Why do all the factions require me to be evil?

[Slotharingia]

 

You still make the choice that you find consistent with the character you are playing.

 

Not if the choice isn't available. If you're playing a pure good (or evil) character and the game devs have decided to remove pure good or evil choices for the sake of "thinking" or reflecting "real world choices," then you've just been screwed over.  The choice you made to play that character is no longer a vaild one in that game. Either you have to change your concept or quit. I'm on the side of more choices for roleplaying in roleplaying games, not less.

 

I think their point is that there's no such thing as pure good in pratice a lot of the time. Eothas, who I think is supposed to be "good", has to cause massive devastation in order to pull his plan through. Even Thaos wasn't purely evil in the sense of doing bad things for kicks; he thought he was doing the right thing, similar to Eothas, except he was driven by the concept of Kith needing gods, even fake ones, and Eothas is driven by the idea of Kith being in control of their own fate.

 

Ultimately, if you are trying to play an evil character, you'd pick whatever faction you think serves your personal purpose best, or kill everyone if you are a "nuke everything" type of baddy (be it to end all or get rid of anyone who's not your minion). If you want to be good, you'd pick whoever you think is best dpending upon what kind of "good" you are, or just leave them to it and do it alone. The game also provides examples of variants on a theme. So, for instance, you might be pro kith autonomy re. the gods and then decide the Huana should be controlled by Rautai because of their caste system, which might make you rethink whether your stance was really the best one / and or strengthen your opinion if you believe the Huana are wrong in this but it's up to them to change themselves, etc.

[Zeitzbach]

You can't really be evil for smiting the Huanas.

 

Remember, they eat Koiki fruit.

Koiki is purple Durian. And let me tell you, durian is hella smelly, so smelly it spreads everywhere within a room and a half radius.

 

Now imagine a whole continent with them.

 

We're being the hero the deadfire need. 1 less Koiki at a time toward a rose-scented ocean.

[PatrioticChief]

You can't really be evil for smiting the Huanas.

 

Remember, they eat Koiki fruit.

Koiki is purple Durian. And let me tell you, durian is hella smelly, so smelly it spreads everywhere within a room and a half radius.

 

Now imagine a whole continent with them.

 

We're being the hero the deadfire need. 1 less Koiki at a time toward a rose-scented ocean.

 

Have a rec.

 

On another note I think I'd rather come back to this with a sharper and more accurate opinion. If a dev wanted to lock it that's fine with me, though by all means let folk continue to discuss. I'm just not a big fan of that first post I made after some of the arguments I've heard here. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by PatrioticChief

[Sarakash]

I really like how the factions are presented in Deadfire. They all have clear distinct motivations and their leaders reflect a sort of justification to reach their set goals. Gaining a position of power in a tug of war like it´s presented in the game through benevolence seems unplausible to me.

 

The more I got to know the factions, the more it got me thinking about them or how my choice might influence the region. It reminded me at my own puny attempts as a GM to get my players thinking about their decissions in a given scenario. If they start to discuss not about the how but the why, I felt like I have achieved the goal I was going for. 

[Tarlonniel]

Just to bring this home, how would you change the game so that it worked the way you want - add two more factions?

 

This particular game is fine - you can ally with one of the factions full of boring, terrible people, or tell them to get bent and handle the endgame yourself. The devs did it exactly right. Now folks who care about that stuff can sit on the forums and argue fine shades of gray and other folks can ignore all that and everyone's satisfied. Sort of.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[FecklessFool]

 

 Just to bring this home, how would you change the game so that it worked the way you want - add two more factions? 

 

 

I would just make it so that you had some real influence with the faction you sided with and be able to steer them to some extent to the path that your character would take. 

Being able to pick who to install as chief isn't all it's made out to be considering how things were implemented in the game. 

 

Not only are you a lapdog to the gods, but if you choose to side with a faction and have that come up in the ending, you also end up as a lapdog to a faction. 

 

What a useless guy this Watcher character is.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

You still make the choice that you find consistent with the character you are playing.

 

Not if the choice isn't available. If you're playing a pure good (or evil) character and the game devs have decided to remove pure good or evil choices for the sake of "thinking" or reflecting "real world choices," then you've just been screwed over.  The choice you made to play that character is no longer a vaild one in that game. Either you have to change your concept or quit. I'm on the side of more choices for roleplaying in roleplaying games, not less.

 

I think their point is that there's no such thing as pure good in pratice a lot of the time. 

 

 

 

True, but in the real world you can be a paragon of virtue and still be limited by the powers that be and the imperfect choices that you are presented with in our imperfect world. That happens in Eora too. it seems realistic rather than escapist - should the game not do that?

[Yonjuro]

 

 

 Just to bring this home, how would you change the game so that it worked the way you want - add two more factions? 

 

 

I would just make it so that you had some real influence with the faction you sided with and be able to steer them to some extent to the path that your character would take. 

Being able to pick who to install as chief isn't all it's made out to be considering how things were implemented in the game. 

 

Not only are you a lapdog to the gods, but if you choose to side with a faction and have that come up in the ending, you also end up as a lapdog to a faction. 

 

What a useless guy this Watcher character is.

 

 

 So, it's good training for real life, then? j/k 

 

 Anyway, it sounds like you want to be able to, for example, voice your misgivings about the RDCs political assassinations and see that have an effect on their policies due the prestige you've earned from your actions. Is that the idea? I think that could work without changing the spirit of the game.

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

 Just to bring this home, how would you change the game so that it worked the way you want - add two more factions? 

 

 

I would just make it so that you had some real influence with the faction you sided with and be able to steer them to some extent to the path that your character would take. 

Being able to pick who to install as chief isn't all it's made out to be considering how things were implemented in the game. 

 

Not only are you a lapdog to the gods, but if you choose to side with a faction and have that come up in the ending, you also end up as a lapdog to a faction. 

 

What a useless guy this Watcher character is.

 

 

That's kind of the point though. In PoE 1, you really are too powerful and it all stems from you having your own keeps. You reputation skyrocket, you have your army, you have a land, etc.

 

PoE 2 is different. You're on someone else turf. You have no land of your own. You have no army. All you have is a bunch of crews on your ships. Outside your skills, you have no influence. You really are just as the queen say, a freelancer, an extra pawn no one can control to break the current stalemate.The Ruantai fleet can easily sink your ship multiple times if they wish to do so. They just choose not to. There's really not a single full-scale fight the watcher can win. It just so happen that none can lift a hand to do so without weakening their side and get bounced out of the fight.

 

The battle between 4 factions is a battle of ideology, what each of them view as the rightful state of the Deadfire. Considering how long and intense they have been fighting each other, persuasion should stay off the table because there's really no reason for them to cooperate as none of them are in any real immediate danger with a common enemy. Even Eothas doesn't really care about them so unless he stomp all over Neketaka, there's no reason for them to view him as an immediate threat.

[PatrioticChief]

 

 

 

 Just to bring this home, how would you change the game so that it worked the way you want - add two more factions? 

 

 

I would just make it so that you had some real influence with the faction you sided with and be able to steer them to some extent to the path that your character would take. 

Being able to pick who to install as chief isn't all it's made out to be considering how things were implemented in the game. 

 

Not only are you a lapdog to the gods, but if you choose to side with a faction and have that come up in the ending, you also end up as a lapdog to a faction. 

 

What a useless guy this Watcher character is.

 

 

The battle between 4 factions is a battle of ideology, what each of them view as the rightful state of the Deadfire. Considering how long and intense they have been fighting each other, persuasion should stay off the table because there's really no reason for them to cooperate as none of them are in any real immediate danger with a common enemy. Even Eothas doesn't really care about them so unless he stomp all over Neketaka, there's no reason for them to view him as an immediate threat.

 

 

Has there been this long intense war? And don't they know he is trying to break the wheel to end life as we know it? Not saying them bickering regardless is poor writing but I think that claim is inaccurate that he doesn't represent an immediate threat. 

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

 

 Just to bring this home, how would you change the game so that it worked the way you want - add two more factions? 

 

 

I would just make it so that you had some real influence with the faction you sided with and be able to steer them to some extent to the path that your character would take. 

Being able to pick who to install as chief isn't all it's made out to be considering how things were implemented in the game. 

 

Not only are you a lapdog to the gods, but if you choose to side with a faction and have that come up in the ending, you also end up as a lapdog to a faction. 

 

What a useless guy this Watcher character is.

 

 

The battle between 4 factions is a battle of ideology, what each of them view as the rightful state of the Deadfire. Considering how long and intense they have been fighting each other, persuasion should stay off the table because there's really no reason for them to cooperate as none of them are in any real immediate danger with a common enemy. Even Eothas doesn't really care about them so unless he stomp all over Neketaka, there's no reason for them to view him as an immediate threat.

 

 

Has there been this long intense war? And don't they know he is trying to break the wheel to end life as we know it? Not saying them bickering regardless is poor writing but I think that claim is inaccurate that he doesn't represent an immediate threat. 

 

About 65 years ago the RDC launched a full-scale actual invasion of the Deadfire. They *massaccred* the Wahaki tribe--the most-dominant tribe at the time--at the Battle of Nakaro Atoll. In response, the Kahanga tribe sent a group of Watershapers at the RDC's flagship and sank the **** out of it, and the RDC proceeded to back off basically out of fear. The VTC ramped up their presence in response to all of this.

 

So the RDC is literally just waiting. It's not a "they might want to conquer us through military force" thing; it's a "they're waiting for the right moment to ****ing conquer us through military force" sort of thing.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Katarack21

[FecklessFool]

 

 

 

 Just to bring this home, how would you change the game so that it worked the way you want - add two more factions? 

 

 

I would just make it so that you had some real influence with the faction you sided with and be able to steer them to some extent to the path that your character would take. 

Being able to pick who to install as chief isn't all it's made out to be considering how things were implemented in the game. 

 

Not only are you a lapdog to the gods, but if you choose to side with a faction and have that come up in the ending, you also end up as a lapdog to a faction. 

 

What a useless guy this Watcher character is.

 

 

That's kind of the point though. In PoE 1, you really are too powerful and it all stems from you having your own keeps. You reputation skyrocket, you have your army, you have a land, etc.

 

PoE 2 is different. You're on someone else turf. You have no land of your own. You have no army. All you have is a bunch of crews on your ships. Outside your skills, you have no influence. You really are just as the queen say, a freelancer, an extra pawn no one can control to break the current stalemate.The Ruantai fleet can easily sink your ship multiple times if they wish to do so. They just choose not to. There's really not a single full-scale fight the watcher can win. It just so happen that none can lift a hand to do so without weakening their side and get bounced out of the fight.

 

The battle between 4 factions is a battle of ideology, what each of them view as the rightful state of the Deadfire. Considering how long and intense they have been fighting each other, persuasion should stay off the table because there's really no reason for them to cooperate as none of them are in any real immediate danger with a common enemy. Even Eothas doesn't really care about them so unless he stomp all over Neketaka, there's no reason for them to view him as an immediate threat.

 

That's just tired writing at this point. The whole 'obvious huge threat killing thousands and causing destruction and we don't care we must bicker' is just tired writing at this point. 

 

Plus if you have no influence why is everyone trying to curry favor with the 'famous' Watcher? And why do you even need to do them favors? You're there for Eothas. Such a weird disjoint from the main quest.

[Casper]

you know what i would have liked in lieu of an actual good guy ending.

 

the attempt to bring about a longshot potential good guy ending or at least the setup for one that falls flat on it's face. a complete failure every time, where at least there's the option to try for it.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Casper

[Tagaziel]

As for why it's written that way, I think they were going for a "no one is fully good/evil, just shades of grey" - GRRM style,

How long have you been playing Black Isle/Obsidian/Troika games? Because moral grayness is the defining feature of their games, even as far back as Fallout 1 and the baby steps taken by the devs in mature storytelling. Hell, a year later they've given us Fallout 2, which focuses on the conflict between New Reno, New California Republic, and Vault City for control of Northern California, where no side is clean and righteous. Even the NCR, ostensibly the morally upstanding side, is in cahoots with the Bishops of New Reno to force Vault City into submission and coerce them into accepting NCR's military occupation, while the expansion towards Vault 15 to vindicate Tandi's policies includes the option to torture a hapless prisoner for information.

 

So PoE2 is the usual fare for Obsidian.

[Zeitzbach]

 

That's just tired writing at this point. The whole 'obvious huge threat killing thousands and causing destruction and we don't care we must bicker' is just tired writing at this point. 

 

Plus if you have no influence why is everyone trying to curry favor with the 'famous' Watcher? And why do you even need to do them favors? You're there for Eothas. Such a weird disjoint from the main quest.

 

 

Eothas is a huge threat to watcher because he deals a blow to the watcher personally and the gods also get us into this mess. It's not a super big threat to all the other factions because Eothas isn't going around destroying towns for the sake of destruction. Doesn't help that those who get to see him kinda die if we aren't there to help so they don't get to report anything. They don't even know there's a giant green walking man until we start investigating Hasongo for them. Considering that only RDF really got major stomped by Eothas, the other 3 are pretty much happy about it.

 

PoE 2 is a giant Act 2 of PoE 1 and the same reason to why we're helping them is the same reason why we go around doing quests in Defiance Bay. You don't really need any of them but they help to gain some footings. That is all. It's why it's possible to skip all of them but only if we know all about world before hand. Your favors only happen to be really necessary when Ukaizo is mentioned and discovered. Before that, they don't even care if you betray them and will forgive you. You're a major risk/profit in their calculation just so they can operate without getting screwed by the other side and it's mentioned multiple time. It's only until Ukaizo is mentioned that the risk of you being around is as high as the grand profit and it's why they all choose to completely disregard you if you don't work with them anymore.

 

So between losing your home to one of the other factions and dealing with this one "threat" that won't effect any of them for at least hundred year, you can weight and see what's more important to the leader of each faction. None of them know what will happened if the wheel is broken but they all know darn well what will happen if they don't get to Ukaizo first.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[FecklessFool]

How do they know it won't affect them until much later? Did Eothas let them know while he was on his way to Hasongo? Dang, what a nice guy that Eothas if you ignore all the thousands he's killed for his soul guzzling suv, and all the brutal deaths and tortures sanctioned to his enemies in the Saint's War.

[Zeitzbach]

Just read what Aeldys have to say and you can already see how they all react this to.

 

"Eothas gonna destroy the wheel? What's gonna happen to my soul then? Bah, It's not like anything will happen until I'm dead so I will just go to Ukaizo, take all the richest and turn Deadfire into a pirate land"

 

That's the exact reaction given by all 4 leaders with different benefit. Huana wants to restore themselves to glory. Vailian what all the luminous adra for all the research and profit that can easily be used to strengthen them, like the teleport adra being used for attacks. RDF wants the potential tech which will obviously lead to more weapon for domination.

 

While you are focused on Eothas destroying the Wheel of soul, all 4 factions are looking at the other wheel. The wheel of motion to conquest. All of them are sitting on throne of corpses already with blood on their hand from all the order they send to be carried out to get the other side killed. All of them are like Eothas, willing to sacrifice for what they believe is the best for their people.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Mazama]

The watcher starts off feeble, broke, and an outsider from another country. You're just a privateer with a very useful talent to most people. I like that you have to get your hands dirty if you want to participate in power politics, and shape the future of the deadfire. You always have the option of going solo as your only obligation is to find Eothas. The other factions are simply there as a potential ally to help you achieve that goal.

 

The factions are aware of Eothas. He sank several Principi fleets, stomped by Port Maje, wiped out Hasongo, and the dawnstars are drawn to the region like moths. They just hear reports of a soul draining god in a giant statue running amok, and they're understandably reluctant to believe it. The problem is that they're all too short-sighted to see that a rampant deity might constitute an apocalyptic threat. If you straight up tell them that breaking the wheel means all life ends in a few generations due to souls being stuck in limbo, they'll still squabble and plot.

[Siegdarth]

I did play a totally good character and I didn't feel any kind of forced evil. Destroyed the Principi, Destroyed Delver's Row, Freed the Dragon while maintaining watershaping, sided with the Huana, but convinced takehu to reform their unfair caste system and convinced the royalty to feed the roparu. Helped the Valian to advance animancy, but destroyed the evil research, killed/arrested the priestess on Wahaki island for the deaths of the valians. 
In my entire playthrough, I didn't choose any "evil" choice or even morally ambiguous ones. 
I even made an alliance with the Naga on Hasongo =P. 

I did use intimidation sometimes to get good results, don't think this as being evil =P. 

[Casper]

I did play a totally good character and I didn't feel any kind of forced evil. Destroyed the Principi, Destroyed Delver's Row, Freed the Dragon while maintaining watershaping, sided with the Huana, but convinced takehu to reform their unfair caste system and convinced the royalty to feed the roparu. Helped the Valian to advance animancy, but destroyed the evil research, killed/arrested the priestess on Wahaki island for the deaths of the valians. 

In my entire playthrough, I didn't choose any "evil" choice or even morally ambiguous ones. 

I even made an alliance with the Naga on Hasongo =P. 

 

I did use intimidation sometimes to get good results, don't think this as being evil =P. 

however, did you still blowup the powder-keg at the citadel? a few people think that's not particularly good, if not evil in and of itself. me, i'm on the fence there. though imho it doesn't seem to be particularly good to me.

[Aramintai]

Helped the Valian to advance animancy, but destroyed the evil research, killed/arrested the priestess on Wahaki island for the deaths of the valians. 

Uh, what evil research are you talking about exactly? Is it Giacolo's about godlike? I wouldn't call that evil after the gods confessed to making them as their emergency batteries or bodies to possess.

Or is it about luminous adra in Tikawara? Adra itself wasn't evil, but Vailian research was indeed. Though I didn't see an option to destroy those papers, just to give them to various people.

 

Also, what's that about the Wahaki island? Is it Ori o Koiki? I don't recall them doing anything against VTC, just the slavers at Crookspur.

[wRAR]

Also, what's that about the Wahaki island? Is it Ori o Koiki?

 

I'm sure it's Tikawara.