Cantousent

I'm glad Gromnir is holding the fort for quest only XP. Mostly I'm just here to add one more voice to his position. I've been following this thread and a couple others dealing with combat XP. Since almost all arguments have already come out, take my comments that duplicate other posts simply as agreement. There are too many posts and threads to keep track of them all. First of all, I think the folks who cite more recent observation to claim that combat XP is great are making after the fact arguments. DnD had combat experience. It's been a staple for years, but that exact moment where one designer decided to impart XP for random killing created a prejudice that it was natural. Since that's been the norm for so long, it's hard to take arguments seriously that depend on direct observation about a current opinion that disregard habituation. On the other hand, I am sympathetic to folks who just love combat XP. I merely disagree with them that it's better. Second, XP is not 'first among equals' in the court of game rewards. It is king of the game reward court. I have long been an advocate of story based rewards, but I would never claim that story based rewards rise to the level of XP. Loot, achievements, titles, and the like are simply inferior to XP rewards. That isn't to say that some people might not prefer some of these rewards at any particular time, and perhaps have an inclination to seek any other specific rewards at various times, but XP is pervasive and has the single largest impact on gameplay. Granting XP as positive feedback trains the player to engage in that activity. So, having painted the process into a corner by fixating players on combat, developers were forced to face angry players of other inclinations by rewarding an increasingly large number of things, such as stealth, lockpicking, using attributes in dialogue, exploration, etc. Most of those rewards fall far short in the long run compared to combat, however. Unless you've created a lockpicking RPG, in which lock are ubiquitous and in need of picking, you simply won't have any other incidental positive feedback that even comes close to the sheer number of potential slaughter victims who provide fodder for XP. Anyhow, like I said, I'm mostly just here to add one more voice to folks who prefer the current philosophy behind quest only XP.

I haven't tried the monk and probably won't. I appreciate the practical observations about the monk, nonetheless. However, I will say in regards to Truemenace's post: if you play with two characters who fulfill the same *basic* role in combat, then there will be times when one feels extraneous. Just take MMORPGs as an example. In a five person instance, you're going to have one tank, one healer, and three dps. In a ten person raid, you're going to have two tanks, three healers, and five dps. In a 25 man raid, you're probably going to have 2 or 3 tanks, 4-6 healers, and the rest dps. In that dps mix, you'll want things like CC, interrupters, and specialty characters to take care of specific encounters. In a single player RPG, you can get by with two tanks mixed with dps and healing, but you're going to run the risk in any encounter that one of your special team characters will be extraneous. My take from Pop's original post is not that monks' abilities overlap with fighters but that monks are inferior to fighters in their main role and therefore are made extraneous by fighters in every situation.

I always maintain that game theory must always be tested by gameplay. So, actual gameplay accounts mean more to me than number crunching theory, which makes this thread a bit more useful. I'm more interested in Chanters in principle than Ciphers, but I am interested in the nitty gritty of observation when it comes to all of the classes. My real problem at this point is that the demo is clearly not meant to give us much more than a sneak peak at how combat, dialogue, and other things work in the game, *more or less.* I'm reaching the end of where the beta is of any use to me. I've already stopped playing it altogether, but I appreciate the threads that detail classes in ways that don't spoil story elements.

As an aside, it seems intuitive to me that Intelligence would naturally impact spells more than Might. I don't see a lot of folks complaining that Might is currently too weak. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue in this regard.

Seconded

Forget the game, how about the board bugs. Every time I click in the quick reply spot I get a pop up window of various sorts. I think the music shouldn't push the tone. It should accentuate it and help define it. I never thought much of the BG main theme because it always seemed overwrought to me, although I did enjoy some of the other music in the game. I don't really care one way or the other for the Dyrford music and I haven't been in enough combat to get a feel for the combat music, but I thought the opening theme was quite well done. It's music that can go anywhere. In BG, the opening theme pretty much said, "Yeah, you're a chosen one, Godspawn, and general badass who will kick over everyone's lemonade stand." I'd rather have something that says, "Maybe you'll be that badass the other guy just described, but maybe you'll be the guy in the shadows who steals the money from the lemonade stand owner or maybe you'll be the lemonade stand owner who just set a trap for that badass and that thief who don't realize there are some deadly asps waiting in the lockbox when they take it." "I also prefer the Icewind Dale soundtracks to the Baldur's Gate ones. Skeleton of a Town is my favourite track of all the IE music (closely followed by Deionarra's theme from PS:T)." Deionarra's theme is one of my favorite pieces from *any* game, ie or not.

I like that the opening music conveys a sense of mystery, which is great for a story driven game. I don't always want the music to jump out at me, but then again I liked the music from PS:T most of any IE game. ...maybe my favorite of any game altogether. In PS:T, the music that jumped out at me came at points of the game that were important or otherwise striking in and of themselves. The music helped create those moments and then then the music and the scene became intermingled in my recollection. I like the opening music quite a bit in PoE.

I've enjoyed the beta, but I think it's time to shelve it until release. The two issues I mentioned the developers said would not be hard to fix. I think one was already known and they had plans to do so before the beta came out, judging by the response. Character Creation: As someone mentioned in another thread, I'd prefer anything that impacts stat points to come before we allocate points. We'll know at the time we allocate points what our max points will be. We should be able to click and hold the increase and decrease buttons in assigning points. With over 50 points to spread, anything to make it faster would be nice. UI: The journal looks nice and clean. I assume that we'll get a better feel for the distinction between quests and tasks in the final game. Inventory is off-putting for some reason, maybe because we don't see individual inventory screens for each character, which makes it look like we can't carry much. I could get used to it, but I keep expecting to have some way to click into each individual character's inventory. As it is, eight slots seems meager, but the communal stash looks quite large. I think that we should be able to exit out of overland travel by closing the map window or clicking on our current location. As it is, it just seems unfinished that we need to hit esc to get off of the overland map if we decide to stay where we are. NPC interaction: I appreciate the use of profanity in a way that reflects genuine use. Not a lot of it, and what I encountered was mature in a 'mature' way rather than 'see, we're over 18 and so we can throw it out to look all adult.' I imagine some characters will be quite profane, either for effect or because, like some people in real life, it's just habituated behavior and they won't really consider it 'profane' per se. Combat: As always, I play each game on normal and then go on to bragging rights stuff if the game is good enough for replays. I didn't attack Nyfre and, in fact, helped her. At normal, I beat Medreth handily. The biggest thing is that, while I used some special abilities, the battle with Medreth and his follows with multiple companion boars was a straight-up slug fest. I'm not worried about that because I'm assuming the finished game will ease us into combat and train us in specific ways to look at special abilities, spells, and items. Music: I have to say I really like the opening music. Instead of the heavy handed 'epic' music we hear so often, the current music is melodic and conveys a feeling of mystery. There should be plenty of opportunity to put in something more 'epic' during the game. One thing I noticed is that quitting a game and going to the main menu didn't stop the current music or background noise, so both the opening music and the Dyrford music and background noise of chirping birds plays at the same time.

I take 'storyboarding' as something like Fallout: New Vegas or Elder Scrolls games where the character goes through a process of answering questions about his past to assign attributes, skills, and the like to create the character. In the current system, the player selects things from menus before the game begins. As I understand the OP, he'd rather have the player begin the game, maybe select an avatar and other aesthetics, and then actually create the character build after the game begins. At least that's how I'm taking it, but some of that is from reading a point he made in another thread.

I voted yes, but I would put it more as "yes, *if done right!*" I think storyboarding as a way to guide new players (or even for ol' skool players who like to tinker with such things) is a great idea. I would agree with the benefits you outline generally, but I would add that we must be able to override the story board option if we so choose, which I think is part of your idea anyway, and we should be able to fine tune the storyboard at the end as I've seen it done in most games. The story board idea could judiciously use background lore also to help *immerse* the player in the world, which I think is what you were getting across in your second point. However, I don't think they should take the time unless they can take the time to do it right. A few lame questions and slapping our statistics in there won't do. Make the storyboard a delicious appetizer to whet our hunger for the main dish, if that makes sense.

I like the idea much better this way. Setting them at an average point would be a gentle way to *encourage* casual players to have a more balanced build. Players who like to tinker can then min/max if they want. I think players should be more or less free to play how they want to play, but players who like a lot of freedom will look for it and they'll find out right away they can reduce stats from the initial setting.

I'll keep this short, so pretend that I ranted on for a few paragraphs to get a feel for my irritation level. I haven't been following PoE because I don't want to spoil the game, but I figured that I'd take a peek at the beta. I've spent maybe an hour on it so far. There was a minor issue that I pointed out earlier about being able to access the main menu during character creation. I see now that the inn keeper provides the ol' skool method of 'hiring an adventurer.' I typically like to click on stuff and take a gander at things in shops and so I right clicked on the various adventurers, most of whom were out of my price range. Left clicking on the level One adventurer, since I had the ducats for the transaction, took me to the character creation screen, which, once again, *requires* me to finish the creation process and, then, no chance to back out of the purchase! If I'm doing it wrong and I could get out of the process, the UI should be more intuitive. If I can't, it's absolutely idiotic that one click for hiring results in an automatic purchase, something that isn't true for buying arms, armor, spells, or any other transaction I've found so far. We should be able to cancel hiring an adventurer. If this were identified as a bug and I didn't notice it, please disregard. If this were addressed by someone else's thread earlier, please just merge my post in as support for the OP. BTW: in searching to see if someone had already posted about this, I did find a thread about using templates and viable builds. Please don't make characters template/prestige based. A little guidance sounds cool, but rewarding experimentation is better. Some builds will undoubtedly be better, but that doesn't matter as long as any build *can* win. Saying it's balanced so all builds are viable shouldn't mean that all builds have to be equal.

Okay, thanks.

I hate starting a new thread for this, and I realize I might be doing something wrong, but this reflects actual experience. My wife nags me about the sound from my games and so I sometimes turn off game sounds. I use the in-game sound options for it. I don't want to turn off my system sound because I use it for a variety of reasons, including playing movies on the TV while I play a game concurrently on my monitor, which means I *can't* turn off the system sound. Later, when it's not an issue, I turn the in-game sound up again. So, Last night I turned the sound off in the game and then I started a new game later when I could turn the sound on again. I went to character creation but I can't access the menu at character creation (at least as it seems to me) and I don't seem to be able to back out of character creation. Anyhow, it might be frivolous, but I thought I'd mention that I personally think that being able to get to the main menu from just about any point in the game (excepting load screens of course), would be great. If it's a known issue that I didn't see in the update, I apologize. Likewise, if it's something someone else mentioned this issue, I beg pardon and ask that you simply merge my post into his or her thread as support for the original poster.

I didn't know where else to ask this and I didn't want to bug Fionavar: I see that Wasteland is early access on STEAM. How will we receive our copies of it, for those of us who bought in at that particular tier? I neither expect nor desire early access. I'm just curious how it will work.

Hey, you should be able to fill out this information in the survey after you complete your checkout. There is a section for the memorial stone text. Thanks. I just went and looked around until I found it. I overlooked it before, but it was easy once I started.

I did the fulfillment and it worked smoothly. I'm just wondering when we'll put in our information regarding things like the tombstone. I'm using my dad's name and a short message of six or seven words to honor him. It's important to me that I get it right and that I can visit the area and see it properly in the game. Will that be handled later by email, or will I have to come to the forum to check these out. I don't really frequent the forum these days through lack of time.

Well, it's actually gotten to be a bit rainy here. I passed a crazy accident in the canyon involving several cars, a couple of them crunched pretty bad, and a firehydrant that was knocked out of the ground. Police, Fire, and ambulences. I hope nobody died.

It's so tough living in Southern California... hahaha Sorry, it *is* sprinkling down here.

I'll answer some of those question for you, mel. :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon: I did respond, but only to explain that I think he thought one of my messages pertained to him but it really didn't and that the last time I checked the board did allow people to be blocked. I also tried to say that, since it was a misunderstanding that he would not be angry but that on the other hand I simply wouldn't stop posting. I didn't do it to piss him off, but I also don't think he read it. lol I don't know if he were successful, but I *do* get a 'sexist internet stereotyping from a certain narrator in this thread. :Cant's shifty eye-con: I won't name names and it doesn't matter. He's either an alt or someone new. If he's new, then I don't want to discourage him. If he's an alt, I don't care... unless he's Eldar, in which case I'm confused. Cantousent is certainly no one special compared to most of the other regulars here. Eldar was a **** who would get pissed off and rampage from time to time. They are not the same person. These questions have been answered and next, on What You Did Today, we'll be delving into the life of some different member. Perhaps even *you,* mel! Bwahahahaha Either that or Gorth. I mean, the guy feeds lizards in a land where half of the living things are poisonous, and that included the human population. Or Fionavar. Dude knows his wine.

I agree, ngreennz. Being Catholic myself, I want something new. The problem is that the Catholic Church provides a good template for a hierarchical religious structure. I don't know what the devs are going to do, and they probably don't listen to me anyway :Cant's rueful grin icon: but they'll probably have at least something like the Catholic church. But it would be good if maybe the nature of religion in the world isn't so consolodated that something as large as the Catholic Church exists. Maybe something more along the lines of Islam and Judaism where there are various holy men and teachers but no one overarching power speaking for a huge swath of the population. Of course with soul magic and established divine entities, maybe it's all kinds of funky.

EDIT: I went off on you Mal before I read it properly. Well... not a real flame, but maybe like an easybake oven or something. lol

Geez, I remember when I had a little street cred around this joint. lol Seriously, though, you and I started here at almost the exact same time, Gorth, and I think I have fewer posts altogether in all the manifestations of Eldar. On the other hand, angry and drunken Eldar make a lot more incoherent posts than you, so it all evens out. hehe

Too funny: A PM from someone I will not name. Wouldn't matter anyhow, as it's a member with only one post. "How about you stop trolling the forums? Obsidian DOES want input from all of us and not just some of us. I was trying to help others with focus on critical thinking. I wasn't asking others not to post, but I'll make a special exception in your case. 4612 posts, really? It seems to me that you don't have that much to say. Just that much to criticize others about. How about you let Obsidian do their job, stop trying to be one of them, and let others post in peace. If there is a way to ignore other people I'm going to find it so I can ignore you. Please do not respond or reply to my comments." I take it that this is the opposite of fanmail? hehe

I was thinking all morning about this, and I had an idea. It's not really original, as some form of it has been floating around in these threads the whole time. The argument is between worship=power and power independent of worship. Obsidz could simply include both ideas, but the plan to accommodate all parties isn't always ideal. It's more important that the game is good than the devs accommodate my ideas. So I reject a simple approach that gives everyone what he wants because it might mean we ultimately don't get the one thing we want: a great game. ...But the argument itself might be beneficial. Many folks, such as Morgulon and somna above, seem to entertain a variety of ideas their own preference notwithstanding. Why not make the world truly vibrant and realistic by putting in competing evidence? It gives an organic source of debate grown straight out of the setting. Even better, don't give it parity. By that, I mean, make the evidence clear and compelling that worship equates to power. Fine. That's a great basis from which to push back at the idea. Then, give some evidence, subtle and difficult to find but equally compelling, that worship need not always equate to power. It's like Newtonian physics and quantum physics. Newtonian physics work well in human time and scale, but there was evidence of something beyond that. By making Worship=power the standard, you're setting up something familiar, giving the number crunchers a reliable way to calculate most of the power, and providing an assumptive framework that functions just fine for the bulk of in-game society. By giving real evidence, albeit difficult to find, to the contrary, you're providing some mystery, giving reason for investigation and debate, and making a whole spread of viable quests. Anyhow, just a thought. I'm already getting into wall of text territory, so I'll leave it at that.