Grimoire - in Pillars of Eternity 2...

[Crucis]

I really miss the old system.

 

I'm not sure that I like grimoires in either game.  That said, the version in PoE1 made more intuitive sense to me.  I haven't understood how grimoires are meant to be used in this game, at least until this thread.

 

Honestly, if/when there is a PoE3, I wish that they'd just dump grimoires entirely and just treat Wizards kinda like they did in BG2, i.e. you knew only those spells you had memorized that that was it.  (Plus whatever spell scrolls you happened to have.)  It just seems like a much more intuitive model. 

 

But unfortunately, it seems like someone has a real yen for having grimoires in the game.

[Purudaya]

There just aren't enough good spells at each level to justify a lot of grimoire switching - maybe on PoTD once it's tuned and spells need to be chosen more situationally, but otherwise players are going to pick their favorite spells at level up without too much influence from what's in their grimoire. Given that there are only 2 casts per level, they're probably not going to do a whole lot of experimenting with spells they didn't pick either (I know I didn't).

If more grimoires had unique spells not available at level up or if they allowed you to cast the two spells from the power level above your current one, it would be a totally different story. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Purudaya

[Tawmis]

 

I'm not sure that I like grimoires in either game.  That said, the version in PoE1 made more intuitive sense to me.  I haven't understood how grimoires are meant to be used in this game, at least until this thread.

 

But unfortunately, it seems like someone has a real yen for having grimoires in the game.

 

 

I'm glad I asked - and not alone - and everyone's input in this thread helps me out.

 

Like someone else mentioned in the game, I customized two Grimoires in POE1 (one for attack, one for defense)... in POE2, I have just been using which ever Grimoire is the most valuable... because it's been too much of a headache figuring out how it works (again, until this thread)... but now, I believe I am pretty close to the end of the game, so in the end, it's not going to matter too much.

[Gary1986]

Not a huge fan of the new system. When I use Aloth I just use him without any grimoire equipped. That way it avoids him casting aoe spells (that damage my own characters) I would of never picked for him to begin with.

[ArnoldRimmer]

It's a stupid idea - Devs wanted people to swap them but no one did. So now they are forcing you... Personally I haven't felt any need, I pick the spells on leveling and just keep the same book. It's a dumb idea, as you can't change the spells you selected so if you swap you may be able to cast less spells if the books spells are the ones you selected, plus half the ones in the books aren't what you want and end up never being used.

[theBalthazar]

The best idea to "interess the game" is to create more specific bonus.

 

Ok this grimoire add a fireball. But I have already this spell. However, why I can be interrested by this ?

 

Proposition.

 

Fireball + 1 penetration.

OR

Fireball + 5% of recovery.

 

Short, a more interresting approach to legitimate a separate function already available. The easy way to do this is to apply a bonus (minor or major) to ALL grimoires. Even a malus if the bonus is really more interresting and massive.

 

Personnally, I add a similar function for priest/druid (Same place than grimoires in inventory). Desserve-it.

Edited May 28, 2018 by theBalthazar

[algroth]

I do feel that the biggest shortcoming to the grimoires in the first game were that as soon as you extracted the spells you hadn't yet learned from them, they became pretty much useless, or one of the lot at least. I can understand the move towards making grimoires into items with a set selection of spells therefore, as it's an attempt to keep each as a distinct item from one another. But I also agree that in turn they're really a chore to sift through and gauge whether they are worth keeping or purchasing, or not. Wormerine's additions would probably really help in remedying this a little, and additionally I think a highlight for unique spells would be yet another nice bit of aid (like a golden border around the spell icon or something). It would certainly prove a lot more accessible and inviting for those who aren't familiar with the wizard's arsenal and would normally be overwhelmed by being forced to compare collections of eighteen spells against one another.

Edited May 28, 2018 by algroth

[Gary1986]

I've said a few times in other threads about this, they should add a new vendor that you can pay to swap spells around from different grimoires. This way you get to create you own grimoire, but at a cost of time and money.

[Slotharingia]

I've said a few times in other threads about this, they should add a new vendor that you can pay to swap spells around from different grimoires. This way you get to create you own grimoire, but at a cost of time and money.

It would give that useless

dead thief in Arkemyr's shop

something to do.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Slotharingia

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

I think either go back to how Grimoires were in POE 1 let us custom what we want.

 

or

 

Choose spells at level up, and have Grimoires add in spells that can't be added at level up and make Grimoires schools of magic based. That way grimoires full unique spells and more add to your character.

 

Examples

Necro grimoire

Fire & Water grimoire

Nature grimoire

Etc

[MortyTheGobbo]

I never used grimoires in Pillars, because the casting delay was too long. But it did eventually let Aloth learn every spell there was. To contrast, in Deadfire I actually swap out grimoires from time to time. That's an improvement in my book, but I agree that letting us rename them and show more clearly which of those spells we already know would help.

[Wormerine]

Not a huge fan of the new system. When I use Aloth I just use him without any grimoire equipped. That way it avoids him casting aoe spells (that damage my own characters) I would of never picked for him to begin with.

Sure, if you don’t want to manage your characer, more spells are not appealing.

 

Still, for those who were fine with 4spells per level in PoE1 it’s no problem - pick spells on level up and a random grimoire and you have more spells than in PoE1. I for one prefer how they are done now - I have “core” spells which do what I want my wizard to do, and Grimoires to add extra stuff.

[dunehunter]

The best idea to "interess the game" is to create more specific bonus.

 

Ok this grimoire add a fireball. But I have already this spell. However, why I can be interrested by this ?

 

Proposition.

 

Fireball + 1 penetration.

OR

Fireball + 5% of recovery.

 

Short, a more interresting approach to legitimate a separate function already available. The easy way to do this is to apply a bonus (minor or major) to ALL grimoires. Even a malus if the bonus is really more interresting and massive.

 

Personnally, I add a similar function for priest/druid (Same place than grimoires in inventory). Desserve-it.

I like the idea, so u can choose between diversity and specialization.

Edited May 28, 2018 by dunehunter

[soldre]

I really dislike the current implementation of grimoires.

 

Perhaps if grimoires were comprised exclusively of spells you cannot acquire anywere else, they would be more appealing to me.

 

Or if they gave nice casting bonus... but I only found 1 grimoire with any kind of bonus in the entire game, and it had such a heft penalty that make it basically useless.

[Erik Dirk]

You all seem to forget that you can be a multi class and choose no spells.

Probably not intended and a reason to change the system though.

[evilcat]

You all seem to forget that you can be a multi class and choose no spells.

Probably not intended and a reason to change the system though.

It is not a bug, it is the feature.

I played Wizard/Sorcerer, could also work with /Priest or /Chanter.

And was relaying about rare grimoire, and minimal investment in spells in each class. So was spamming same spells over and over again.

I would even call it fun.

However it is hard to find "perfect" grimoire, and there are spells which i want to cast exacly once (like self buffs) or are very situacional, so it is around 10 spells from levels to round things up.

[Nights86]

I think a system that could work is to give grimoires item progression and item flavors, and a mix of open slots PoE1 style and fixed slots PoE2 style.

 

For example the most basic grimoire would have 2 open slots at each level. The mega awesome grimoire found at the end of some hard dungeon would have 5 open slots of each level. Some fire grimoire found in a volcano would have 2 slots + 2 fixed fire spells at each level.

 

You write the spells you know from level up into the open slots. You can use the fixed spells too. But you cannot cast anything that isn't in your equipped grimoire.

 

And to not make leveling up pointless or multiclassing always better, grimoire fixed spells that you also learned on level up are cast at higher power level, or some other kind of "proficiency" bonus. That way if you decide to be a fire mage, finding the fire grimoire is actually an upgrade, and learning fire spells on level up wasn't a waste.

[Rulin]

I think grimoires should only contain unique spells so they never overlap, or upgrades to already learned ones (Fireball +1). But not the same spells you can learn while leveling up.

It is just too confusing and it forces you to respec a couple of times.

 

Better UI info for already learned and/or unusable spells would be nice to have though.

 

Especially when playing a wizard subclass, that has restrictions on certain schools, the lack of UI indicators makes them even more confusing, because you have to look for books that have spells your char can cast.

 

I had to take screenshots of my spellpage and many grimoires to find an acceptable book for my Illusionist. It still has 4 spells I cannot use. :/

Edited May 30, 2018 by Rulin

[Midnight Voyager]

The grimoires are so goddamn hard to read that I never bother looking at new ones. My eyes just gloss over when I look at them. So I never end up bothering with them at all.

[Magnum Opus]

Overall, I prefer the Pillars 1 model, I think.  At least there, hunting for spells provided a bit of interest.  Pillars 2 just had me tailoring my spell choices at level up around the grimoire that appeared when my character started the game.  Whether they were "unique" grimoires or not, super-expensive or not, all of the books I found simply didn't provide enough utility -- with a subclass, you're can count on at least 1 spell per level that your character can't cast... out of only 4 or 5 spells total, we're talking a full 25%+ of any given book that's unusable by default -- or incentive for me to switch out anything.

 

The real problem I found with restricting spell choices for wizards in each game, though, is that EVERY character in your party has so many spells and spell-like abilities that there's no point to switching grimoires for your wizard character.  I either have the spell I want, or I'll get my fighter to do it for me.  I'll get my rogue to do it for me.  They're all balanced out anyway, so they're all equally valid.

 

Heh.  Essentially, I've already got five grimoires with me in this game; my Tome of Help and Harm (aka Priest), my Tome of Martial Masteries (Fighter), my Book of Shadows (Rogue), my Big Book of Forceful Attitude Adjustments (Paladin), my book of Plants and Animals: Not Just for Dinner Anymore (Druid), etc.  They're more ambulatory than I usually think of books as being, and they talk back more than most, but really... clicking on each character is me choosing my set of spells already.  No point to choosing a set within a set, not when the overall set will have something just as good.

 

Am curious as to how many people who DO switch out grimoires are playing with Party AI enabled.  I manage each of my characters without it (does this game have basic auto-attack, BTW?  I recall my characters just standing around after their current foe was dispatched, instead of wailing on the OTHER guy that was beating on them already), but for those that DO let the party NPCs do their own thing, I can see how switching would hold at least a little more appeal.

[Epimetreus]

...

Am curious as to how many people who DO switch out grimoires are playing with Party AI enabled.  I manage each of my characters without it (does this game have basic auto-attack, BTW?  I recall my characters just standing around after their current foe was dispatched, instead of wailing on the OTHER guy that was beating on them already), but for those that DO let the party NPCs do their own thing, I can see how switching would hold at least a little more appeal.

I switch between party AI and full micromanagement, with a slight bias toward party AI due to the [current] ease of Veteran mode. I’ve got custom AI behavior that focuses on the spells and abilities that each party member has, though.

 

I have a bag full of grimoires, and find myself switching VERY rarely.

[Magnum Opus]

Hm... not much incentive to switch even there, then, with AI shouldering much of the load for NPCs.  I'm thinking that it might boil down, in part, to time management; people managing all characters manually simply won't have as much time to fiddle with grimoires on Wizards as someone who's only controlling the Wizard would. Is more to it than just that, though, obviously.

 

Whatever the reasons, am simply not much a fan of the current Deadfire approach.... not least because it takes the "acquisition of knowledge" aspect away from the wizard profession.  Spell hunting was a big thing for me in Pillars 1, along with the odd moral quandary that went along with it (do you get a slew of new, unique, and otherwise unattanable spells, or do you let the wizard confronting you actually destroy the evil immortal skull floating around behind you?).   In Deadfire, it's just random:  Do you luck out and find a book that has spells you want to use, that you don't already have, and that you're even able to use, or do you just... make do with what you choose at level up, with the bonus spells from your grimoire being just that: bonus.  Nice to have, but nothing to worry about?

[dranck]

It would be nice to be able to craft or buy a custom grimoire from a vendor.

[Epimetreus]

As a minimum, when they’re considering quality of life changes, I’d like to see some way of highlighting, in the spell choice interface while leveling up, spells that are in grimoires you’ve currently got - maybe a tooltip-style hover message, or something in the right-click information panel. I hate having to close out of leveling up just to check whether I’ve already got the spell I just decided on.

[Jayngo]

They supplement the spells wizards learn from levelling. You can cast any that you've picked on level-ups, plus any in your equipped grimoire. I've found them much more practical than in PoE 1, to be honest.

Ohhhhh. I had no clue this is how it worked. I assumed all spells were based on what were in the book. So, if I have picked spells when I level up those are ALSO included on top of whatever book I choose to use as well?

 

If so, it makes a lot more sense to me now. Up to this point, I hadn't changed a grimoire!