or arguing totally different things while saying everyone else "just doesn't get it" also helps.

 

How does your view of magic as science in any way match great works like LoTR where magic is strictly the purview of gods and angels (who happen to look like Wizards) and there's nothing scientific about it?

 

But the part that really shows how self absorbed you are and how much you need everyone to agree with your very narrow definitions, is this:

You constantly talk about how magic should be like science and Wizards the noble nerds that are smart enough to study it. And yet, when lots of people point out that Wizards are exactly that in Eora, they are researchers, animancers, they have labs and try to study how soul energy works, you ignore this because you personally find the abilities of other classes too flashy or too magical.

 

Multiple people have pointed this out, but your criticism comes down to not liking a truly high-magic setting.

 

Eora is a high magic setting, magical energy (soul energy) is everywhere in some form, and anyone can tap into it to some extent as part of their lives and their jobs. Wizards are exactly what you complain they are not, they are scientists concerned with the minutiae of magical power, who study it and find practical "technological" applications. Like many other people have pointed out, if you equate Magic with physics, anyone can learn a little physics knowledge and apply it in their jobs, and they are the non-Wizard classes, but only Wizards are "PhD physicists" winning Nobel prizes. 

 

The fact that you constantly ignore this point makes it clear that mostly you're butthurt that anyone else gets to use cool magical effects (even though their usage is highly specialized and "intuitive" rather than deeply studied).

Edited June 11, 2018 by Answermancer

[knownastherat]

[Darkprince048]

 

 

 

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

 

 Would you kindly argue a consistent point? Is that so hard? Because last I checked, I was arguing against your comparison of magic to science, because you like to bring up your medical degree so much. Tolkien's wizards are not scientists, as you said, they are demigods. These are entirely different points. Please stay consistent. 

 

 

You asked me to respond to your point regarding settings with "everyone is a mage" and prove that I have any knowledge of rpg settings, so I listed the ones that shaped the genre and support the classical archetype of a wizard, and now you deflect. I mentioned about a dozen others beyond LOTR. All major works of fiction that shaped the genre

 

Clever boy

 

 

Congratulations, except that only some of these back up your persistent comparison of magic to science, which is what I was arguing against in the first place. 

 

But since you seem to have moved on, lets address those works you listed. By Fire and Ice, I assume you mean A Song of Ice and Fire. If not, please correct me because I couldn't find a Fire and Ice series from my quick google search. A Song of Ice and Fire has nothing even called wizards in it. Wizards don't have a monopoly on magic because they don't exist. A better comparison would be clerics and priests. The only thing close are the Warlocks in Qarth, who are heavily implied to simply use drugs as a means of simulating the appearance of magic. A Song of Ice and Fire also features a group of ASSASSINS called the faceless men who are capable of shapeshifting, so contract killers have magic too. Guess you never read that series, or you would remember that. Hell, you'd know that if you just watched the show. 

 

Tolkien's Wizards are, as you said, demigods. Gandalf is the same species as the Balrog. Wrap your head around that one. Does that fit the classic RPG definition of a Wizard? Answer: No. 

 

Once again, I am not arguing against your point about a monopoly on magic being common. I am arguing with your assertion that magic is only practiced like a science, and takes years of study to master. This is untrue in LotR. This is untrue in Ice and Fire, this is untrue (in some cases) in D&D. If you want other examples - this is untrue in World of Warcraft (you know, that bargain bin MMORPG), this is untrue in the Kingkiller Chronicles (somewhat) because there is an entire dimensional plane of magical creatures known as the fae). 

 

Elerond mentioned had a good list in an earlier post.

RPG systems

Glorantha (RPGs like RueQuest and HeroQuest use this setting), one of the oldest RPG settings

GURPS Technomancer  (setting for GURPS in which everybody has magic)

In Eberron, a D&D setting, low level magic so common place that virtually everybody has access to it

Earthdawn (both setting and rpg system)

 

Books

Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Darksword books by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

The Xanth series by Piers Anthony

The King's Peace by Jo Walton

A Darker Shade of Magic by V.E. Schwab (there is three parrarel universes from which in two everybody has magic)

The Crest of Zabutur series by N Lott

 

You bounce between these two points. Wizards as defined by rarity, or Wizards as defined by the narrow domain of intelligence-based casters. Each argument has entirely different reasons for why it's wrong, so I'm not going to argue both with you. Hell, it's impossible to argue with you at all because you ignore half of the posts directed to you in this thread. I understand that there is a lot to respond to, but don't bring up points that people have brought into question without first addressing the countless issues with them that people have already pointed out. 

 

It doesn't matter. You are dancing around and around in circles. 

 

 

The world of Game of Thrones is covered in spell casters, witches, warlocks and sorcerers. They are not called wizards, sometimes they are labeled as priests, or priestess, maisters or simply sorcerers, but they are none the less the same thing. Practitioners of magic.

 

The feats they are capable of through occult knowledge, secrets and study (Melisandra conjuring a demon spirit from her womb to murder Stanis Barathean, or bringing John Snow back from the dead, the warlocks of Qarth able to cast mirror image among other spells, the witch who conjured Kal Drogos spirit back from the dead to preserve his body) are evident. Normal men are not able to perform these acts of sorcery because they do not have the knowledge to do so. I know my Fire and Ice...

 

The faceless men did not use magic. They used literal faces of the faceless god. They were essentially magic items, and that was the limit to their mystical abilities. 

 

World of Warcraft is not like that? They had entire organizations dedicated to the study of magic..... Have you not heard of Dalaran? Have you even played WoW? 

 

You don't know what you are talking about

[Darkprince048]

 

Obnoxious, maybe. However, accurate, and as I have listed several of the great works that have inspired the entire genre and support my idea of magic, it is pretty hard to argue against my point. 

 

 

It is pretty hard to argue against your point because you cherry-pick the things you like as "great works that inspired the entire genre" and ignore everything else.

 

Constantly moving the goalposts or arguing totally different things while saying everyone else "just doesn't get it" also helps.

 

How does your view of magic as science in any way match great works like LoTR where magic is strictly the purview of gods and angels (who happen to look like Wizards) and there's nothing scientific about it?

 

But the part that really shows how self absorbed you are and how much you need everyone to agree with your very narrow definitions, is this:

You constantly talk about how magic should be like science and Wizards the noble nerds that are smart enough to study it. And yet, when lots of people point out that Wizards are exactly that in Eora, they are researchers, animancers, they have labs and try to study how soul energy works, you ignore this because you personally find the abilities of other classes too flashy or too magical.

 

Multiple people have pointed this out, but your criticism comes down to not liking a truly high-magic setting.

 

Eora is a high magic setting, magical energy (soul energy) is everywhere in some form, and anyone can tap into it to some extent as part of their lives and their jobs. Wizards are exactly what you complain they are not, they are scientists concerned with the minutiae of magical power, who study it and find practical "technological" applications. Like many other people have pointed out, if you equate Magic with physics, anyone can learn a little physics knowledge and apply it in their jobs, and they are the non-Wizard classes, but only Wizards are "PhD physicists" winning Nobel prizes. 

 

The fact that you constantly ignore this point makes it clear that mostly you're butthurt that anyone else gets to use cool magical effects (even though their usage is highly specialized and "intuitive" rather than deeply studied).

 

 

If magic is so widespread and easily attained, and any Joe Smoe can use it, what need is there for someone to research or specialize in it? It is everywhere and easily used by anyone. What is special about a wizard? How does a "wizard" even exist in a setting where magic is so easily obtained and used. Where essentially everyone is a "wizard" and the term simply means someone who plays with it as a hobby. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

 

The world of Game of Thrones is covered in spell casters, witches, warlocks and sorcerers. They are not called wizards, sometimes they are labeled as priests, or priestess, maisters or simply sorcerers, but they are none the less the same thing. Practitioners of magic.

 

The feats they are capable of through occult knowledge, secrets and study (Melisandra conjuring a demon spirit from her womb to murder Stanis Barathean, or bringing John Snow back from the dead, the warlocks of Qarth able to cast mirror image among other spells, the witch who conjured Kal Drogos spirit back from the dead to preserve his body) are evident. Normal men are not able to perform these acts of sorcery because they do not have the knowledge to do so. I know my Fire and Ice...

 

The faceless men did not use magic. They used literal faces of the faceless god. They were essentially magic items, and that was the limit to their mystical abilities. 

 

World of Warcraft is not like that? They had entire organizations dedicated to the study of magic..... Have you not heard of Dalaran? Have you even played WoW? 

 

You don't know what you are talking about

 

 

I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to discuss the rarity as well as the flavor of magic classes. I mentioned WoW because it's another RPG where even Rogues are capable of magic feats. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=36554/shadowstep

 

Sounds very similar to something else doesn't it?

https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Shadow+Step

Almost... identical.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Darkprince048]

 

 

The world of Game of Thrones is covered in spell casters, witches, warlocks and sorcerers. They are not called wizards, sometimes they are labeled as priests, or priestess, maisters or simply sorcerers, but they are none the less the same thing. Practitioners of magic.

 

The feats they are capable of through occult knowledge, secrets and study (Melisandra conjuring a demon spirit from her womb to murder Stanis Barathean, or bringing John Snow back from the dead, the warlocks of Qarth able to cast mirror image among other spells, the witch who conjured Kal Drogos spirit back from the dead to preserve his body) are evident. Normal men are not able to perform these acts of sorcery because they do not have the knowledge to do so. I know my Fire and Ice...

 

The faceless men did not use magic. They used literal faces of the faceless god. They were essentially magic items, and that was the limit to their mystical abilities. 

 

World of Warcraft is not like that? They had entire organizations dedicated to the study of magic..... Have you not heard of Dalaran? Have you even played WoW? 

 

You don't know what you are talking about

 

 

I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to discuss the rarity as well as the flavor of magic classes. I mentioned WoW because it's another RPG where even Rogues are capable of magic feats. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=36554/shadowstep

 

Sounds very similar to something else doesn't it?

https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Shadow+Step

Almost... identical.

 

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

World of Warcraft is not like that? They had entire organizations dedicated to the study of magic..... Have you not heard of Dalaran? Have you even played WoW? 

 

Also, had to find this.

https://youtu.be/ecf-I6osFJs?t=37s