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One key element is also her mentioning how the next leader takes up the last one's cause: Her worry isn't simply that she killed an innocent, it's that she killed an innocent without a good reason. Whether there's ever a good reason to kill an innocent is up for debate, of course, and it's never going to be the moral thing to do, but it's something I liked about her reasoning.

 

I'm not sure I understand why people are using the term "innocent" for the person Maia killed. She killed the leader of an Huana tribes which are all members of the warrior cast. That leader was a warrior, one of the best in his village going by how they are selected too. Rauatai is invading the Deadfire, all warriors are enemies to them, especially the ones trying to unit tribes to opposite outsiders which is what that leader wanted to do.

 

The quest seems to be an allegory for military preemptive strikes programs actually.

 

If they fight and die during open battle then fine, because both side are not "innocent". But assassinate a person who is not hostile yet and didn't commited evil deed( at least not mention ), I consider it as killing innocent.

Edited by Ildun
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One key element is also her mentioning how the next leader takes up the last one's cause: Her worry isn't simply that she killed an innocent, it's that she killed an innocent without a good reason. Whether there's ever a good reason to kill an innocent is up for debate, of course, and it's never going to be the moral thing to do, but it's something I liked about her reasoning.

 

I'm not sure I understand why people are using the term "innocent" for the person Maia killed. She killed the leader of an Huana tribes which are all members of the warrior cast. That leader was a warrior, one of the best in his village going by how they are selected too. Rauatai is invading the Deadfire, all warriors are enemies to them, especially the ones trying to unit tribes to opposite outsiders which is what that leader wanted to do.

 

The quest seems to be an allegory for military preemptive strikes programs actually.

 

I think you're taking the term "warrior caste" a bit too literally, since every noble, administrator and priest of the Huana's a member of it as well. By that logic, killing a group of Huana diplomats or bureaucrats is perfectly logical since they are technically "warriors". Ranga's in particular are selected at birth, if I remember correctly, which technically means they're born directly into rulership, not warriorhood.

 

Also, Rauatai isn't invading the Deadfire again (yet), or they wouldn't have bothered hiding the continuous supply of gunpowder, armaments and cannons behind a trading company.

 

He's considered an innocent since 1) He's the leader of a local tribe who merely wants to unite his people, and while Rauatai understandably sees it as a theat, there's nothing that says he opposes the presence of outsiders 2) Even if he was opposing Rauatai interests in his beliefs, he hasn't done anything that would warrant a kill order. I'm not saying Rauatai getting rid of him isn't understandable, but it was definitely not moral for them to do so, nor did the chief deserve to be shot.

 

The quest is definitely an example of preemptive strikes though, and Rauatai seems rather fond of the "Divide and Conquer" strategy often used against a scattered, decentralized people. The combined focus on diplomacy with the bigger tribes, dominance over the weak ones, and manipulating a network of alliances and spies to keep it all under control reminded me of Caesar's work in Gaul, except in a more advanced age.

Edited by Taevyr
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One key element is also her mentioning how the next leader takes up the last one's cause: Her worry isn't simply that she killed an innocent, it's that she killed an innocent without a good reason. Whether there's ever a good reason to kill an innocent is up for debate, of course, and it's never going to be the moral thing to do, but it's something I liked about her reasoning.

 

I'm not sure I understand why people are using the term "innocent" for the person Maia killed. She killed the leader of an Huana tribes which are all members of the warrior cast. That leader was a warrior, one of the best in his village going by how they are selected too. Rauatai is invading the Deadfire, all warriors are enemies to them, especially the ones trying to unit tribes to opposite outsiders which is what that leader wanted to do.

 

The quest seems to be an allegory for military preemptive strikes programs actually.

 

I think you're taking the term "warrior caste" a bit too literally, since every noble, administrator and priest of the Huana's a member of it as well. By that logic, killing a group of Huana diplomats or bureaucrats is perfectly logical since they are technically "warriors". Ranga's in

particular are selected at birth, if I remember correctly, which technically means they're born directly into rulership, not warriorhood.

 

The Mataru cast is composed of warriors and priests and you are born into your cast. They don't have administrators, diplomates or bureaucrats. It is the chieftain, lead priest and their top warriors/hunters/priests who administrate the tribe, talks to visitors and make deal with strangers.

 

The ranga are not selected a birth, they are selected based on accomplishments with fighting and hunting and comes from the Mataru cast. Kahanga tribe being the only exception where they select the most tactically minded Mataru-born instead. It's not hereditary.

Edited by morhilane

Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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Also, Rauatai isn't invading the Deadfire again (yet), or they wouldn't have bothered hiding the continuous supply of gunpowder, armaments and cannons behind a trading company.

 

Actually they do kind of hide it. You can see it in Hasongo, if you take Maia with you and press one of the surviving Rauataians (the girl i think) about their canons and excess of gunpowder, Maia cuts her off telling her something like "did I ask for the report of your inventory, soldier". It rubbed me the wrong way because Rauatai is hiding the research they were doing in Hasongo, and Maia doesn't want you to know about it.

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Emissary Tar: At last, someone who looks like they could be of some assistance! The assorted boobs and dimwits around here have been of very little help.
 
Charname: I’m afraid you have mistaken us for someone else. I’m Dimwit, this is my good friend Boob, and behind me you’ll find Brainless and Moron. How do you do? 
 

 

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Also, Rauatai isn't invading the Deadfire again (yet), or they wouldn't have bothered hiding the continuous supply of gunpowder, armaments and cannons behind a trading company.

 

Actually they do kind of hide it. You can see it in Hasongo, if you take Maia with you and press one of the surviving Rauataians (the girl i think) about their canons and excess of gunpowder, Maia cuts her off telling her something like "did I ask for the report of your inventory, soldier". It rubbed me the wrong way because Rauatai is hiding the research they were doing in Hasongo, and Maia doesn't want you to know about it.

 

that's.... kind of what i meant, though I could have been more clear in hindsight. Didn't quite get that subtext on Hasongo myself though, nice catch.

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What I really don't get how Aloth's weak confession about how he belongs to Leaden Key can be met with an outrage and demand for him to leave immediately, but with Maia she just shuts you down.

 

Aloth did not sabotage animancers nor did he report to Leaden Key during your time with him. He did absolutely nothing to harm our Watcher or anyone else. 

 

Maia assassinated a Huana tribe chief and I can't even kick her out? Why is my only choice at that point to kill her or let her stay with me? 

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What I really don't get how Aloth's weak confession about how he belongs to Leaden Key can be met with an outrage and demand for him to leave immediately, but with Maia she just shuts you down.

 

Aloth did not sabotage animancers nor did he report to Leaden Key during your time with him. He did absolutely nothing to harm our Watcher or anyone else. 

 

Maia assassinated a Huana tribe chief and I can't even kick her out? Why is my only choice at that point to kill her or let her stay with me? 

I'm pretty sure you can kick her out. Wasn't there a dialogue option like, "I never want to see you again?"

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No no. It's only Godwin's Law if I direct it at you as an epithet - which, for the record, I am absolutely not doing. (Everybody: Yonjuro doesn't think that Taevyr is one of those guys.) It is the case, in the modern world, that carrying out an order you know to be illegal doesn't absolve you from the crime - that was my point. Your point about not judging an premodern culture by modern rules is a good one (and something that lot of people forget when they look at history).

 

 Anyway, in Eora,  they probably haven't made that law about following illegal orders (and maybe assassination is just fine and dandy in this culture), but the moral issue is similar and it was the morality of the choice that we were discussing. Maia's assignment seems to be a lot less of a gray area than the bounties and, Maia, as a character, seems to know that (meaning that she knows that she has done something wrong, not she has an opinion about the bounties).

 

Ah, I mistook the Nuremberg thing then :wacko: . Sorry for that, since the moral side of "following orders" is definitely at play here, lawful or not.

 

I definitely agree that Maia's assignment is less gray than the bounties,  especially since no-one was supposed to know it even happened and the target's a civilian.  But i think Maia handled it well: while she did carry out the assignment, she's not going to hide the fact that it shook her and she doesn't agree with using those methods at all. One key element is also her mentioning how the next leader takes up the last one's cause: Her worry isn't simply that she killed an innocent, it's that she killed an innocent without a good reason. Whether there's ever a good reason to kill an innocent is up for debate, of course, and it's never going to be the moral thing to do, but it's something I liked about her reasoning.

 

P.S. I have to say, I'm kind of surprised by how civilized these discussions are over here. Most fora I know would've stoked up a flame war already.

 

 

 I agree with your assessment of Maia and also of this board. There are good discussions and fewer flame wars. I suspect that a wide age range and that the content of Obsidian's games attracting people who like to talk about them may be some of the reasons for that.

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Well, I got to the ending slides after fumbling both missives missions and Fort Maje's one is bugged in the ending slides. Atsura said that the spy had to leave Port Maje due to complications but in the ending slides it is said that the spy not only assassinated governor Clario but Huana village's leader as well  :rolleyes:  Reported it as bugged:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/100920-maias-quest-bug-in-ending-slides/

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What I really don't get how Aloth's weak confession about how he belongs to Leaden Key can be met with an outrage and demand for him to leave immediately, but with Maia she just shuts you down.

 

Aloth did not sabotage animancers nor did he report to Leaden Key during your time with him. He did absolutely nothing to harm our Watcher or anyone else. 

 

Maia assassinated a Huana tribe chief and I can't even kick her out? Why is my only choice at that point to kill her or let her stay with me? 

I'm pretty sure you can kick her out. Wasn't there a dialogue option like, "I never want to see you again?"

 

I remember only "Give me one good reason not to tell the entire world about what you did", to which Maia responds with something like "I dare you".

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I remember only "Give me one good reason not to tell the entire world about what you did", to which Maia responds with something like "I dare you".

 

Yeah, she just tells you "back off Cap" and thats it.

You either agree with her and discuss how to better perform her assassinations to have "more effect" or she shuts you down. I like that there is a character that stands up to the PC, but there should be an option to tell them to get the heck off my ship.  You could tell Durance that in POE1 at any time, I don't see why Maia should be different.

Edited by Aridea
Emissary Tar: At last, someone who looks like they could be of some assistance! The assorted boobs and dimwits around here have been of very little help.
 
Charname: I’m afraid you have mistaken us for someone else. I’m Dimwit, this is my good friend Boob, and behind me you’ll find Brainless and Moron. How do you do? 
 

 

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I've gone through the thread, but couldn't find what I needed, or maybe I missed it.

 

I want to stop the assassinations, but I'm having problems with the Port Maje one. Tuaha refuses to go with the missive until the stlaker is dealth with. Pushing the dialogue leads to something along the lines of "Maia I prefer to deal with you" and then Maia "yeah I'll deal with this", after which the quest progresses to the "deal with the stalker" phase and that can only be solved by scaring him away or killing him. After that the quest is successful.

 

In order to stop this, I'm thinking of several posibilities:

  • I'm missing enough diplomacy or whatever to force Tuaha to accept the "stalker is not real" story. What exactly do you need to convince her if that's possible?
  • the quest is bugged and can only be succesfully completeled. Is that the case?
  • if I progress the quest to "deal with the stalker" and then just leave it like that, will that cause a "success" end slide? (as in the assassination successful)
  • simply not touching the quest at all. Will that prevent the assassination?

I haven't even tried the other one, but I imagine it's easier, unless equally buggy.

 

Lastly, killing Maia. Does this solve the issue?

 

Thanks.

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I've gone through the thread, but couldn't find what I needed, or maybe I missed it.

 

I want to stop the assassinations, but I'm having problems with the Port Maje one. Tuaha refuses to go with the missive until the stlaker is dealth with. Pushing the dialogue leads to something along the lines of "Maia I prefer to deal with you" and then Maia "yeah I'll deal with this", after which the quest progresses to the "deal with the stalker" phase and that can only be solved by scaring him away or killing him. After that the quest is successful.

 

In order to stop this, I'm thinking of several posibilities:

  • I'm missing enough diplomacy or whatever to force Tuaha to accept the "stalker is not real" story. What exactly do you need to convince her if that's possible?
  • the quest is bugged and can only be succesfully completeled. Is that the case?
  • if I progress the quest to "deal with the stalker" and then just leave it like that, will that cause a "success" end slide? (as in the assassination successful)
  • simply not touching the quest at all. Will that prevent the assassination?
I haven't even tried the other one, but I imagine it's easier, unless equally buggy.

 

Lastly, killing Maia. Does this solve the issue?

 

Thanks.

If you don't complete the objective the assassinations don't happen. But then the quest isn't completed.

 

I believe you need to pass a diplomacy skill check that persuades /goads her to take it by talking about her duty to the RDC. It *is * possible to make her just take it without handling the stalker.

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I've gone through the thread, but couldn't find what I needed, or maybe I missed it.

 

I want to stop the assassinations, but I'm having problems with the Port Maje one. Tuaha refuses to go with the missive until the stlaker is dealth with. Pushing the dialogue leads to something along the lines of "Maia I prefer to deal with you" and then Maia "yeah I'll deal with this", after which the quest progresses to the "deal with the stalker" phase and that can only be solved by scaring him away or killing him. After that the quest is successful.

 

In order to stop this, I'm thinking of several posibilities:

  • I'm missing enough diplomacy or whatever to force Tuaha to accept the "stalker is not real" story. What exactly do you need to convince her if that's possible?
  • the quest is bugged and can only be succesfully completeled. Is that the case?
  • if I progress the quest to "deal with the stalker" and then just leave it like that, will that cause a "success" end slide? (as in the assassination successful)
  • simply not touching the quest at all. Will that prevent the assassination?
I haven't even tried the other one, but I imagine it's easier, unless equally buggy.

 

Lastly, killing Maia. Does this solve the issue?

 

Thanks.

If you don't complete the objective the assassinations don't happen. But then the quest isn't completed.

 

I believe you need to pass a diplomacy skill check that persuades /goads her to take it by talking about her duty to the RDC. It *is * possible to make her just take it without handling the stalker.

 

 

Thanks for the answer.

 

I managed to convince her, it was the dialogue line about self sacrifice (diplomacy and something else I forget what). I was choosing the wrong options.

 

The other guy was easy enough to deal with, and I got the dialogue from the guy at Brass Citadel about how Harama died and Tuaha had to leave sooner than expected. So it should be ok, as long as the ending slides aren't still bugged.

 

Now I only have to decide if it's worth going through the rest of the game and be really frustrated at end if it turns out it's bugged, or just kill Maia and be done with it. Or not touch the quest.

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I've gone through the thread, but couldn't find what I needed, or maybe I missed it.

 

I want to stop the assassinations, but I'm having problems with the Port Maje one. Tuaha refuses to go with the missive until the stlaker is dealth with. Pushing the dialogue leads to something along the lines of "Maia I prefer to deal with you" and then Maia "yeah I'll deal with this", after which the quest progresses to the "deal with the stalker" phase and that can only be solved by scaring him away or killing him. After that the quest is successful.

 

In order to stop this, I'm thinking of several posibilities:

  • I'm missing enough diplomacy or whatever to force Tuaha to accept the "stalker is not real" story. What exactly do you need to convince her if that's possible?
  • the quest is bugged and can only be succesfully completeled. Is that the case?
  • if I progress the quest to "deal with the stalker" and then just leave it like that, will that cause a "success" end slide? (as in the assassination successful)
  • simply not touching the quest at all. Will that prevent the assassination?
I haven't even tried the other one, but I imagine it's easier, unless equally buggy.

 

Lastly, killing Maia. Does this solve the issue?

 

Thanks.

If you don't complete the objective the assassinations don't happen. But then the quest isn't completed.

 

I believe you need to pass a diplomacy skill check that persuades /goads her to take it by talking about her duty to the RDC. It *is * possible to make her just take it without handling the stalker.

Thanks for the answer.

 

I managed to convince her, it was the dialogue line about self sacrifice (diplomacy and something else I forget what). I was choosing the wrong options.

 

The other guy was easy enough to deal with, and I got the dialogue from the guy at Brass Citadel about how Harama died and Tuaha had to leave sooner than expected. So it should be ok, as long as the ending slides aren't still bugged.

 

Now I only have to decide if it's worth going through the rest of the game and be really frustrated at end if it turns out it's bugged, or just kill Maia and be done with it. Or not touch the quest.

Yeah! You should be good.

 

I don't think you can stop Maia from her objective. I don't know if it matters for the end slides though?

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I've gone through the thread, but couldn't find what I needed, or maybe I missed it.

 

I want to stop the assassinations, but I'm having problems with the Port Maje one. Tuaha refuses to go with the missive until the stlaker is dealth with. Pushing the dialogue leads to something along the lines of "Maia I prefer to deal with you" and then Maia "yeah I'll deal with this", after which the quest progresses to the "deal with the stalker" phase and that can only be solved by scaring him away or killing him. After that the quest is successful.

 

In order to stop this, I'm thinking of several posibilities:

  • I'm missing enough diplomacy or whatever to force Tuaha to accept the "stalker is not real" story. What exactly do you need to convince her if that's possible?
  • the quest is bugged and can only be succesfully completeled. Is that the case?
  • if I progress the quest to "deal with the stalker" and then just leave it like that, will that cause a "success" end slide? (as in the assassination successful)
  • simply not touching the quest at all. Will that prevent the assassination?
I haven't even tried the other one, but I imagine it's easier, unless equally buggy.

 

Lastly, killing Maia. Does this solve the issue?

 

Thanks.

If you don't complete the objective the assassinations don't happen. But then the quest isn't completed.

 

I believe you need to pass a diplomacy skill check that persuades /goads her to take it by talking about her duty to the RDC. It *is * possible to make her just take it without handling the stalker.

Thanks for the answer.

 

I managed to convince her, it was the dialogue line about self sacrifice (diplomacy and something else I forget what). I was choosing the wrong options.

 

The other guy was easy enough to deal with, and I got the dialogue from the guy at Brass Citadel about how Harama died and Tuaha had to leave sooner than expected. So it should be ok, as long as the ending slides aren't still bugged.

 

Now I only have to decide if it's worth going through the rest of the game and be really frustrated at end if it turns out it's bugged, or just kill Maia and be done with it. Or not touch the quest.

Yeah! You should be good.

 

I don't think you can stop Maia from her objective. I don't know if it matters for the end slides though?

 

 

As far as I can tell her own mission, which she does when she temporarily leaves, cannot be stopped and does not feature in any ending slide. She just smugly tells you about how pointless her mission was and I think we're supposed to bond with her and giggle over the murdered huana chief who was advocating for peace. A bit annoying but oh well.

 

I'm quite a long way from end so I won't know too soon if the ending slides are bugged, since I decided to do the quest (and sabotage it as much as possible).

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Yeah! You should be good.

 

I don't think you can stop Maia from her objective. I don't know if it matters for the end slides though?

 

 

As far as I can tell her own mission, which she doe when she temporarily leaves, cannot be stopped and does no feature in any ending slide. She just smugly tells you about how pointless her mission was and I think we're supposed to bond with her and giggle over the murdered huana chief who was advocating for peace. A bit annoying but oh well.

 

I'm quite a long way from end so I won't too soon if the ending slides are bugged, since I decided to do the quest (and sabotage it as much as possible)

Yeah, I'm fairly certain that, once the other objectives of "Courier's calling" are completed, she'll end up following her own orders no matter what. Wouldn't make sense for her character to do otherwise, either: she's dutiful to a fault. Maia herself indicates that it shouldn't affect anything when she tells you how the new chief simply took up the old chief's torch of peace; nothing's changed by the event.

 

Also, I'm genuinely wondering how you got the impression she was smug over the whole assasination affair? To me it seemed she more like she was shaken by the whole affair, especially since the assassination was rendered meaningless by the new chief.

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Step 1: Maia tells me she assassinated someone.
Step 2: I threaten to tell the entire Deadfire about what she has done.
Step 3: Maia says nobody would believe it.
Step 4: I pull out Dragon's Dowry and shoot her in the head point blank.

 

...
 

Step 5: She heals back to full between every shot, and doesn't react at all.
Step 6: Weep.

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You are right about the letter of marque and that they were in theory officially sanctioned, but apparently the sanction only applied to countries at war. Undoubtedly government essentially used them as mercs, though they didn't pay them, essentially they were on "commission". However, they were also used against countries that were not at war. Apparently Queen Victoria used them against Spain when they were not at war, so the terms of the contracts were invalid. She did that so she could deny any responsibility.

 

From what I can remember of the conversation with the Ruatai officer who hands out bounties, there was no mention of a contract? I'm pretty sure he made a pretty speech about how Ruatai are not at war with the VTC or Huana, and they would never engage in any underhanded behavior that would jeopardize their relations.... that as he hands over bounties:) But I could have made a mistake, I'll have to check sometime.

 

If i'm not mistaken, the Rauatai officer says that they have paperwork legitimizing the use of privateers against every target he gives, and that "they'll know we're at war when we stop handing in paperwork" or something like that. So it seems more like every faction implicitly agrees that using independent parties to eliminate enemy assets is ok, so long as the factions don't get directly involved.

 

I was going to say the exact same thing and can confirm that you are not mistaken, including the line about knowing they are at war when they stop handing in the paperwork.

"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

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...

 

 

As far as I can tell her own mission, which she does when she temporarily leaves, cannot be stopped and does not feature in any ending slide. She just smugly tells you about how pointless her mission was and I think we're supposed to bond with her and giggle over the murdered huana chief who was advocating for peace. A bit annoying but oh well.

 

I'm quite a long way from end so I won't know too soon if the ending slides are bugged, since I decided to do the quest (and sabotage it as much as possible).

 

 

Yeah. The ending slides are still bugged. I failed both missive deliveries and yet at end I get the "assassination succesful" slides.

And that's just one of MANY MANY bugs, and this just concerning the ending and the slides. Meh. Whatever.

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Yeah. The ending slides are still bugged. I failed both missive deliveries and yet at end I get the "assassination succesful" slides.

And that's just one of MANY MANY bugs, and this just concerning the ending and the slides. Meh. Whatever.

 

 

Ah man, that's frustrating as hell.  Sorry that happened. :(

 

I never finished it, but I accidentally helped one of the cases, and the ending slides fit that scenario.  I'm somehow not surprised that actually doing it the right way is the one that's bugged.

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Maia made my spider sense go off the very first moment she opened her mouth. Not only does she admit to being a spy right off the bat, confirming the queen's warning, but she also presents a mutiny situation as her introductory dialogues. What honest person is going to make their first introduction a "Hey, so if your whole crew turned against you, how would you handle that...exactly...spare no details.  Oh, btw, I'm a spy."  

 

Heck no, bird whisperer, you can march your giant sneaky spy self back to the Brass Citadel.

 

Plus, she dogged on Kana.  Kana was my Samwise Gamgee in PoE1. No one can dog that innocent flower of a scholar and be a good person.   :verymad:

 

On a side note (and less rabidly angry one), is it possible to actually remove her from the ship/companions?  I mean outside of death. 

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Maia made my spider sense go off the very first moment she opened her mouth. Not only does she admit to being a spy right off the bat, confirming the queen's warning, but she also presents a mutiny situation as her introductory dialogues. What honest person is going to make their first introduction a "Hey, so if your whole crew turned against you, how would you handle that...exactly...spare no details.  Oh, btw, I'm a spy."  

 

Heck no, bird whisperer, you can march your giant sneaky spy self back to the Brass Citadel.

 

Plus, she dogged on Kana.  Kana was my Samwise Gamgee in PoE1. No one can dog that innocent flower of a scholar and be a good person.   :verymad:

 

On a side note (and less rabidly angry one), is it possible to actually remove her from the ship/companions?  I mean outside of death. 

 

My character simply chose the "cruel" option in the dialogue (lighting a fuse and jumping out of the ship). Feel free to try, Maia, you know what will happen. :bat:

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