Master Dahvernas

You make absolutely NO sense... And you have too high an opinion of yourself as well. Everything I posted is relevant to this discussion. I addressed what is going on in the video game industry right now whether you want to admit it or not. Let me guess? Are you some high paid CEO or CFO of some huge gaming corporation somewhere? I highly doubt it, but if you are... Truth hurts, don't it, buster? I posted what I did because no one ever talks about this aspect of the business on any forum for any game. You're free to disagree with it if you want... But saying, "Shut up, man" is the most immature thing I have seen from anyone, anywhere on the internet in a LONG time... And I've seen plenty of little wannabes like you who think they have the final say on how the real world works get all bent out of shape when someone questions how and why things are the way they are. Like I said. I made a thought out post. All you did was act like a two-year old having a tantrum because they didn't agree. As stated, you're the one who looks like a fool here and you keep proving my point. Please seek professional help if you get this upset about something posted on the internet. Seriously. And if threw your little tantrum just to get the thread closed you are nothing but a Forum Troll and an immature child, regardless of chronolgical age, and people will remember you for it if they don't know it already.

How old are you? 12? You sound like an eight year old who doesn't know how to interact with others online, let alone in real life. All you do is keep insisting that console games "suck" and pc games are better because you say so without backing any of it up. You're the one who looks like a fool compared to me and a few others who can actually put together coherent thoughts. This is called freedom of speech. Either grow up and accept it, or learn to deal with people's opposing points of view. Trying to get around the language filter is bad... -Battlewookiee

The game was never finished to begin with and there is nothing left that LA or Obsidian can do to finish it. Do you (in general) really think the high quality movie and music patch would have improved the game that much? Truth be told, I think a lot of gamers were in a little denial that this would be some kind of "savior" for the game. ***** As some have already stated, most have moved on and already finished the game four, five months ago. If this had been an MP game, I gurantee the support would have been better and more forthcoming. Why? Because they would be "forced" to in some degrees because MP games have a faster word-of-mouth reputation than SP games and having lackluster MP support... While common for a lot of games... Would have hurt Obsidian even more than the current lack of support since this is OE first launch title. ****** As for why this is the only legal industry on the planet Earth that has no regulations... Because no one is willing to do the hard work and set regulations and enforcement of those regulations up in a professional manner. To set up some kind of Quality Product Standards board/organization would take time and money... Time and money that is going to come from where? EA? UBIsoft? LucasArts? Let's tackle the Elephant in the Room and state none of these corporations want this kind of regulation because it would then hold them accountable for the products they produce... And we've seen how shoddy these products are. Hell, this industry begrudgingly created the ESRB -- The volutary ratings games all have -- So they could appease mainstream law makers and moral watch dog groups. Do you really think they want an entity (that has both the power and authority) that could hold them accountable for the quality of the products they put out? As it stands now, at the very minimum, the only thing they are held liable for is if it is somehow PROVED -- key -- Their game caused bodily harm to a user -- Meaning, if the game itself somehow overloaded a monitor/TV, or caused a short circuit in a comptuers/consoles power supply and it exploded or caused a fire that injured someone (not some deranged kid goes on a school shooting rampage and then says, "The game made me do it"). Again, the big factor here is if it can be proved on the part of the consumer (there are a million ways coporate lawyers can argue none of the above is the part of the game's code/design itself). In addition, if some third party organization/individual/government (U.S.) entity tried to set something like this up, EA, UBI, LA, Valve and others would band together and scream "Free Trade Restriction!" and "Unfair business practices!", blah, blah, blah to the FTC and other corporate lobbyists in Washington and that would be the end of that. Because again, they would be held accountable for the products they produce. Also, let's be honest: Video games are an intangible form of entertainment and not a necessity or product that has the very real potential -- key -- To hurt someone if used (im)properly. A car does and can. A chemical fertilizer does and can. A jet airliner does and can. An 18-wheeler traveling across the country does and can. This is why there are standards and regulatory agencies for these industries and none for the video game industry and probably never will be.

Please. Not another, "I am so L33T because I play games on a PC and not console" debate. News Flash: PLAYING VIDEO GAMES ON ONE SYSTEM, OR ANOTHER DOES NOT MAKE YOU SUPERIOR NO MATTER WHAT YOUR EGO TELLS YOU! There is a reason why console systems are now more profitable and more user-friendly than PC games as much as die-hard PC gamers don't want to admit: 1) They innovate. Have you played the game "Mercenaries"? It is a third-person, Grand Theft Auto-style, freeroam, over-the-top military style shoot'em up that has a MINIMUM of 52 open-ended levels PLUS side-quests and mini-games you can do along the way and you can even play the game AFTER you finish the main quest (52 mission/levels). And this is on a system that is basically a 1999-era PC (a 733 Pentium III and GeForce 2 graphics card with a total of 64 MB of RAM). How about Fable? This is one of the most fun, open-ended RPGs on any system. Sure, it's not as "serious" as KOTOR -- If that is even possible considering this is freakin' Star Wars in the first place -- But it is a persistent world that has day and night cycles; you can interact with NPCs a hell of a lot more than in any of the KOTOR games; what you do actually DOES change the storyline AND how NPCs view you -- and not in scripted cut-scenes either; actually IN THE GAME as you play -- As well as your character ages; can get married; there are Same-Sex relationships allowed; You can buy real estate AND play the game beyond the core storyline just like Mercenaries when you are done just to name a few. Again, this is for an "obselete" system and hardware the XBox carries. 2) Console games must meet an established set of standards (for all consoles) before they are allowed to go gold. This is fact. There is no way in Hell the PC games segment would survive with such standards in place because half of the stuff that is put out these days would never make it to gold status (which would be a good thing for consumers in the long, but bad for companies because it would force them to complete their games and make sure they are of the highest quality). Sure. No game on any platform is perfect... BUT they have to be a lot more functional and complete than KOTOR II was/is to be allowed on the console as a majority of console games are [KOTOR II is the anomoly because I am pretty sure it was allowed to pass "as is" purely based on the popularity, aka profits, of the first one as well as LA's name]. Again, ironic there exists more standards for systems with outdated hardware than the latest and greatest rigs that either Intel or AMD can put out, huh? 3) The new XBox 360 and PS3 are going to be basically high-end gaming rigs with hardware that not even the PC gaming enthusiast market is going to have yet. This means no longer will the games be restricted by 1999-era hardware and this should let developers innovate even more which means BETTER quality products in all areas including visuals, gameplay, sound and online as well. But if you want to keep telling yourself that you are superior because you play games on a PC than a console... Please, do us all a favor and get a life.

You are the very reason why the PC games industsry is in such bad shape and why huge publishers like EA and LA can put out unfinished CRAP -- Because people like you will gobble it up and be like Oliver Twist, "Please sir, can I have some more?" Also, as talented as the modders in the KOTOR community are... They are not developers and should not have to finish, or correct major bugs in the game and we should not treat them as "Gods" or "Psuedo-Devs" as a lot of people in the community do. I am sorry, but that is also the truth as I have seen it go to their heads on many occassion on the modding forums for KOTOR. Also, on a semi-related note there is a reason why console systems are now more profitable and more user-friendly than PC games as much as die-hard PC gamers don't want to admit: 1) They innovate. Have you played the game "Mercenaries"? It is a third-person, Grand Theft Auto-style, freeroam, over-the-top military style shoot'em up that has a MINIMUM of 52 open-ended levels PLUS side-quests and mini-games you can do along the way and you can even play the game AFTER you finish the main quest (52 mission/levels). And this is on a system that is basically a 1999-era PC (a 733 Pentium III and GeForce 2 graphics card with a total of 64 MB of RAM). How about Fable? This is one of the most fun, open-ended RPGs on any system. Sure, it's not as "serious" as KOTOR -- If that is even possible considering this is freakin' Star Wars in the first place -- But it is a persistent world that has day and night cycles; you can interact with NPCs a hell of a lot more than in any of the KOTOR games; what you do actually DOES change the storyline AND how NPCs view you -- and not in scripted cut-scenes either; actually IN THE GAME as you play -- As well as your character ages; can get married; there are Same-Sex relationships allowed; You can buy real estate AND play the game beyond the core storyline just like Mercenaries when you are done just to name a few. Again, this is for an "obselete" system and hardware the XBox carries. 2) Console games must meet an established set of standards (for all consoles) before they are allowed to go gold. This is fact. There is no way in Hell the PC games segment would survive with such standards in place because half of the stuff that is put out these days would never make it to gold status (which would be a good thing for consumers in the long, but bad for companies because it would force them to complete their games and make sure they are of the highest quality). Sure. No game on any platform is perfect... BUT they have to be a lot more functional and complete than KOTOR II was/is to be allowed on the console as a majority of console games are [KOTOR II is the anomoly because I am pretty sure it was allowed to pass "as is" purely based on the popularity, aka profits, of the first one as well as LA's name]. Again, ironic there exists more standards for systems with outdated hardware than the latest and greatest rigs that either Intel or AMD can put out, huh? 3) The new XBox 360 and PS3 are going to be basically high-end gaming rigs with hardware that not even the PC gaming enthusiast market is going to have yet. This means no longer will the games be restricted by 1999-era hardware and this should let developers innovate even more which means BETTER quality products in all areas including visuals, gameplay, sound and online as well. This is why the consoles are replacing PC gaming and it is no wonder considering the mess KOTOR II is (was) and how OE and LA treated their customers who spent good money on an unfinished game.

The correct term is "slowdown" for SP games. Lag only refers to the delay in online games where there is a lag between the time the server sends info. and you process it. The reason I am being anal about this is because when you go to diagnose a problem and help someone there needs to be a specific distinction between offline and on -- Which is moot for KOTOR, but I just thought I'd bring it up for G.P. Also... Revan The Great: Turning on vsync has nothing to do with the vertex buffer objects problem this Odyssey engine has. What you were experiencing was tearing which probably looked like slowdown, but it went away when you turned vsynch on because that is what vertical sync does; it only draws the number of frames your monitor can handle and syncs them with the vertical refresh rate.

I've never had a problem with an Nvidia card overheating. That was probably due to other things like bad ventilation, drivers -- there was a temperature bug that caused Nvidia cards to run hot a while back -- Or just that particular card having a bad heatsink. I go back and forth between Nvidia and ATI and have no loyalty to either brand. I want what is best at the current moment and ATI was when I bought my 9800 Pro. Now, Nvidia is back on top with the 6800 and 7800. Hopefully, ATI will come out with something soon that will equal these two in both D3D and OGL.

The reason for the performance hit is because this game does not cull objects you don't see and is "overloading" your GPU. If you look toward a map your video card is being forced to "render" everything on the map even if you don't physically see it. If you turn toward a wall at the edge of a map the frame rate goes up because this is the boundry of the map and there is nothing beyond that wall except virtual space. The reason the game runs better on an Nvidia card is because it is an OpenGL game and Nvidia has always done better with OGL games than ATI. This is not fanboy talk. This is fact and proved by ATI's very poor OGL performance compared to Nvidia in other OGL titles like Quake III engine games (Jedi Knight series) and Half-Life mods like Counter-Strike and countless others..

I know you're trying to be the cool rebel here and "go along with the crowd"... But technicaly speaking, the reason it won't be is because of the multi-part encryption that SF 4 has going for it that other copy protection schemes do not. This is a factor whether you want to admit it, or not. It is also the real reason none of the "scene" groups have cracked it. They can front all they want about it not being worth it, or not having time to compete, blah, blah, blah. The fact is they couldn't do it because it is not a simple exec hack like most protection schemes are. The only known workaround for SF 4 involves the use of USB external drives.

Missing my point, as usual. What is important is that there is a No-CD patch available for games released only recently. That's all that matters. ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But that is NOT the point and it DOES matter. The StarForce used on "Restricted Area" is an OLDER version (3.0.x). It is an exprimental version and therefore, had some holes in it. It is also the cheaper of the SF protection packages game publishers and devs can buy. The version newer games like SC:CT and future games are going to have is called "Professional and Commercial Level Security Measures" aka SF 4.0.x., and that HAS NOT been cracked yet and probably won't be for the reasons I went into before. You are trying to make a case and generalize about SF when there are varying factors and that is the distinction that needs to be made, here.

This is an older version of StarForce than SC:CT and others. Just like Vampire The Masquarade used an older version. I love it when people immediately try and "one up" someone without doing their research first. ---- RE: Piracy in general... The big issue that needs addressing is most of the leaked copies that hit the internet weeks before the retail release come from INSIDE the actual game companies themselves. In a lot of cases, there is no other way a copy of the game could have been distributed without it having come from inside the company... OR from their distribution chain (some stores like EB and others get advanced copies and their employees play these games early and that is another source of the pirating right there). However, a lot of the big game publishers and devs don't want to admit this because it means they'd have to admit there is a problem on THEIR end regarding security measures and it is always easier to blame someone else (the pirates) for problems that they should be taking care of in the first place. I am not condoning piracy, but acknowledging a very real factor here that no one ever talks about and is the real root of the piracy issue as far as game devs and publishers are concerned. Also, the games industry is just like mainstream Hollywood in they produce a lot of crappy products and when people don't go to the movies (and don't buy and just pirate games) they always blame the consumer instead of looking at themselves and admitting they aren't putting out very good products that warrant the public's hard earned money to begin with. Instead, they point fingers at movies being downloaded off the net as the "real" source of why overpaid and undertalented actors like Ashton Kutcher can only make $10 million per picture and not $20 million. It's a ridiculous system -- both the movie and games industry -- and full of hypocracy if we are going to be blunt. Honestly, what was the last game you bought in the last two, three years you thought was worth it? The only one that fits this criteria in my mind is UT2004 because it is a complete package out-of-the-box and warrants a $50 USD price tag at launch. UT2004 has SP, MP, CO-OP, over 32 maps, Bot Support, Editing Tools and even the SDK shortly after initial sales. To me, that is "bang for my buck"... Unlike most games... Be they either MP or SP... Where you're left scratching your head wondering why is this game priced so high since there isn't even half the content that was promised AND or the content you do have is so buggy it might was well be a beta, post-alpha release... So, in essence, I whole heartedly agree that the cure for piracy is producing quality products.... But that is not the mainstream game industry right now. Quantity -- Like the umpteenth billion sequel to the latest sports franchise or FPS -- Is more important to big corporations/publishers than quality... As evidenced by KOTOR II if we are going to be blunt.

What makes StarForce unbeatable is that unlike most game's copy protection schemes, it resides in not just the executable, but other files (the SF drivers that are installed "hook" into your IDE channels on your mobo to identify how many physical drives you have... As well as virtual drives... ) that make up the game itself like .ini files, sound files; even a .bik movie could have a sum check on it. While most sum check schemes can be gotten around what is different with StarForce is that it comes with an unlock code that specific to that particular disc and installation and has to be verified right after installation and every time you play the game. A key-gen can't get around this because no one knows the algorithm that is used to generate the keys... And even if you managed to find a working unlock key, it probably would not match the image of the original game disc or DVD that the copy was made from. Basically, what SF aims to do is two fold: 1) Isolate the activation of one disc per user via verification key code on install. 2) Prevent an actual image (.iso; .bin; mspd; etc.) of the disc of DVD from being copied in the first place and thus, distributed. They seem to be doing a good job of this considering that these two areas are the "backbone" of the pirate scene more than any other format or process. Also, the reason the earlier SF protection schemes were "hacked" was because they were still experimental. The new versions are not only fully integrated, but can be updated via the web (not even with the users knowledge if they have 24/7 broadband like most people) as well as any patch that a game producer makes can contain NEW check sums and verifications that weren't in the previous patch/version. So it is almost an air-tight system they've developed. The only other copy protection scheme I know of that can't be cracked are the profesisonal level, high security schemes that require a USB key -- A physical key -- That is inserted into a USB port that unlocks the game either for the initial install, or whenever you play it. VBS1 - Virtual Battlefield Systems is the only "game" -- it's not really a game; it is a training simulator -- That I know of that uses a USB key to unlock and I gurantee no one is going to try and burn a copy of this "game" for that reason alone (let alone it is a series of discs that total up to $300+ for the core files needed to run the sim).

KOTOR II uses Secur Rom 7.x.x -- Brand new version of Securom.

The only copy protection that hasn't been officially "cracked" is StarForce. Why? Because it installs drivers into your system* that authenticate not just the disc, but also individual game files -- like sound files, ini. files, even video files -- And not just the core executable where 99% of most CD-Protection schemes lay. Splinter Cell: Choas Theory is currently the "test bed" product for this new copy protection scheme and apparently it is working as planned as many pirate groups have given up on cracking it... Because they can't. This is relevant to this discussion because unfortunately, SC:CT is a big franchise game for PC gamers and did well enough that I am sure other companies (UBISoft publishes it) will start to use it now that it has been proven effective and this will mean the end to NO-CD cracks in the near future. This may be good for game companies, bad for consumers because SF has a lot of compatibility issues let alone other things like many gamers take offense to the fact that when installing the game, nowhere does it state additional drivers are installed. Also, there have been reports that SF is unsafe as far as OS security is concerned because they did not work with MS and others to make sure their product is compatible (secure) with regard to those drivers that are installed without gamer's knowledge.

If you notice, I haven't posted in a while... Namely because this game is dead. Yeah, I am going to dust off that old cliche... Because in this case, it really is the truth. KOTOR2 is not a MP game like Guild Wars, or NWN. There is no real community to keep it going. You play through it twice (Light/Dark) and that's about all she wrote. There is a mod community... But come on. Most of the mods just add additions to the game that are personal "wants" and needs, I.E. My Exile can use Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber hilt. I can have cool new "made up" Force powers. Wow. Big deal. None of those change the butchered story whatsoever. However, the main reason I am posting is because as much as the fanboys and perhaps OE doesn't want to admit... Their reputation is severely tarnished now and they are going to have to work double the amount they normally may have had to rebuild that reputation with NWN2 and possibly KOTOR III if they get the contract (Side Rant: Get a company who actually LIKES the SW universe to do a SW RPG in the near future!). We can justify their problems with the realities of the game industry and the slave-labor type conditions most devs have to work under... BUT, as someone said, release as many buggy games as there have been and people eventually have enough and it will eventually come to bite them in the arse just like Troika and other startup dev houses.

These maps are not optimized. The game also uses a lot of particle effects -- the smoke in the Jek Jek Tar and mining tunnels -- And Nvidia cards, especially the FX series, are much slower when it comes to particle rendering than ATI cards. This engine also doesn't cull objects properly like modern engines do. That means every single thing on a level is being rendered even if you physically can't see it. A prime example is when you enter, or look out over the Refugee sector. The engine is rendering every single NPC and enviornment detail (rooms, doors, NPCs, tables, chairs, shadows if enabled) that you can't see across the map and on upper levels (Serorcco level) and this is adding more processing to your CPU and GPU.

Why? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

The real, technical reason this happens is because there is an error in the rendering code the Odyssey Engine uses with regard to Vertex Buffer Objects. Vertex Buffer Objects have to do with storing calculations in your frame buffer and the error is it doesn't do this correctly which means slower calculations that equal lower FPS. This also effects your CPU since your CPU has to process an abnormal amount of inefficient code to the point it slows the game down to almost zero frames per second. Even an AMD64 rig -- Any high-end CPU --Can be brought to its knees when the code isn't properly otpimized or has errors in it like this one. This is relevant because if you have a low-to-mid-range CPU, you're going to see the effects a lot more severly than if you have a high end (Pentium VI, 3.2+; AMD64) CPU as well. In addition, what type of card (Nvidia or ATI) you have also greatly affects how severe you may experience this problem since the Odyssey engine is an outdated OpenGL engine and historically will perform better on Nvidia hardware as Nvidia has superior OGL drivers compared to ATI. This isn't "fanboy" talk, this is fact.

Thanks for your efforts, Crazy Joe! Not to be a Gloomy Guss... But if you don't hear anything, can we safely assume this game is toast and chalk it up to being a rushed game with no fixes in sight? I'd hate to have to not recommend this game to people, but in its current state I just cannot in good conscience recommend anyone buy it. And it isn't the price (it is coming down now that it has been out a few months). It is the principle of the thing. This game is not finished in every sense of the word and, imo, has serious story issues as well. Even with the subjective story issues aside, purely as a technical product, it falls below even passing standards in a lot of respects. Anyway, thank you for your efforts, but I am preparing for the worst. The worst being you don't get any kind of replay at all as that means they are trying to shove this under the rug. Well, I will shove NWN2 under the rug and not buy it if it turns out like TSL...

The main, technical reason that you can't mod KOTOR to be more like TSL is the core executables and game functions have changed, I.E. the code base itself has changed. Even the model format for the player models (among others) has changed which is one big reason why you can't "import" heads from KOTOR into TSL to give a better selection to choose from at character creation. There are legal reasons, obviously, but the more accurate one is the games are two entirely different programs in terms of what they do as well as how the new models... Like flowing robes... Are programmed to react to these changes. Interesting Note: Bioware was going to do the sequel to KOTOR, but then opted to let Obsidian do it. This is why a majority of the original models, except for major ones like Jolee and Juhani, are still in the game, but just not unlocked or used at all in TSL, but this is a moot point since the code base changed as a result of OE's efforts anyway.

It appears that you either purposefully, or inadvertantly either downloaded or were sold a pirated copy. There is nothing you can do and as cold as this sounds, most people here are going to assume you just downloaded the game illegally and not help you.

The main, technical reason KOTOR is so different from TSL is the core engine has been modified to accomodate some of the new functionalities like in-game weapon switching, as well as a new model format that supports the animated robes. There are leagl restrictions... But those aside, the techical differences between the games is the primary reason a lot of the content can't be transferred from one game to the other. As far as a NWN mod... I'd love to see a mod like this because the engine is a modified NWN engine and I prefer a more full, 3D experience to the top-down, isometric playstyle of the original NWN. However, you would run into the same problem as far as user-made content because NWN has custom toolsets that allow mods whereas KOTOR (both games) have no official support for expansions/mods because LA never intended for the games to be modded in addition to being SP-only games unlike NWN.

I wouldn't recommend buying it. I've had game-stopping bugs, in the same place, both pre and post-patch. And this script error was reported very early on, just not ever fixed. Basically I had to redo Telos to avoid it the 2nd time it occurred (the first time, on my first play through, I just stopped playing the game for a few weeks, didn't happen on my 2nd playthrough, but happened again, post-patch, on my 3rd, causing me to go back to a save on Peragus to avoid it - it's a scripting problem in the fight with the Exchange boss). The movie/music patch won't really improve gameplay at all, but it's delay (a few days becoming a few months, without word) definitely shows there's little to no support for this game at either Lucas or Obsidian, so the bugs that still exist will either never get fixed, or will be fixed by the gamers themselves. As for the story, it's ok as light side, until the end, then it falls to pieces. As darkside, it's completely childish, IMO. The influence system has a lot to do with this (do NICE things when certain people are around to make them more EVIL). The main story, IMO, isn't very Star Wars-esque (but some people love it), and the main NPC is perhaps my least favorite of all time (Kreia). I'd say if you loved KOTOR 1, you'll most likely like KOTOR 2, but be disappointed at more than a couple things (mostly near the end). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I couldn't agree more with this "review". The game has its moments, but overall, it is an amateur attempt at a SW game... Mostly because it appears Obsidian doesn't really understand SW -- At least, the classic version of it and is trying to go in a much too radical direction with it in this game that is only hampered by technical bugs that completely destroy the gameplay and any immersion they were going for in the first place. I mentioned some of these failings/constructive critisicms early on on the other forums, but got blasted by fanboys and fangirls of OE or SW itself, but the truth is this game will please those who really don't want substance in their gaming experience and will settle for "filler" that amounts to psuedo-intellectualism and "lite" philosophical analyzation (and I mean at the very base level). I know people are going to take this as an insult to their egos, but the game is trying so hard to be "deep" that it just comes off as pretenious in a lot of instances... Let alone makes no real sense given the context of the SW universe. I'd wait until it hits the bargain bin because with the Restoration Team's efforts officially on hold (probably indefinitely given the scope of the project) this game is not finished in every sense of the word (gameplay bugs aside) and unless you like paying full price for incomplete products, I suggest you wait.

There is a temporary fix on the Holowan labs by Stoffe -MK-. He tweaked the AI to be a little more responsive and think more and not just go after indiscriminate targets like they do in the Restoration Zone. It's not perfect, but it is better than what we currently have.

Also, the only real difference between EAX 4 and EAX 3 is a few positional enhancements that are mostly dirver enabled vs. hardware. The most recent Creative Drivers have EAX 4 even if your card (barring Sound Blaster Live! and earlier) doesn't officially say it supports it. This was one of Creative's clever little marketing gimmicks to get people who bought the early Audigys that only went up to EAX 3 to fork out the bucks for so-called improved hardware like the Audigy 2 ZS and others to get EAX 4.