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I have responded to several of your arguments and Loren tyrs. I suggest you do some scrolling. I have already clarified the difference between "folk medicine" and actual medicine, and how little the public actually knows about medicine. Medicine, like most concepts of magic in lore, requires years of study and training. Or do you think your gramma can diagnose atrial fibrillation, and treat it appropriately? How about neurocysticercosis? Think shes got that handled too?

 

Not just anyone can practice medicine. There is a reason you have to go through years of study to do so. It has taken years of study, research and training to be able to identify and learn to treat these various conditions. You don't come out of the womb knowing these things, despite the many web MDs out there. So,what were you saying about medicine not being a good analogy? Please bless me with your vast knowledge on such a common concept as medical practice...

 

 

 

Yes, rogues and barbarians are masters of their craft. But their craft is melee combat, and subterfuge. Not sorcery. I am not complaining about mixing poisons and using tricks and gadgets. I am referring to the barbarian ability "instrument of boundless rage" where the barbarian lights his weapon up with magical fire, throws it and it explodes in a massive fireball.

And I am referring to the rogue who waves his hand turns invisible and teleports across the screen using magic.

 

I don't think those are included in the skill sets of barbarians and rogues. Maybe a multiclass rogue and wizard. Or warlock (wizard and barbarian)

 

 

You are comparing magic to modern day science, thus I am giving examples of how people who don't necessarily devote themselves to scientific fields still utilize science to supplement their own. Logically, it would carry over that if Magic is a kind of science in this world (which is how you are treating it, given your comparison to the field of medicine), it would result in similar utilization by those not necessarily devoted to the craft.

 

 

 

So, using your argument, do you think when you operate a cell phone or car you are practicing science? No, you are using an object that a practitioner of science specifically made for you, a layman. You are no more using science than a rogue who uses a scroll or poison given to him by a wizard. 

 

As for the rogue making the poison, he followed a simple recipe given to him. Mixed a few ingredients together. He has no knowledge of how any of it works or how to apply it. That is a far cry from teleportation, turning invisible, flying, and throwing explosive magical weapons that you conjured in thin air....

Edited by Darkprince048
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are you dabbling in science? No more then a rogue who uses a scroll or a potion is using magic. He is using something made for laymen, that he has no understanding of, to get an effect. I have no issue with that.  That is also not practicing magic.

So, using your argument, do you think that by operating a cell phone or driving a car, you are a scientist? Just because you use technology made for you by an actual practitioner of science, 

If a rogue is given a recipe for a poison, which basically consists of throwing a few items together, does that mean his is practicing chemistry? No, because without training he has no understanding of how to apply any of that knowledge. You are comparing following a simple recipe, to teleportation, invisibility, flying and throwing explosive weapons. Not the same thing. You are creating a straw man argument. 

 

 

I think that a pilot who uses knowledge of aeronautics and engineering to fly a plane is in fact practicing those aspects of aeronautics and engineering. They would not be considered experts in the fields of either, but they are utilizing that knowledge for their own profession. Science to magic was your comparison, not mine. I am simply following your analogy to its logical conclusion.

 

If it isn't applicable because there is a difference between knowledge of magic and knowledge of medicine, you shouldn't be comparing the two. If there isn't, then I don't see a problem with anything I said. People should be able to use basic, specialized magic without being a Wizard the same way that they can use basic, specialized science without being a scientist or doctor.

Edited by Neckbitbasket
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are you dabbling in science? No more then a rogue who uses a scroll or a potion is using magic. He is using something made for laymen, that he has no understanding of, to get an effect. I have no issue with that.  That is also not practicing magic.

So, using your argument, do you think that by operating a cell phone or driving a car, you are a scientist? Just because you use technology made for you by an actual practitioner of science, 

If a rogue is given a recipe for a poison, which basically consists of throwing a few items together, does that mean his is practicing chemistry? No, because without training he has no understanding of how to apply any of that knowledge. You are comparing following a simple recipe, to teleportation, invisibility, flying and throwing explosive weapons. Not the same thing. You are creating a straw man argument. 

 

 

I think that a pilot who uses knowledge of aeronautics and engineering to fly a plane is in fact practicing those aspects of aeronautics and engineering. They would not be considered experts in the fields of either, but they are utilizing that knowledge for their own profession. Science to magic was your comparison, not mine. I am simply following your analogy to its logical conclusion.

 

If it isn't applicable because there is a difference between knowledge of magic and knowledge of medicine, you shouldn't be comparing the two. If there isn't, then I don't see a problem with anything I said.

 

 

No, it is not applicable because you are purposely conflating using an object made by a practitioner of science, as if the user of the object is practicing science simply by using it. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist. Made specifically for layman with no training in science. So, your conflation is the issue. 

 

The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. Science analogy

 

Or a homeless high school drop out curing cancer by crafting a vaccine in his spare time, with no degree in biology. Medical analogy

 

That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons. 

Edited by Darkprince048
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No, it is not applicable because you are conflating using an object made by a practitioner of an art, as if they themselves are practicing the art. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist, made specifically for layman with no training in science. So your conflation is the issue. 

 

The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons. 

 

 

As someone who is friends with a pilot, you do need knowledge of how planes work in order to fly one. Or for a different comparison, do I need knowledge of anatomy to practice a workout routine that makes my body stronger? No, not really. I know that exercise has this effect on my body because I have observed that effect, and as I practice and experiment with different routines, I'll discover what works better and what doesn't. 

 

A person trained in kinesiology and with knowledge of the human body would be able to come to the same conclusions as I have, and probably faster, and even be able to explain them better, but you don't need to have a doctorate in exercise science to develop a routine that works decently well for you. It's just that someone who is will be able to develop one faster, and probably in the long run, better. And, they would be able to apply their knowledge to people besides themselves because it is based in a concrete understanding of why and how, rather than trial and error and intuition.

Edited by Neckbitbasket
"A culture's teachings, and most importantly, the nature of its people, achieve definition in conflict."

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No, it is not applicable because you are conflating using an object made by a practitioner of an art, as if they themselves are practicing the art. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist, made specifically for layman with no training in science. So your conflation is the issue. 

 

The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons. 

 

 

As someone who is friends with a pilot, you do need knowledge of how planes work in order to fly one. Or for a different comparison, do I need knowledge of anatomy to practice a workout routine that makes my body stronger? No, not really. I know that exercise has this effect on my body because I have observed that effect, and as I practice and experiment with different routines, I'll discover what works better and what doesn't. 

 

A person trained in kinesiology and with knowledge of the human body would be able to come to the same conclusions as I have, and probably faster, and even be able to explain them better, but you don't need to have a doctorate in exercise science to develop a routine that works decently well for you. It's just that someone who is will be able to develop one faster, and probably in the long run, better. And, they would be able to apply their knowledge to people besides themselves because it is based in a concrete understanding of why and how, rather than trial and error and intuition.

 

 

You are conflating something that is common knowledge, with advanced scientific principals. My 8 year old cousin knows that working out equals big muscles. That is basic human biology. That's like saying because I know not eating = death, I have advanced scientific knowledge. 

 

You are purposely conflating common human knowledge with advanced scientific concepts. They are not the same thing, and you are doing it on purpose. Magic falls into advanced scientific concepts, hence why they have these people called wizards who spend years studying it. Trying to compare "me eat food, me get big" to science or magic, is ridiculous. 

 

As for the pilot, bad comparison because pilots are required to go to years of school to learn the concepts they will be using. So it is an invalid point. We are comparing layman barbarians and fighters to specialists in their field, with actual training (pilots). Apples and oranges. 

Edited by Darkprince048
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You are conflating something that is common knowledge, with advanced scientific principals. My 8 year old cousin knows that working out equals big muscles. That is basic human biology. That's like saying because I know not eating = death, I have advanced scientific knowledge. 

 

You are purposely conflating common human knowledge with advanced scientific concepts. They are not the same thing, and you are doing it on purpose. Magic falls into advanced scientific concepts, hence why they have these people called wizards who spend years studying it. Trying to compare "me eat food, me get big" to science or magic, is ridiculous. 

 

As for the pilot, bad comparison because pilots are required to go to years of school to learn the concepts they will be using. So it is an invalid point. We are comparing layman barbarians and fighters to specialists in their field, with actual training (pilots). Apples and oranges. 

 

 

Fighters and Barbarians are specialists in their field with actual training. These are not laymen. These are individuals with at least as much practice in their specific professions as Wizards have at their respective levels. Furthermore, given how intrinsic magic is to the universe of PoE, many concepts of magic are commonplace. This is a high magic setting, remember. This is the point I'm trying to get across. In Eora, magic would be studied by anyone hoping to improve past a certain point in their martial expertise, and magic can be improved similar to a person's muscles because the soul is merely another component of their body. Learning how to harness it's power is absolutely comparable to learning how to harness the power of our bodies. 

 

EDIT: Additions/TL;DR

 

Wizards understand the nature of the world and the soul with far more depth, breadth, intricacy, and nuance than a Rogue or Barbarian, but it makes sense that those professions would also have some level of magical knowledge, and an understanding of how to harness their soul to supplement their abilities. Similar to how a sniper has some level of understanding of math to calculate trajectories and account for wind, temperature, pressure, etc. And even if they don't, the soul being part of the body means training it is, at least to some extent, similar to training your body. Wizards apply their knowledge to exponentially increase the potential power and variety of these abilities. 

 

--Apologies for all the edits.

Edited by Neckbitbasket
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"A culture's teachings, and most importantly, the nature of its people, achieve definition in conflict."

- Kreia -

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No, it is not applicable because you are conflating using an object made by a practitioner of an art, as if the user of the object is practicing the art. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist, made specifically for layman with no training in science. So your conflation is the issue.

 

The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons.

 

Or a homeless high school drop out curing cancer by crafting a vaccine in his spare time, with no degree in biology.

How about a comparison that is more apt for the setting and topic? Let's compare an NFL Defensive Back to an Olympic Sprinter. Both are people who have trained & studied their whole lives to essentially do one thing: run really fast. Everybody. IRL who isn't physically disabled somehow can run. But only a handful of people are skilled, trained, have the necessary level of commitment & physiological gifts to be world-class runners. Cutting-edge elite athletes are just as rare, or rarer than top-tier scientists and doctors, and have years of exceptionally specialized knowledge & experience in their specific fields.

 

Even then an Olympic sprinter isn't automatically going to be able to play defensive back at an NFL level, as football has showed us many times that just Being Really Fast doesn't automatically make you good at football. In the same vein, a Defensive Back who isn't as flat-out fast as his opponents can frequently make up for it with proper technique and knowledge of the game.

 

Thus we get to how "soul magic" works in Eora. A Barbarian has learned that through channeling the power of his soul into his body in different ways, he can augment his physical abilities to perform super-human feats that we would qualify as magical.

 

A wizard, after years of study and experience in his craft has learned how to warp reality at his will with the power of HIS soul. This allows him to command the elements, summon weapons & armor, or cast illusions to confuse & bewilder his foes.

 

Like the sprinter & the DB, both use the same base ability inherent to every being in their respective world's people (running vs soul-power utilization). Yet like the sprinter vs. the DB, they utilize specialized knowledge in their fields of expertise to accomplish different feats with the same basic ability.

 

Now you may not like that that's how the setting works, since you seem to think that only people who have devoted their lives to studying the building blocks of reality should be able to do things other than hit people with sticks and do sick gymnastics. But that's not how it is, and frankly you can't convince me that it SHOULD be that way.

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You are conflating something that is common knowledge, with advanced scientific principals. My 8 year old cousin knows that working out equals big muscles. That is basic human biology. That's like saying because I know not eating = death, I have advanced scientific knowledge. 

 

You are purposely conflating common human knowledge with advanced scientific concepts. They are not the same thing, and you are doing it on purpose. Magic falls into advanced scientific concepts, hence why they have these people called wizards who spend years studying it. Trying to compare "me eat food, me get big" to science or magic, is ridiculous. 

 

As for the pilot, bad comparison because pilots are required to go to years of school to learn the concepts they will be using. So it is an invalid point. We are comparing layman barbarians and fighters to specialists in their field, with actual training (pilots). Apples and oranges. 

 

 

Fighters and Barbarians are specialists in their field with actual training. These are not laymen. These are individuals with at least as much practice in their specific professions as Wizards have at their respective levels. Furthermore, given how intrinsic magic is to the universe of PoE, many concepts of magic are commonplace. This is a high magic setting, remember. This is the point I'm trying to get across. In Eora, magic would be studied by anyone hoping to improve past a certain point in their martial expertise, and magic can be improved similar to a person's muscles because the soul is merely another component of their body. Learning how to harness it's power is absolutely comparable to learning how to harness the power of our bodies. 

 

EDIT: Additions/TL;DR

 

Wizards understand the nature of the world and the soul with far more depth, breadth, intricacy, and nuance than a Rogue or Barbarian, but it makes sense that those professions would also have some level of magical knowledge, and an understanding of how to harness their soul to supplement their abilities. Similar to how a sniper has some level of understanding of math to calculate trajectories and account for wind, temperature, pressure, etc. And even if they don't, the soul being part of the body means training it is, at least to some extent, similar to training your body. Wizards apply their knowledge to exponentially increase the potential power and variety of these abilities. 

 

--Apologies for all the edits.

 

 

I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

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No, it is not applicable because you are conflating using an object made by a practitioner of an art, as if the user of the object is practicing the art. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist, made specifically for layman with no training in science. So your conflation is the issue.

 

The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons.

 

Or a homeless high school drop out curing cancer by crafting a vaccine in his spare time, with no degree in biology.

How about a comparison that is more apt for the setting and topic? Let's compare an NFL Defensive Back to an Olympic Sprinter. Both are people who have trained & studied their whole lives to essentially do one thing: run really fast. Everybody. IRL who isn't physically disabled somehow can run. But only a handful of people are skilled, trained, have the necessary level of commitment & physiological gifts to be world-class runners. Cutting-edge elite athletes are just as rare, or rarer than top-tier scientists and doctors, and have years of exceptionally specialized knowledge & experience in their specific fields.

 

Even then an Olympic sprinter isn't automatically going to be able to play defensive back at an NFL level, as football has showed us many times that just Being Really Fast doesn't automatically make you good at football. In the same vein, a Defensive Back who isn't as flat-out fast as his opponents can frequently make up for it with proper technique and knowledge of the game.

 

Thus we get to how "soul magic" works in Eora. A Barbarian has learned that through channeling the power of his soul into his body in different ways, he can augment his physical abilities to perform super-human feats that we would qualify as magical.

 

A wizard, after years of study and experience in his craft has learned how to warp reality at his will with the power of HIS soul. This allows him to command the elements, summon weapons & armor, or cast illusions to confuse & bewilder his foes.

 

Like the sprinter & the DB, both use the same base ability inherent to every being in their respective world's people (running vs soul-power utilization). Yet like the sprinter vs. the DB, they utilize specialized knowledge in their fields of expertise to accomplish different feats with the same basic ability.

 

Now you may not like that that's how the setting works, since you seem to think that only people who have devoted their lives to studying the building blocks of reality should be able to do things other than hit people with sticks and do sick gymnastics. But that's not how it is, and frankly you can't convince me that it SHOULD be that way.

 

 

And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do,  other classes can do with no cast time and no magic book.

 

Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes."

 

Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over"

 

Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!"

 

Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast"

 

The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game. 

Edited by Darkprince048
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No, it is not applicable because you are conflating using an object made by a practitioner of an art, as if the user of the object is practicing the art. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist, made specifically for layman with no training in science. So your conflation is the issue.

 

The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons.

 

Or a homeless high school drop out curing cancer by crafting a vaccine in his spare time, with no degree in biology.

How about a comparison that is more apt for the setting and topic? Let's compare an NFL Defensive Back to an Olympic Sprinter. Both are people who have trained & studied their whole lives to essentially do one thing: run really fast. Everybody. IRL who isn't physically disabled somehow can run. But only a handful of people are skilled, trained, have the necessary level of commitment & physiological gifts to be world-class runners. Cutting-edge elite athletes are just as rare, or rarer than top-tier scientists and doctors, and have years of exceptionally specialized knowledge & experience in their specific fields.

 

Even then an Olympic sprinter isn't automatically going to be able to play defensive back at an NFL level, as football has showed us many times that just Being Really Fast doesn't automatically make you good at football. In the same vein, a Defensive Back who isn't as flat-out fast as his opponents can frequently make up for it with proper technique and knowledge of the game.

 

Thus we get to how "soul magic" works in Eora. A Barbarian has learned that through channeling the power of his soul into his body in different ways, he can augment his physical abilities to perform super-human feats that we would qualify as magical.

 

A wizard, after years of study and experience in his craft has learned how to warp reality at his will with the power of HIS soul. This allows him to command the elements, summon weapons & armor, or cast illusions to confuse & bewilder his foes.

 

Like the sprinter & the DB, both use the same base ability inherent to every being in their respective world's people (running vs soul-power utilization). Yet like the sprinter vs. the DB, they utilize specialized knowledge in their fields of expertise to accomplish different feats with the same basic ability.

 

Now you may not like that that's how the setting works, since you seem to think that only people who have devoted their lives to studying the building blocks of reality should be able to do things other than hit people with sticks and do sick gymnastics. But that's not how it is, and frankly you can't convince me that it SHOULD be that way.

 

 

And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do, is able to be done by other classes with no cast time and no magic book.

 

Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes."

 

Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over"

 

Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!"

 

Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast"

 

The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game. 

 

 

You raise some example where other classes can do better than wizard. But there are more things wizard can do while others can't. Anti-spells, steal spells, turn someone else into a pig, devastating meteor shower and so on. You cannot say one class is useless because someone else can do better in some field.

 

Paladin is useless because priest can buff the whole team while pal can only buff one? No he's tankier and can do some good alpha-strike, Ranger does less damage to multiple targets so it's no meaning to play one? No, they are good magehunter as u can easily dispel enemy wizard protections and then shutdown them.

 

Deny one class's function by raising examples where they perform less is not very convincing. Every classes has and should some shining point. If a wizard can do everything others can, what's the point of classful system.

Edited by dunehunter
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No, it is not applicable because you are conflating using an object made by a practitioner of an art, as if the user of the object is practicing the art. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist, made specifically for layman with no training in science. So your conflation is the issue.

 

The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons.

 

Or a homeless high school drop out curing cancer by crafting a vaccine in his spare time, with no degree in biology.

How about a comparison that is more apt for the setting and topic? Let's compare an NFL Defensive Back to an Olympic Sprinter. Both are people who have trained & studied their whole lives to essentially do one thing: run really fast. Everybody. IRL who isn't physically disabled somehow can run. But only a handful of people are skilled, trained, have the necessary level of commitment & physiological gifts to be world-class runners. Cutting-edge elite athletes are just as rare, or rarer than top-tier scientists and doctors, and have years of exceptionally specialized knowledge & experience in their specific fields.

 

Even then an Olympic sprinter isn't automatically going to be able to play defensive back at an NFL level, as football has showed us many times that just Being Really Fast doesn't automatically make you good at football. In the same vein, a Defensive Back who isn't as flat-out fast as his opponents can frequently make up for it with proper technique and knowledge of the game.

 

Thus we get to how "soul magic" works in Eora. A Barbarian has learned that through channeling the power of his soul into his body in different ways, he can augment his physical abilities to perform super-human feats that we would qualify as magical.

 

A wizard, after years of study and experience in his craft has learned how to warp reality at his will with the power of HIS soul. This allows him to command the elements, summon weapons & armor, or cast illusions to confuse & bewilder his foes.

 

Like the sprinter & the DB, both use the same base ability inherent to every being in their respective world's people (running vs soul-power utilization). Yet like the sprinter vs. the DB, they utilize specialized knowledge in their fields of expertise to accomplish different feats with the same basic ability.

 

Now you may not like that that's how the setting works, since you seem to think that only people who have devoted their lives to studying the building blocks of reality should be able to do things other than hit people with sticks and do sick gymnastics. But that's not how it is, and frankly you can't convince me that it SHOULD be that way.

 

 

And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do, is able to be done by other classes with no cast time and no magic book.

 

Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes."

 

Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over"

 

Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!"

 

Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast"

 

The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game. 

 

 

You raise some example where other classes can do better than wizard. But there are more things wizard can do while others can't. Anti-spells, steal spells, turn someone else into a pig, devastating meteor shower and so on. You cannot say one class is useless because someone else can do better in some field.

 

Paladin is useless because priest can buff the whole team while pal can only buff one? No he's tankier and can do some good alpha-strike, Ranger does less damage to multiple targets so it's no meaning to play one? No, they are good magehunter as u can easily dispel enemy wizard protections and then shutdown them.

 

Deny one class's function by raising examples where they perform less is not very convincing. Every classes has and should some shining point. If a wizard can do everything others can, what's the point of classful system.

 

 

Normal martial classes should not be able to do any of that! Magic is for mages! That is the point! Barbarians and fighters crush skulls, beat people to death with their impressive physical abilities. They don't fly, shoot laser beams from their mouths and conjure magic exploding axes! 

 

The balance comes in that wizards are ass weak, are unable to defend themselves up close, have long cast times, and in most concepts require rituals and reagents to cast spells. This means that a wizard may be incredibly powerful when well prepared and supported, but utterly vulnerable otherwise. That is the balance!

 

The wizard loses everything that makes him cool in this paradigm. Wizards are cool because of MAGIC. But when every other class gets the same cool magic, that's pretty much better in a lot of ways, who the hell wants to play a wizard? Is this really so hard to understand? Lol

 

If I tell everyone in the room I am a doctor, and everyone in the room knows medicine, does the title mean anything? 

 

If everyone in the game knows powerful magic that is very similar to my own, with no cast times, and no books required. Is there any point to including a class called wizard?

Edited by Darkprince048
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I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

Ugh. You're going to make me launch the game up now, aren't you. Alright.

 

Rogues get the ability to Shadow Step at Power Level IV. 

Wizards at Power Level IV get access to Pull of Eora (essentially a black hole). 

Dimensional Shift (two person teleportation/swapping places + a seismic pulse effect).

Wall of Flame (summons a literal Wall of Fire)

Minor Grimoire Imprint (Allows them to steal a third level spell from any other spell list in the game)

 

Barbarians get Spirit Tornado at Power Level VII

Wizards at Power Level VII get Delayed Fireball (self explanatory)

Substantial Phantom (Creates a clone of themselves)

Citzal's Martial Power (One of the best buffs in the game)

Ninagauth's Killing Bolt (A spear that summons a Spectre if it kills it's target)

 

And this isn't including any spells that came before in the power levels below these. Play a Barbarian, and then play a Wizard. The difference is night and day.

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You are conflating something that is common knowledge, with advanced scientific principals. My 8 year old cousin knows that working out equals big muscles. That is basic human biology. That's like saying because I know not eating = death, I have advanced scientific knowledge. 

 

You are purposely conflating common human knowledge with advanced scientific concepts. They are not the same thing, and you are doing it on purpose. Magic falls into advanced scientific concepts, hence why they have these people called wizards who spend years studying it. Trying to compare "me eat food, me get big" to science or magic, is ridiculous. 

 

As for the pilot, bad comparison because pilots are required to go to years of school to learn the concepts they will be using. So it is an invalid point. We are comparing layman barbarians and fighters to specialists in their field, with actual training (pilots). Apples and oranges. 

 

 

Fighters and Barbarians are specialists in their field with actual training. These are not laymen. These are individuals with at least as much practice in their specific professions as Wizards have at their respective levels. Furthermore, given how intrinsic magic is to the universe of PoE, many concepts of magic are commonplace. This is a high magic setting, remember. This is the point I'm trying to get across. In Eora, magic would be studied by anyone hoping to improve past a certain point in their martial expertise, and magic can be improved similar to a person's muscles because the soul is merely another component of their body. Learning how to harness it's power is absolutely comparable to learning how to harness the power of our bodies. 

 

EDIT: Additions/TL;DR

 

Wizards understand the nature of the world and the soul with far more depth, breadth, intricacy, and nuance than a Rogue or Barbarian, but it makes sense that those professions would also have some level of magical knowledge, and an understanding of how to harness their soul to supplement their abilities. Similar to how a sniper has some level of understanding of math to calculate trajectories and account for wind, temperature, pressure, etc. And even if they don't, the soul being part of the body means training it is, at least to some extent, similar to training your body. Wizards apply their knowledge to exponentially increase the potential power and variety of these abilities. 

 

--Apologies for all the edits.

 

 

I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

These are all gameplay abstractions...

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And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do, is able to be done by other classes with no cast time and no magic book.

 

Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes."

 

Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over"

 

Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!"

 

Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast"

 

The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game.

No really, it doesn't. Wizards are one of the most OP classes in both games because of their varied & powerful toolkits.

 

A small list of really good Wizard abilities:

Chill Fog

Any "Missles" spell

Most of their defensive buffs

Arcane Dampener (removes ALL positive effects)

Chain Lightning

Gaze of the Adrian

 

Sure all of these have a cast time, but the results for any of these are better than most of comparable martial classes abilities. Now if you wanted to compare Priests or Ciphers you'd have a better case. But Druids, Chanters & Wizards are all very solid classes that I would qualify as casters.

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You are conflating something that is common knowledge, with advanced scientific principals. My 8 year old cousin knows that working out equals big muscles. That is basic human biology. That's like saying because I know not eating = death, I have advanced scientific knowledge. 

 

You are purposely conflating common human knowledge with advanced scientific concepts. They are not the same thing, and you are doing it on purpose. Magic falls into advanced scientific concepts, hence why they have these people called wizards who spend years studying it. Trying to compare "me eat food, me get big" to science or magic, is ridiculous. 

 

As for the pilot, bad comparison because pilots are required to go to years of school to learn the concepts they will be using. So it is an invalid point. We are comparing layman barbarians and fighters to specialists in their field, with actual training (pilots). Apples and oranges. 

 

 

Fighters and Barbarians are specialists in their field with actual training. These are not laymen. These are individuals with at least as much practice in their specific professions as Wizards have at their respective levels. Furthermore, given how intrinsic magic is to the universe of PoE, many concepts of magic are commonplace. This is a high magic setting, remember. This is the point I'm trying to get across. In Eora, magic would be studied by anyone hoping to improve past a certain point in their martial expertise, and magic can be improved similar to a person's muscles because the soul is merely another component of their body. Learning how to harness it's power is absolutely comparable to learning how to harness the power of our bodies. 

 

EDIT: Additions/TL;DR

 

Wizards understand the nature of the world and the soul with far more depth, breadth, intricacy, and nuance than a Rogue or Barbarian, but it makes sense that those professions would also have some level of magical knowledge, and an understanding of how to harness their soul to supplement their abilities. Similar to how a sniper has some level of understanding of math to calculate trajectories and account for wind, temperature, pressure, etc. And even if they don't, the soul being part of the body means training it is, at least to some extent, similar to training your body. Wizards apply their knowledge to exponentially increase the potential power and variety of these abilities. 

 

--Apologies for all the edits.

 

 

I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

These are all gameplay abstractions...

 

 

They aren't though. How do you abstract throwing a glowing red weapon that bursts into a massive fireball? And an ingame description that states exactly that? How do you abstract the description of shadow step, where it clearly says the rogue steps into the beyond and appears somewhere else? They are not abstractions, they are literal

 

And when was the last time you killed someone by shouting at them..... Outside Skyrim.... with a red laser beam from your mouth. Not an abstraction

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And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do, is able to be done by other classes with no cast time and no magic book.

 

Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes."

 

Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over"

 

Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!"

 

Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast"

 

The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game.

No really, it doesn't. Wizards are one of the most OP classes in both games because of their varied & powerful toolkits.

 

A small list of really good Wizard abilities:

Chill Fog

Any "Missles" spell

Most of their defensive buffs

Arcane Dampener (removes ALL positive effects)

Chain Lightning

Gaze of the Adrian

 

Sure all of these have a cast time, but the results for any of these are better than most of comparable martial classes abilities. Now if you wanted to compare Priests or Ciphers you'd have a better case. But Druids, Chanters & Wizards are all very solid classes that I would qualify as casters.

 

 

I am not referring to simple gameplay mechanics and balance. I am referring to lore concepts! I could give a **** all about whether the wizard is actually weaker then other classes, but lore wise it makes no sense to be a wizard when you have Conan over here lighting his axe ablaze and throwing it for a massive explosion like Ares from God of War, and Loki over here insta-teleporting all over the map like the God of mischief himself.

 

It ruins the appeal, why have a wizard when pretty much everyone in the game is a wizard/god with comparable abilities. 

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I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

Ugh. You're going to make me launch the game up now, aren't you. Alright.

 

Rogues get the ability to Shadow Step at Power Level IV. 

Wizards at Power Level IV get access to Pull of Eora (essentially a black hole). 

Dimensional Shift (two person teleportation/swapping places + a seismic pulse effect).

Wall of Flame (summons a literal Wall of Fire)

Minor Grimoire Imprint (Allows them to steal a third level spell from any other spell list in the game)

 

Barbarians get Spirit Tornado at Power Level VII

Wizards at Power Level VII get Delayed Fireball (self explanatory)

Substantial Phantom (Creates a clone of themselves)

Citzal's Martial Power (One of the best buffs in the game)

Ninagauth's Killing Bolt (A spear that summons a Spectre if it kills it's target)

 

And this isn't including any spells that came before in the power levels below these. Play a Barbarian, and then play a Wizard. The difference is night and day.

 

 

Ya, you guys are not getting what I am saying. I get they are not exactly the same and the wizard has a wider selection. I get it... I get it.... I get it.... But the fact that BARBARIANS ROGUES, FIGHTERS and every other class in the game has access to powerful magic, that in most games are the realm of sorcerers and mages, ruins the whole concept of what a wizard is. It ruins the feel of being a powerful practitioner of magic, when many of your abilities are mimicked by every other class.

 

There is nothing special lore wise about a wizard, that doesn't really monopolize magic. The one thing that makes them unique, every other class has. You guys keep stating game play differences, I am talking about the lore. 

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I am not referring to simple gameplay mechanics and balance. I am referring to lore concepts! I could give a **** all about whether the wizard is actually weaker then other classes, but lore wise it makes no sense to be a wizard when you have Conan over here lighting his axe ablaze and throwing it for a massive explosion like Ares from God of War, and Loki over here insta-teleporting all over the map like the God of mischief himself.

 

It ruins the appeal, why have a wizard when pretty much everyone in the game is a wizard/god with comparable abilities.

So we've established that the setting makes logical sense internally, classes are relatively balanced for gameplay purposes, and are thematically very different. But you don't like how it all comes together? We come back to my point from a few posts ago: you don't like the POE setting. That's OK. There are other games out there that you might like better.

 

Why not just admit the POE setting is not to your tastes & move on? For most of this thread you have acted like those of us who disagree with you are intellectually inferior beings. Can't people just have different tastes?

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I am not referring to simple gameplay mechanics and balance. I am referring to lore concepts! I could give a **** all about whether the wizard is actually weaker then other classes, but lore wise it makes no sense to be a wizard when you have Conan over here lighting his axe ablaze and throwing it for a massive explosion like Ares from God of War, and Loki over here insta-teleporting all over the map like the God of mischief himself.

 

It ruins the appeal, why have a wizard when pretty much everyone in the game is a wizard/god with comparable abilities.

So we've established that the setting makes logical sense internally, classes are relatively balanced for gameplay purposes, and are thematically very different. But you don't like how it all comes together? We come back to my point from a few posts ago: you don't like the POE setting. That's OK. There are other games out there that you might like better.

 

Why not just admit the POE setting is not to your tastes & move on? For most of this thread you have acted like those of us who disagree with you are intellectually inferior beings. Can't people just have different tastes?

 

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

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I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

Ugh. You're going to make me launch the game up now, aren't you. Alright.

 

Rogues get the ability to Shadow Step at Power Level IV. 

Wizards at Power Level IV get access to Pull of Eora (essentially a black hole). 

Dimensional Shift (two person teleportation/swapping places + a seismic pulse effect).

Wall of Flame (summons a literal Wall of Fire)

Minor Grimoire Imprint (Allows them to steal a third level spell from any other spell list in the game)

 

Barbarians get Spirit Tornado at Power Level VII

Wizards at Power Level VII get Delayed Fireball (self explanatory)

Substantial Phantom (Creates a clone of themselves)

Citzal's Martial Power (One of the best buffs in the game)

Ninagauth's Killing Bolt (A spear that summons a Spectre if it kills it's target)

 

And this isn't including any spells that came before in the power levels below these. Play a Barbarian, and then play a Wizard. The difference is night and day.

 

 

Ya, you guys are not getting what I am saying. I get they are not exactly the same and the wizard has a wider selection. I get it... I get it.... I get it.... But the fact that BARBARIANS ROGUES, FIGHTERS and every other class in the game has access to powerful magic, that in most games are the realm of sorcerers and mages, ruins the whole concept of what a wizard is. It ruins the feel of being a powerful practitioner of magic, when many of your abilities are mimicked by every other class.

 

There is nothing special lore wise about a wizard, that doesn't really monopolize magic. The one thing that makes them unique, every other class has. You guys keep stating game play differences, I am talking about the lore. 

 

 

You're the one not getting it.  You have been shown, time and again, where you're just wrong - that this kind of "everyone has magic" is very common in fantasy media and is even present in some of the oldest of fantasy media.

 

Just because YOU do not like doesn't mean that everyone must dislike it, and then when you go off and insult "the new generation" as though you're some wise old sea dragon that just "knows better"... jesus ****ing christ, dude.

 

Just stop posting.  You done goofed, so just let it go.

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And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do,  other classes can do with no cast time and no magic book.

 

Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes."

 

Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over"

 

Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!"

 

Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast"

 

The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game. 

 

 

I am not referring to simple gameplay mechanics and balance. I am referring to lore concepts! I could give a **** all about whether the wizard is actually weaker then other classes, but lore wise it makes no sense to be a wizard when you have Conan over here lighting his axe ablaze and throwing it for a massive explosion like Ares from God of War, and Loki over here insta-teleporting all over the map like the God of mischief himself.

 

It ruins the appeal, why have a wizard when pretty much everyone in the game is a wizard/god with comparable abilities. 

 

 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. Wizard is my favorite class in this game, and I have a hard time not at least multiclassing into it. I have never had an issue with feeling like a Wizard while playing a Wizard, nor have I felt like a spellcaster while playing a non-spellcaster. Perhaps I just conceptualize everything different than you do. 

 

Five enemies stand scattered around a well. The wizard makes a quick calculation, and conjures an icy mist into the center of the soon to be battlefield. The barbarian leaps into the frontlines cracking the ground on impact, and lets out a howl that shakes the enemy warriors to the bone. Eyes red, he brings his axe roaring down on their heads, then retreats into the carefully placed fog cloud, luring the enemies into it. All except their mage who remains behind, and begins to chant. The rogue appears behind her in a flash of smoke, and stuns her out of her incantation, then summarily kills her. Meanwhile, the barbarian is clumsily flailing about in the blinding fog, surrounded by enemies, chipping away at them little by little. 

 

The wizard analyzes their wounds, and compares them quickly to the damage taken by his barbarian friend. A single well-placed fireball is all it will take, he concludes, and releases it into the fog annihilating everything inside. The smoke clears, a gentle calm settles, and the barbarian staggers back to his feet amidst the crowd of burnt-black corpses. 

 

(Obviously not a true story, and a super simplification of actual combat, but you get the idea. If I wasn't exhausted and felt like being creative, I would have used examples of the more interesting abilities and group coordination).

Edited by Neckbitbasket
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"A culture's teachings, and most importantly, the nature of its people, achieve definition in conflict."

- Kreia -

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I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

Ugh. You're going to make me launch the game up now, aren't you. Alright.

 

Rogues get the ability to Shadow Step at Power Level IV. 

Wizards at Power Level IV get access to Pull of Eora (essentially a black hole). 

Dimensional Shift (two person teleportation/swapping places + a seismic pulse effect).

Wall of Flame (summons a literal Wall of Fire)

Minor Grimoire Imprint (Allows them to steal a third level spell from any other spell list in the game)

 

Barbarians get Spirit Tornado at Power Level VII

Wizards at Power Level VII get Delayed Fireball (self explanatory)

Substantial Phantom (Creates a clone of themselves)

Citzal's Martial Power (One of the best buffs in the game)

Ninagauth's Killing Bolt (A spear that summons a Spectre if it kills it's target)

 

And this isn't including any spells that came before in the power levels below these. Play a Barbarian, and then play a Wizard. The difference is night and day.

 

 

Ya, you guys are not getting what I am saying. I get they are not exactly the same and the wizard has a wider selection. I get it... I get it.... I get it.... But the fact that BARBARIANS ROGUES, FIGHTERS and every other class in the game has access to powerful magic, that in most games are the realm of sorcerers and mages, ruins the whole concept of what a wizard is. It ruins the feel of being a powerful practitioner of magic, when many of your abilities are mimicked by every other class.

 

There is nothing special lore wise about a wizard, that doesn't really monopolize magic. The one thing that makes them unique, every other class has. You guys keep stating game play differences, I am talking about the lore. 

 

 

You're the one not getting it.  You have been shown, time and again, where you're just wrong - that this kind of "everyone has magic" is very common in fantasy media and is even present in some of the oldest of fantasy media.

 

Just because YOU do not like doesn't mean that everyone must dislike it, and then when you go off and insult "the new generation" as though you're some wise old sea dragon that just "knows better"... jesus ****ing christ, dude.

 

Just stop posting.  You done goofed, so just let it go.

 

This everyone has magic concept is common? Name the games, movies etc please... I can't think of a single one actually..... Ok, I lie divinity OS. Another product of the PC culture that everyone must be equal or else. 

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I put a lot of thought into "how can I make the character I want to play & have it feel awesome while considering the RP implications?"

 

For this reason, I will probably never have a paladin MC. The subclass options (which are mandatory) limit your RP choices vs. your gameplay power. There's several subclasses that I like the abilities for, but not the favored dispositions that go with them.

 

I try to think about what my Barbarian would do in the situations that I come across.

 

But no, I don't have long contemplation sessions about where my powers come from, or whether I am too similar to a wizard and thus should start wearing robes and only cast my Fireball weapon toss spell (it's not even that good, too expensive.)

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I put a lot of thought into "how can I make the character I want to play & have it feel awesome while considering the RP implications?"

 

For this reason, I will probably never have a paladin MC. The subclass options (which are mandatory) limit your RP choices vs. your gameplay power. There's several subclasses that I like the abilities for, but not the favored dispositions that go with them.

 

I try to think about what my Barbarian would do in the situations that I come across.

 

But no, I don't have long contemplation sessions about where my powers come from, or whether I am too similar to a wizard and thus should start wearing robes and only cast my Fireball weapon toss spell (it's not even that good, too expensive.)

Ya well, a person that plays a wizard generally thinks about that kinda thing. 

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Still waiting to hear all these fantasy stories where "everyone has magic" is so common.

 

In almost every story, wizards are revered, feared, powerful practitioners of occult arcane knowledge. That either takes years of study, is hidden and secretive knowledge, or you must be born with magic to use. I can't think of very many that don't fall into that category because there would not be much sense in a "wizard" archetype existing if everyone knew magic, would there?

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